[thecavemaster]

"The only people on earth who do not see Christ and his teachings as nonviolent are Christians." -Ghandi

Blessing the poor, cursing the rich. Blessing the mournful, cursing the pleasure seeking merry maker? Blessing the peacemaker, saying woes on those who use the sword (violence to achieve goals). Perhaps the only people who do not see Christ and his teachings (about most everything) are Christians? There is now no Christian nation on the earth...never has been, never will be in this current space/time world. Tired of hearing windtunnels spout otherwise.

[Fenix]

I'm not sure if I understand the intent here. Could you elaborate a bit?

[thecavemaster]

I'm not sure if I understand the intent here. Could you elaborate a bit?

All around middle class, predominantly white, predominantly conservative American Christianity, the idea is presented that the USA is a "Christian" nation. I do not believe such a thing has ever existed. If Jesus of Nazareth gets bombed, he forgives. If we get bombed, we bomb. And claim to be Christian. If somebody steals Jesus' car, he tells them to take his truck too. We want them hung. And claim to be Christian. I am not really talking about hypocrisy. I am suggesting a wholesale ignorance of who Jesus was, what Jesus taught, what Jesus valued. We package the cross in an American flag, with American values and consumerism, with American bombs and weaponry. "The shoes don't fit."

[BlackcatAlum]

What exactly brought this up?

[Fenix]

All around middle class, predominantly white, predominantly conservative American Christianity, the idea is presented that the USA is a "Christian" nation. I do not believe such a thing has ever existed. If Jesus of Nazareth gets bombed, he forgives. If we get bombed, we bomb. And claim to be Christian. If somebody steals Jesus' car, he tells them to take his truck too. We want them hung. And claim to be Christian. I am not really talking about hypocrisy. I am suggesting a wholesale ignorance of who Jesus was, what Jesus taught, what Jesus valued. We package the cross in an American flag, with American values and consumerism, with American bombs and weaponry. "The shoes don't fit."

You certainly don't think that God doesn't punish those that deserve punishment do you?

[thecavemaster]

You certainly don't think that God doesn't punish those that deserve punishment do you?

Point taken: it is God who punishes; human beings lack adequate capacity in this area. I am not saying that human soceity does not need jails and prisons. It does. I am saying that "love your enemies" and "blessed are those who show mercy" was and is the teaching, value system, and life practice of Jesus. Jesus was a refugee for a time in his life. Jesus was thought to be a bum, a drunk, a glutton in his life. Jesus was treated as a criminal in his life. Jesus was thought to be "touched in the head" in his life. The dominant culture and value system did these things to him and made these assessments. He was constantly in revolutionary stance when confronted with the dominant culture, and the dominant culture responded with a sentence of death. So it goes.

[DevilsWin]

I think Cavemaster is pointing the finger at Your Hipocracy! You know who you are. There are millions of you out there. Preach one thing and practice another. The cop that deals drugs. The US Attorney that molests children. The Preacher or Priest that molests children. The teachers that have inappropriate relations with students. The Sunday school teacher that gets drunk after church and abuses his family. Who can be trusted anymore to be righteous and walk the walk and not just talk the talk. The polititian that promises things they know they can't deliver. The senators and congressmen that are supposed to represent the people of their districts but instead are bought and paid for by lobbying groups. I could go on and on but I don't have the time.

[Fenix]

I think Cavemaster is pointing the finger at Your Hipocracy! You know who you are. There are millions of you out there. Preach one thing and practice another. The cop that deals drugs. The US Attorney that molests children. The Preacher or Priest that molests children. The teachers that have inappropriate relations with students. The Sunday school teacher that gets drunk after church and abuses his family. Who can be trusted anymore to be righteous and walk the walk and not just talk the talk. The polititian that promises things they know they can't deliver. The senators and congressmen that are supposed to represent the people of their districts but instead are bought and paid for by lobbying groups. I could go on and on but I don't have the time.

If this is his intention then I agree, but if his intention is saying we shouldn't go to war when attacked or if my neighbor steals from me I shouldn't report him to the police then I don't agree.

[thecavemaster]

If this is his intention then I agree, but if his intention is saying we shouldn't go to war when attacked or if my neighbor steals from me I shouldn't report him to the police then I don't agree.

I am saying that a "Christian" nation would not respond to being bombed by bombing the crap out of "enemies." I am saying that there are more creative ways of dealing with being robbed than calling the police, though I would not go so far to say that a person is "wrong" to call the police. Ghandi, who thought Christ profound, did not respond to British soliers hitting him in the head with a lathi with further violence, instead he said, "We will match your physical force with soul force; we will in our suffering and persistence endure and outlast your oppression and violence." The dominant culture knows NOTHING of this spirit; the dominant culture knows NOTHING of "blessed are those of you who are poor." The dominant culture, Christian and pagan alike, knows NOTHING of the Jesus portrayed in the Gospel. So it goes.

[BasketBallonlyfan]

As a nation, we are usually on the phone with the leaders of other countries right after tsunamis, earthquakes, mud slides, or any other natural disasters. We offer money, help, people, equipment, or any other things they may need. Our country gives more to other countries than I think they should. I personally think that our leaders should be taking care of the home folk before the people over seas. Fix our roads, bridges, schools, hospitals, and all the other essentials needed in this country before we build for other nations.

As far as the bombs falling after a terrorist attack. Sometimes as a country if you wish to survive, you have to take your toe and draw a line in the sand and warn others not to cross it. That may sound like something a school yard bully would do, but it has to be done. If you wish for your country to survive that is. It is kind of like that rap song my son used to listen to, "Dont start no sh*t there wont be no sh*t".

Cavemaster, have you had any more thoughts about the question I asked you in the PM? If your mother, father, sons, daughters, brothers, or sisters got killed in the WTC, would you still be thinking the same way or would you have wanted our country to do what they did?

[thecavemaster]

As a nation, we are usually on the phone with the leaders of other countries right after tsunamis, earthquakes, mud slides, or any other natural disasters. We offer money, help, people, equipment, or any other things they may need. Our country gives more to other countries than I think they should. I personally think that our leaders should be taking care of the home folk before the people over seas. Fix our roads, bridges, schools, hospitals, and all the other essentials needed in this country before we build for other nations.

As far as the bombs falling after a terrorist attack. Sometimes as a country if you wish to survive, you have to take your toe and draw a line in the sand and warn others not to cross it. That may sound like something a school yard bully would do, but it has to be done. If you wish for your country to survive that is. It is kind of like that rap song my son used to listen to, "Dont start no sh*t there wont be no sh*t".

Cavemaster, have you had any more thoughts about the question I asked you in the PM? If your mother, father, sons, daughters, brothers, or sisters got killed in the WTC, would you still be thinking the same way or would you have wanted our country to do what they did?

Nations, like human beings, cannot be pigeonholed as all good or all bad. It is too easy to say that people are all bad or all good, just as it is too easy to say that nations are all good or all bad. Both nations and people (because nations are really just a bunch of people) are complicated mixtures of good and bad, and I agree with some of what you say about tsunami relief etc. As I said in my reply to you, if I lost immediate family or close friends in 9-11's horror, it is hard to say what I would or would not have thought. My point is that when one
says "Christian," one should mean Christ...and Christ did not believe in "an eye for an eye." In the Christian tradition,
the "God" being did lose a completely innocent child in a
very evil attack. The response was redemptive. So, those of the dominant culture may do as they deem appropriate, but they cannot attach "Christian" to it when it belongs to their thoughts, their values, and their ways. That's all I am saying.

[BasketBallonlyfan]

Nations, like human beings, cannot be pigeonholed as all good or all bad. It is too easy to say that people are all bad or all good, just as it is too easy to say that nations are all good or all bad. Both nations and people (because nations are really just a bunch of people) are complicated mixtures of good and bad, and I agree with some of what you say about tsunami relief etc. As I said in my reply to you, if I lost immediate family or close friends in 9-11's horror, it is hard to say what I would or would not have thought. My point is that when one
says "Christian," one should mean Christ...and Christ did not believe in "an eye for an eye." In the Christian tradition,
the "God" being did lose a completely innocent child in a
very evil attack. The response was redemptive. So, those of the dominant culture may do as they deem appropriate, but they cannot attach "Christian" to it when it belongs to their thoughts, their values, and their ways. That's all I am saying.

Can you post one official link, one unaltered photo, or one official statement saying this is a Christian Nation? Not a sign on the front of a church, or a web page owned by a church. Our government was based on the idea of the separation of church and state. That allowed for religious freedom and not a state lead religion. The founding fathers knew that religion was an important factor to many people who helped found this country. Along with the following generations of the founding fathers. You like to get on here and put down America for its role after 9-11. Why dont you educate us all as to what country is one that wont bomb after an attack, or even better, tell us a more generous nation at times of natural disasters. What country do you think demonstrates better Christian values than ours does apart from the bombs falling after an attack.

As far as this statement goes,

...As I said in my reply to you, if I lost immediate family or close friends in 9-11's horror, it is hard to say what I would or would not have thought...

Lets hope you dont have kids now, or plan on having children. To say it would be hard to say what you would do if you children are murdered, and that you dont know what you would or would not have thought. You really wouldnt deserve to have them. But on the other side of the argument, have this conversation with your future wife if you are looking for one and I am sure you will have a harder time in finding one. Women tend to care more for their offspring that it would appear that you do.

[thecavemaster]

Can you post one official link, one unaltered photo, or one official statement saying this is a Christian Nation? Not a sign on the front of a church, or a web page owned by a church. Our government was based on the idea of the separation of church and state. That allowed for religious freedom and not a state lead religion. The founding fathers knew that religion was an important factor to many people who helped found this country. Along with the following generations of the founding fathers. You like to get on here and put down America for its role after 9-11. Why dont you educate us all as to what country is one that wont bomb after an attack, or even better, tell us a more generous nation at times of natural disasters. What country do you think demonstrates better Christian values than ours does apart from the bombs falling after an attack.

As far as this statement goes,



Lets hope you dont have kids now, or plan on having children. To say it would be hard to say what you would do if you children are murdered, and that you dont know what you would or would not have thought. You really wouldnt deserve to have them. But on the other side of the argument, have this conversation with your future wife if you are looking for one and I am sure you will have a harder time in finding one. Women tend to care more for their offspring that it would appear that you do.

The history of those who follow Christ is replete with examples of those who have had loved ones murdered, tortured, mistreated and who have found ways to respond redemptively instead of with vengeance. It is not for you to say, except in colossal arrogance, whether or not I am or would be a suitable parent. In the Christian tradition, your argument would hold that the "god" being did not care for his child. As for "proof," I am not speaking to our Founders, who were, of course, Deists. I am speaking to those advocates of "Christian" nation belief (prayer in school, no abortion) teaching and preaching. I respect your right to make these arguments, but I cannot even remotely begin to agree with them, which is fine...reasonable people can disagree.

[SVLadiesFan]

Somewhere in time christians have lost what they stand for. I am a christian but as a whole we do not stand up for what God tells us to. That is why this world is in the shape it is.
Back in the Old Testament God told the armies to go in and kill the whole nation not to leave anyone or take anything. They killed innocent people then. But He knew that the blood line had to be stopped. So it is a good thing that it is not those days.
We are christians but we are human also. That doesn't allow us to make mistakes.

[thecavemaster]

Somewhere in time christians have lost what they stand for. I am a christian but as a whole we do not stand up for what God tells us to. That is why this world is in the shape it is.
Back in the Old Testament God told the armies to go in and kill the whole nation not to leave anyone or take anything. They killed innocent people then. But He knew that the blood line had to be stopped. So it is a good thing that it is not those days.
We are christians but we are human also. That doesn't allow us to make mistakes.

Unless you are Jewish, most of the Old Testament has little bearing on what manner of spirit the follower of Jesus of Nazareth is to possess. Until Jesus, Moses. After Jesus, Jesus. Peter wanted to build three temples; a voice from heaven boomed out, "This is my Son. Listen to Him." But, rare is the being who does.