[BFritz]

I was watcing TV today (I think it was a news station up here, but might have been national), and they were interviewing two soldiers who served in Iraq. One soldier said that America can't remain a superpower in the world if we stay in Iraq, and he listed reasons such as money spent, lives lost, other countries losing respect for the US due to poor planning, and one or two other reasons.

I didn't think that the failure of the war could have this big of an effect, but what do you think?

[vundy33]

I dont think the war is a failure at all...Iraqis are able to vote for who they want to and are able to make decisions on there own for the first time in decades. They never have to fear Saddam or his sons again. IMO that is not a failed war. Did the guy mention what countries he thought had lost respect for us?

[thecavemaster]

One kid stands on the playground and says, "I am strong because I can beat the rest of you up...and I have more money that any of you; also, from my birth and because of my birth I am morally superior to you and know just how you should organize and run your lives to maximize my position here on the playground, which, I think, it best for you and your future anyway."

Question: if you are not that kid, or gaining a lot of benefit because you are "in good" with that kid, do you like that kid?

[vundy33]

Well, I know that most Iraqis like that kid. I know most of the people on this site are going to disagree with me but its the truth.

[thecavemaster]

Well, I know that most Iraqis like that kid. I know most of the people on this site are going to disagree with me but its the truth.

The "surge" has drastically reduced the levels of violence and allowed a lot of rebuilding of infrastructure. However, the last poll that I saw still suggested that the majority of Iraqis were ready for US troops to leave.

[BFritz]

The "surge" has drastically reduced the levels of violence and allowed a lot of rebuilding of infrastructure. However, the last poll that I saw still suggested that the majority of Iraqis were ready for US troops to leave.

Agreed, and they wouldn't let insurgents keep hiding among the common people and killing the US troops.

Neither of you mentioned the billions of dollars or thousands of lives lost, so how big of an impact will that have?

[vundy33]

I don't know any stats on how much money has been lost, but it is sure to be alot. When you say thousands of lifes lost you make it sound like it's alot...There has just been 3,923 U.S. casualties in Iraq, 3,215 of them were in-combat. What hurts us is the number that has been injured...28,870. I've said it a thousand times, war is war, people die. Remember, it could be a lot worse.

[BFritz]

I don't know any stats on how much money has been lost, but it is sure to be alot. When you say thousands of lifes lost you make it sound like it's alot...There has just been 3,923 U.S. casualties in Iraq, 3,215 of them were in-combat. What hurts us is the number that has been injured...28,870. I've said it a thousand times, war is war, people die. Remember, it could be a lot worse.

486 billion dollars as of 7:12 tonight and still going up.................


http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar_home

[thecavemaster]

I don't know any stats on how much money has been lost, but it is sure to be alot. When you say thousands of lifes lost you make it sound like it's alot...There has just been 3,923 U.S. casualties in Iraq, 3,215 of them were in-combat. What hurts us is the number that has been injured...28,870. I've said it a thousand times, war is war, people die. Remember, it could be a lot worse.

"It is not ours to question why; it is ours to do and die." Must we accept war simply because those with wealth and power tell us it is necessary? The ones who tell us who our enemies are are seldom the ones to fight and to die.

[vundy33]

"It is not ours to question why; it is ours to do and die." Must we accept war simply because those with wealth and power tell us it is necessary? The ones who tell us who our enemies are are seldom the ones to fight and to die.

We have no choice but to except it...the last part is definetly true though. I wish it was like back in the Civil War when generals would get out there and fight...If only George Bush really would fly a jet like he acted like he did in his big "mission accomplished" speech of May 03'.

[thecavemaster]

We have no choice but to except it...the last part is definetly true though. I wish it was like back in the Civil War when generals would get out there and fight...If only George Bush really would fly a jet like he acted like he did in his big "mission accomplished" speech of May 03'.

Jim Crow laws in the South in years gone by... a group of people decided not to accept them, and their choice changed things. Were enough Americans to raise placards and voices in protest, instead of going to the malls and restaurants and shaking their heads, we would have to accept no war.

[EKY Sportster]

The mission of conquering Iraq was over in 2003, but the police patrol and keeping law and order will go on for many years. We can either leave or stay. Given the circumstances of Iran, I think we have to stay until Iraq is stabilized. But I'd love nothing better than to not have invaded in the first place. That is where we screwed up. That is where the credibility was lost and continues to be lost. It all goes back to the cavemasters' playground analogy. We lost credibility by taking action on our own, against world opinion and without any real justification. Iraq was not the threat when we invaded, it was Afghanistan. But Iraq has taken center stage and Afghanistan has been forgotten to some extent and we have paid for it. And where is Osama Bin Laden?? We should have gotten him by now. If we had poured troops into Afghanistan at the same levels as we have Iraq, we would probably have gotten him by now. But now he is most likely in Pakistan and that place is a mess.

As to the cost in lives, one is too many. But as wars go, the casualties have been light. Check the stats with other wars.

The big deal with me is that the war is costing a fortune, draining our military personnel, and the upside doesn't come close to matching the downside. We should never have invaded to start with. But now that we are there, what do we do, hand it over to Iran??

[BFritz]

The mission of conquering Iraq was over in 2003, but the police patrol and keeping law and order will go on for many years. We can either leave or stay. Given the circumstances of Iran, I think we have to stay until Iraq is stabilized. But I'd love nothing better than to not have invaded in the first place. That is where we screwed up. That is where the credibility was lost and continues to be lost. It all goes back to the cavemasters' playground analogy. We lost credibility by taking action on our own, against world opinion and without any real justification. Iraq was not the threat when we invaded, it was Afghanistan. But Iraq has taken center stage and Afghanistan has been forgotten to some extent and we have paid for it. And where is Osama Bin Laden?? We should have gotten him by now. If we had poured troops into Afghanistan at the same levels as we have Iraq, we would probably have gotten him by now. But now he is most likely in Pakistan and that place is a mess.

As to the cost in lives, one is too many. But as wars go, the casualties have been light. Check the stats with other wars.

The big deal with me is that the war is costing a fortune, draining our military personnel, and the upside doesn't come close to matching the downside. We should never have invaded to start with. But now that we are there, what do we do, hand it over to Iran??

It's different because it's not like the lives were lost in major, significant battles and killed by many soldiers on a battlefield. A ton of them were killed by just suicide bombers and whatever else.

[vundy33]

More by IED's...what's the difference in getting killed by a suicide bomber rather than in a big battle? There has been huge firefights in Iraq...dont really get that one. :confused:

[EKY Sportster]

It's different because it's not like the lives were lost in major, significant battles and killed by many soldiers on a battlefield. A ton of them were killed by just suicide bombers and whatever else.

Not sure I understand the point you are trying to make. But you are correct that it is different. But it still doesn't change anything. When you conquer a country you have to occupy it until it is stable. That is what we have done to ourselves. We have created this vacuum and now we must see it through or Iran will fill it for us. Would have been better for us (in terms of dealing with Iran, our military power and economically) to have left Hussein there. We could then have focused more on Afghanistan and catching Bin Laden and have saved who knows how much money in tax payer dollars, not to mention less dead and wounded soldiers.

[BFritz]

Not sure I understand the point you are trying to make. But you are correct that it is different. But it still doesn't change anything. When you conquer a country you have to occupy it until it is stable. That is what we have done to ourselves. We have created this vacuum and now we must see it through or Iran will fill it for us. Would have been better for us (in terms of dealing with Iran, our military power and economically) to have left Hussein there. We could then have focused more on Afghanistan and catching Bin Laden and have saved who knows how much money in tax payer dollars, not to mention less dead and wounded soldiers.

I meant that in, other wars, soldiers lined up, we killed them, they killed us, but at least it was both ways. In this war, it's us having small bases, maybe some mobile, and one person would be a suicide bomber and kill many of our soldiers.

[vundy33]

I meant that in, other wars, soldiers lined up, we killed them, they killed us, but at least it was both ways. In this war, it's us having small bases, maybe some mobile, and one person would be a suicide bomber and kill many of our soldiers.

It's like that in Iraq...not every U.S. death is the result of a IED or suicide bomber. Alot of them come from firefights. I don't think we have lined up and fought since the civil war.

[BFritz]

It's like that in Iraq...not every U.S. death is the result of a IED or suicide bomber. Alot of them come from firefights. I don't think we have lined up and fought since the civil war.

WWI and WWII- Korean War, Vietnam War, which only the first two are really line-up and fight, but at least we knew who the enemy was and we were out engaging them in the jungles and battles. The firefights are similar, but still I think there's probly more troops killed in suicide bombings than in firefights.

[BlueBells]

I dont think the war is a failure at all...Iraqis are able to vote for who they want to and are able to make decisions on there own for the first time in decades. They never have to fear Saddam or his sons again. IMO that is not a failed war. Did the guy mention what countries he thought had lost respect for us?

The United States, without the approval of the UN, invaded a soveragn nation, that had not declared war on us. It is considered an illegal invasion and illegal occupation buy the rules of the UN Charter, in doing so, the following countries HAVE lost respect for us:
France
Morroco
Canada
Germany
England
Australia
Spain

Why over the last 2 decades were we willing to do business with Iraq and support them with arms, ammo, and with a handshake from Donald Rumsfield when Iran was considered the Great Evil.
And by the way, the chemical weapons that were used against the Kurds were supplied by the ole US of A. The same weapons of mass destruction that we supplied, we failed to find after our unlawful invasion. hh:

[vundy33]

The United States, without the approval of the UN, invaded a soveragn nation, that had not declared war on us. It is considered an illegal invasion and illegal occupation buy the rules of the UN Charter, in doing so, the following countries HAVE lost respect for us:
France
Morroco
Canada
Germany
England
Australia
Spain

Why over the last 2 decades were we willing to do business with Iraq and support them with arms, ammo, and with a handshake from Donald Rumsfield when Iran was considered the Great Evil.
And by the way, the chemical weapons that were used against the Kurds were supplied by the ole US of A. The same weapons of mass destruction that we supplied, we failed to find after our unlawful invasion. hh:

Your point?

[vundy33]

WWI and WWII- Korean War, Vietnam War, which only the first two are really line-up and fight, but at least we knew who the enemy was and we were out engaging them in the jungles and battles. The firefights are similar, but still I think there's probly more troops killed in suicide bombings than in firefights.

Man I can tell you that there are not that many troops killed in suicide bombings...IED's kill more than anything else.

[vundy33]

The United States, without the approval of the UN, invaded a soveragn nation, that had not declared war on us. It is considered an illegal invasion and illegal occupation buy the rules of the UN Charter, in doing so, the following countries HAVE lost respect for us:
France
Morroco
Canada
Germany
England
Australia
Spain

Why over the last 2 decades were we willing to do business with Iraq and support them with arms, ammo, and with a handshake from Donald Rumsfield when Iran was considered the Great Evil.
And by the way, the chemical weapons that were used against the Kurds were supplied by the ole US of A. The same weapons of mass destruction that we supplied, we failed to find after our unlawful invasion. hh:

Screw France. IMO England has not lost respect for us...How can you say that when the continue to occupy the country along with us...Australia and Canada must have not lost that much respect for us either because their troops continue to occupy Iraq also. Why do so many of you insist on bad-mouthing your country...its like some of you try to find the bad parts instead of the good parts. I could set here and tell you all of the good things that have come out of the Iraq War but none of you would think about replying about that.

[BlueBells]

Screw France. IMO England has not lost respect for us...How can you say that when the continue to occupy the country along with us...Australia and Canada must have not lost that much respect for us either because their troops continue to occupy Iraq also. Why do so many of you insist on bad-mouthing your country...its like some of you try to find the bad parts instead of the good parts. I could set here and tell you all of the good things that have come out of the Iraq War but none of you would think about replying about that.

Screw France?????? The county of France saved the Revolution, do you forget the events of 1781? When the French blockaded the Chesepake Bay saving our revolution? And handing the British empire their first major defeat in winning our independance!! Would we be a nation today without the aid of France????? Australia has less than a regiment there and are on their way out. Canada has no more major combat contigent remaining.
Something good about the US right now???????? We have started a civil war. The Iraq people will be paying the bill for for the next several decades.

Let me guess, we are fighting terrorism???? In Iraq???? When the terrorist are clearing in Pakastain and Afghanastain. 17 of the 19 hijackers (9-11) were Saudis. Why didnt we invaide Saudia Arabia??????

[BlueBells]

Your point?

My Point??????? What????? I quoted you in response to your question about the US and respect. Chill. :Thumbs:

[vundy33]

Yeah screw France. Iraq harbored and supported terrorists, they're still there. Just because they were Saudis doesn't mean we should invade SA, Al-Queda was set-up and established in Iraq. Iraq is not in a civil war, and don't start bringing up all these sources that you know of because unless they were there then they don't have a clue what they're talking about.

[BlueBells]

Yeah screw France. Iraq harbored and supported terrorists, they're still there. Just because they were Saudis doesn't mean we should invade SA, Al-Queda was set-up and established in Iraq. Iraq is not in a civil war, and don't start bringing up all these sources that you know of because unless they were there then they don't have a clue what they're talking about.

Sourses that I know?????? What abou the sourses you know! I know several that have been there from officers to the inlisted.
As far as Iraq harboring terrorists.............Clearly, what we have done to the country of Iraq and its people, is in fact considered a terrorist act in itself. And our continued unlawful occupation is creating a nation of terrorist of 50 different flavors. What about the 200Thousand + dead and maimed Irqi men, women and children, by all means, lets not forget them.
I say for everyone that supports this, Inlist and make a difference. If your not able, convience your children, your mother, your father, your brother, your sister to fight for the cause of liberty that only the Iraqis can solve.
Viva Herr Bush and this administration.

This is my last post. Have a good weekend.

[thecavemaster]

So, let us get this straight: unless one has been to Iraq, has access to privileged information, one cannot know anything about the situation that led up to the war or anything in the aftermath of the decision to go to war? Sounds somewhat like a police type state to me. Why is it necessary to "screw France" to anybody that does not happen to support US policy, or who happens to openly criticize the United States?

[vundy33]

I'm not going to continue to argue with you, you cleary have no idea what your talking about. I was in Iraq for 15 months of ****, then when I come back people like you are going on and on about how bad our country is and all this other ****. I support the war, and I always will. I suggest you enlist, then hopefully you will see for yourself what really goes on. I don't know how you can say that we have committed a terrorist act on Iraq. When the war was declared over, about 1% of the country had power. Within 60 days, 80% had power. Saddam's regime drained the wetlands just outside of Mosul just before our invasion, causing thousands of Iraqis to be without jobs. Now the wetlands are thriving. Good to know you have posted your last post, I'm glad I don't have to try to decipher all of that bull**** you have typed now.

[vundy33]

So, let us get this straight: unless one has been to Iraq, has access to privileged information, one cannot know anything about the situation that led up to the war or anything in the aftermath of the decision to go to war? Sounds somewhat like a police type state to me. Why is it necessary to "screw France" to anybody that does not happen to support US policy, or who happens to openly criticize the United States?

I didn't say that. He continued to bash our country, throwing out stuff that he has no idea about. He needs to back up his claims. I was just correcting him. And the comment about France, thats just my opinion. Did you notice I didn't say screw Germany or screw Spain? I just don't like France...I have my reasons.

[BFritz]

Man I can tell you that there are not that many troops killed in suicide bombings...IED's kill more than anything else.

I wasn't even thinking but that's what I meant to, and that's not a traditional war or people shooting and killing each other.