[vundy33]

Thats amazing isn't it?

I can hold my breath for nearly 2 1/2 - 3 minutes under water..... but the stress associated would definately lower it. Yet, death can not occur from water boarding, because its controlled and you have plenty of time to breathe in between the cups of water being poured. However, I wish that we'd use a water hose lol...

I meant that on the third stage...I lasted 16 minutes on the first stage. The third stage is a differant story, your face is wrapped up with a sweaty rag and it's wet. Feels like your breathing in water.

[ronald_reagan]

I meant that on the third stage...I lasted 16 minutes on the first stage. The third stage is a differant story, your face is wrapped up with a sweaty rag and it's wet. Feels like your breathing in water.

So I take it that you're a special op??

[vundy33]

No, certain divisions of the Armed Forces go through certain training. Especially if your getting ready to go into combat. Before I went to Iraq I experienced it. Most of the 101st had to go through it.

[ronald_reagan]

No, certain divisions of the Armed Forces go through certain training. Especially if your getting ready to go into combat. Before I went to Iraq I experienced it. Most of the 101st had to go through it.

Thanks for your service!!! :notworthy

[DevilsWin]

No, certain divisions of the Armed Forces go through certain training. Especially if your getting ready to go into combat. Before I went to Iraq I experienced it. Most of the 101st had to go through it.

Thanks Vundy33 for clearing this up. But most of all, Thank you for your service!:Thumbs: alute:

[ronald_reagan]

Thanks Vundy33 for clearing this up. But most of all, Thank you for your service!:Thumbs: alute:

great post!

can't thank these guys and gals enough. they're the reason for our freedom!

vundy33 ---> :redboxer:

[vundy33]

Ha thanks guys. So, DevilsWin, I know your a vet, are you for or against water-boarding?

[DevilsWin]

I am against it. Torture is torture whether it's Water Boarding or whatever. America has to hold the High Ground on these issues if we expect the rest of the world to respect us.

We can't have a policy of "Do as I say not as I do".

[ronald_reagan]

I am against it. Torture is torture whether it's Water Boarding or whatever. America has to hold the High Ground on these issues if we expect the rest of the world to respect us.

We can't have a policy of "Do as I say not as I do".

The rest of the world respect us? :confused:

You honestly think if we treat Al-Qaeda with 'dignity', they'll have a change of heart. This is hate thats rooted in the very book they read, and extends back throughout history. We don't hear France talking bad about us because we waterboard. We don't even hear Al-Qaeda talkin about this.... Its only Americans that are.

[thecavemaster]

RR... You keep qualifying, basically stating that torture is o.k. if the group of people being tortured are vile enough or dangerous enough according to "those in the know." I am sure Al Qaeda uses torture because they practice religious poison. However, I do not wish to resort to torture in order to repay torture.

[ronald_reagan]

RR... You keep qualifying, basically stating that torture is o.k. if the group of people being tortured are vile enough or dangerous enough according to "those in the know." I am sure Al Qaeda uses torture because they practice religious poison. However, I do not wish to resort to torture in order to repay torture.

Thats fine. how many times are you going to repeat that?

I mean seriously Cavemaster, and your last line is my exact thought.

Do you think we waterboard for the fun of it? No. We waterboard to extract info, its NOT to repay them for anything. its to STOP them from doing something. We bomb as repayment.

You better hurry and just agree to disagree, or you're going to find that you're talking to yourself.

[thecavemaster]

Again, RR, you accuse others of that which you yourself engage in. And, your petty threats of silence are as ridiculous as your cartoons.

[ronald_reagan]

Again, RR, you accuse others of that which you yourself engage in. And, your petty threats of silence are as ridiculous as your cartoons.

It wasn't a threat. I can't keep going round and round on an issue as silly as this. I'll waterboard. You won't. Its said, its done, its not going to change.

[thecavemaster]

Water boarding? I thought we were talking about whether brownies were better with pecans or without pecans. You'll pecan and I won't. There...it's said, it's done. I'm out.

[ronald_reagan]

I'm out.

:Clap:

[vundy33]

I don't classify that as torture. Torture is getting put in a 50 gallon jug with the lid locked on in 30-40 degree weather with about a half an inch of space at the top to breath. That's not a torture tactic, it's just to prepare soldiers incase there heli or other vehicle goes down in water. But to get back on subject, I think water-boarding is a essential tactic. The people we do it to don't die, they just think there going to.

[DevilsWin]

It wasn't a threat. I can't keep going round and round on an issue as silly as this. I'll waterboard. You won't. Its said, its done, its not going to change.

If that be the case, you shall never hold the high moral ground and are no better than those you practice these methods against. Its just that simple. America, as Reagan put it, should be a "Shining City on a Hill". And the methods you so valianty condone vastly erode the foundation of that very idea and instead create a dark city of doom and peril.

[ronald_reagan]

If that be the case, you shall never hold the high moral ground and are no better than those you practice these methods against. Its just that simple. America, as Reagan put it, should be a "Shining City on a Hill". And the methods you so valianty condone vastly erode the foundation of that very idea and instead create a dark city of doom and peril.

It wasn't Reagan who 'put it' that way. It was John Winthrop, who by the way, mentions the almighty God and the role of this country UNDER him. Reagan was only quoting him. don't quote reagan, unless you agree with him. And its already assured that you don't.

For we must consider that we shall be as a City upon a hill. The eyes of all people are upon us. Soe that if we shall deal falsely with our God in this work we have undertaken, and so cause him to withdraw his present help from us, we shall be made a story and a byword throughout the world.

Let me make this as crystal clear as earthy possible, and so that you can understand it. I'll waterboard, and I'll be waterboarded. If the 'terrorists' only waterboard us back.. then have at it. The guys that 'waterboard' the terrorists, have ALL been waterboarded themselves.

What do you not get?? You want to say that I'm lowering myself to their level?? They kill us by torture.. we obtain intelligence which saves others lives by pouring water on their face, NOT killing them?? Thats the same??? Thats torture?? I've been held UNDER water by friends and family... them terrorists!!! Those beasts!!!

The city upon a hill is NOT a good thing these days. Its light draws illegals in like moths, and provides visibility for terrorists to attack us.

You keep up the same talking points, trying to say that i'm wrong. Ok. I am. I want them dead. I want MORE than waterboarding. but since this thread is ABOUT waterboarding, I'll just stop there and say simply.. I agree with it strongly at this point. It has saved many lives, and hasn't cost a single one.

Done with you now. :moon:

[thecavemaster]

RR...take your whiffle ball and go on home...mommy's calling...

[ronald_reagan]

RR...take your whiffle ball and go on home...mommy's calling...

I miss those days...

[thecavemaster]

Ain't it the truth? Everybody trying to figure out just which holes to grab to get the most action on the pitch... Arguing over whether or not a ball hit into the garden is a homerun... Playing until dark then going home hungry enough to eat from a trough... Ah...good ol' days...

[DevilsWin]

It wasn't Reagan who 'put it' that way. It was John Winthrop, who by the way, mentions the almighty God and the role of this country UNDER him. Reagan was only quoting him. don't quote reagan, unless you agree with him. And its already assured that you don't.



Let me make this as crystal clear as earthy possible, and so that you can understand it. I'll waterboard, and I'll be waterboarded. If the 'terrorists' only waterboard us back.. then have at it. The guys that 'waterboard' the terrorists, have ALL been waterboarded themselves.

What do you not get?? You want to say that I'm lowering myself to their level?? They kill us by torture.. we obtain intelligence which saves others lives by pouring water on their face, NOT killing them?? Thats the same??? Thats torture?? I've been held UNDER water by friends and family... them terrorists!!! Those beasts!!!

The city upon a hill is NOT a good thing these days. Its light draws illegals in like moths, and provides visibility for terrorists to attack us.

You keep up the same talking points, trying to say that i'm wrong. Ok. I am. I want them dead. I want MORE than waterboarding. but since this thread is ABOUT waterboarding, I'll just stop there and say simply.. I agree with it strongly at this point. It has saved many lives, and hasn't cost a single one.

Done with you now. :moon:

It has been said time and time again that information extracted under duress and torture is by and large not reliable. The detainee will say what his captors want to hear whether it be true or not. :howdy:

[ronald_reagan]

It has been said time and time again that information extracted under duress and torture is by and large not reliable. The detainee will say what his captors want to hear whether it be true or not. :howdy:

Thank Goodness KSM's info was reliable...

[ronald_reagan]

The February 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center in New York City
A failed "shoe bomber" operation
The October 2002 attack in Kuwait
The nightclub bombing in Bali, Indonesia
A plan for a "second wave" of attacks on major U.S. landmarks to be set in the spring or summer of 2002 after the 9/11 attacks, which includes more hijackings of commercial airlines and having them flown into various buildings in the U.S. including the Library Tower in Los Angeles, the Sears Tower in Chicago, the Plaza Bank building in Seattle and the Empire State Building in New York
Plots to attack oil tankers and U.S. naval ships in the Straits of Hormuz, the Straits of Gibraltar and in Singapore
A plan to blow up the Panama Canal
Plans to assassinate Jimmy Carter
A plot to blow up suspension bridges in New York City
A plan to destroy the Sears Tower in Chicago with burning fuel trucks
Plans to "destroy" Heathrow Airport, Canary Wharf and Big Ben in London
A planned attack on "many" nightclubs in Thailand
A plot targeting the New York Stock Exchange and other U.S. financial targets
A plan to destroy buildings in Eilat, Israel
Plans to destroy U.S. embassies in Indonesia, Australia and Japan in 2002.
Plots to destroy Israeli embassies in India, Azerbaijan, the Philippines and Australia
Surveying and financing an attack on an Israeli El-Al flight from Bangkok
Sending several "mujahideen" into Israel to survey "strategic targets" with the intention of attacking them
The November 2002 suicide bombing of a hotel in Mombasa, Kenya
The failed attempt to shoot down an Israeli passenger jet leaving Mombasa airport in Kenya
Plans to attack U.S. targets in South Korea
Providing financial support for a plan to attack U.S., British and Jewish targets in Turkey
Surveillance of U.S. nuclear power plants in order to attack them
A plot to attack NATO's headquarters in Europe
Planning and surveillance in a 1995 plan (the "Bojinka Operation") to bomb 12 American passenger jets
The planned assassination attempt against then-U.S. President Bill Clinton during a mid-1990s trip to the Philippines.
"Shared responsibility" for a plot to kill Pope John Paul II
Plans to assassinate Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf
An attempt to attack a U.S. oil company in Sumatra, Indonesia, "owned by the Jewish former [U.S.] Secretary of State Henry Kissinger"
The beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl

[ronald_reagan]

Lets just say one confession he made out of those listed, saved 1 life... it wouldn't have been worth it to pour some water over his covered face?

There's a difference between you and I... I believe in lesser evils when needed. Which is why I vote republican often.

[DevilsWin]

Lets just say one confession he made out of those listed, saved 1 life... it wouldn't have been worth it to pour some water over his covered face?

There's a difference between you and I... I believe in lesser evils when needed. Which is why I vote republican often.

So you put faith in evil acts then. Very Classy RR! I'm not suprised.

[ronald_reagan]

So you put faith in evil acts then. Very Classy RR! I'm not suprised.

Yep. Sure do. The nuking of Japan was a necessary evil. As it voting between today's candidates for president.

You still didn't answer my question though. Not the first time thats happened.

[thecavemaster]

The bombing of Japan was a necessary evil. Does it ever occur to you that historians from other lands do not judge thusly? Or, is your view so strictly nationalistic that it cannot and does not allow for a more 360' view of the isssue?

[ronald_reagan]

The bombing of Japan was a necessary evil. Does it ever occur to you that historians from other lands do not judge thusly? Or, is your view so strictly nationalistic that it cannot and does not allow for a more 360' view of the isssue?

Its a personal judgement. And a very educated guess on the subject.

And yes, it does occur to me that others disagree. I just choose not to stick my thumb into the wind to say which way its blowing whenever I speak my mind. I have close friends who think we shouldn't have. But in the long run, it surely saved more lives than it took.

The death toll was 220,000 between the two bombs dropped. Up til then, and Japan was going STRONG.... The death toll for the entire war, was close to 70,000,000 and rising rapidly at that point. How many deaths occurred after that? Very very little. So was it a bad thing? sure. But in my judgement, it saved many millions of lives... and possibly my own grandfathers (plural) who both were fighting in the region.

The japanese had killed nearly 20,000,000 chinese civilians and militia members up this point....

There's always going to be two sides to the story, but no one, and I mean NO ONE can tell me that however evil it may have been.. didn't save MANY more lives than it took. "All in all, not bad.. not bad at all"

[thecavemaster]

How do you know how many total lives were lost in the aftermath of a radioactive explosion? And, let's say it did save lives. Let's say North Korea or Iran suggest that they want nuclear weapons as a way to save lives (peace through strength). Is American history such a tale of unmitigated goodness that we can take high enough ground to lecture them on nuclear capacity?