[Old School]

All this proves is that the Coal companies had figured out a way, or several ways to make more money with a smaller workforce. It's called "downsizing". It was all the rave in the 1990's. And let me tell you something else in case you forgot. Corporate downsizing in any industry does nothing for the middle class working people of this country. All it succeeds in doing is allowing these coal barons sitting(symbolically) on top of their own private mountain, in a 20,000 square foot chalet overlooking Pikeville. Not unlike a 5 year old does with his Army Men!!!!
Meanwhile, thanks to downsizing, more families are out of work. And the coal companies try to bust the union.
What it boils down to is, the coal companies have been robbing the families of central Appalachia for way to long. I don't propose doing away with not 1 coal job. Because that 1 job supports a whole family.
Someday soon a Global emissions reduction treaty of some kind will be accepted and part of that will include a reduction of coal energy usage and a total change in the processing of coal.
But by that time the industry will have become stagnant. The natural resources and landscape will be gone. No tourism and no harvesting of the "renewable" natural resources. It'll all be gone.
But the coal companies are good at telling the future. So they'll mine the hell out of Kentucky, West Virginia and anywhere else they think there's an extra buck to be made for as long as we let them. The industry needs to change and that can only be done by the ownership. Who can make the ownership change? The government? The UMWA? Who? When?

Downsizing?....I don't think so!! Couldn't it be because of better technology and equipment!. 30 years ago underground coal mines could not economically mine seams that were less than 70% recovery rate, (meaning 7 tons of coal for every 10 raw tons mined) todays coal companies are mining seams that have a recovery rate of 35% to 45%. In the 1970's surface mines were mining seams over 7 foot thick with little or no rock in the seam, today surface mines are mining coal seams that are split with small seams of coal and rock, A coal seam may look like this (10" of coal, then 15" of rock, then 15" of coal, then 14" of rock and another 17" of coal), a loader would come in and remove the top 10" of coal, then come back and remove the 15" of rock and so on until all of the coal seams have been removed, now 30 years ago companies would have left this seam alone. In 1979 there were 35,902 coal miners that averaged 1.54 tons of coal per man hour worked, then in 2004 there were 15,522 coal miners that averaged 3.13 tons of coal per man hour. From 1979 to 2004 the tons per man hour has doubled, how can you downsize and double your production rate? There is a shortage of coal miners across Appalachia, many companies are hiring people with no mining experience. So do you still think coal companies are downsizing? I don't think so...I think the technology and equipment is better today than it was 30 years ago. DW let me ask you can you name one industry that has not changed or upgraded their equipment or production method with new technology in the last 30 years.

You brought up the Union, I disagree I don't think it's as much as coal companies trying to bust the union as the union is self distructing. Let's check the facts, from 1970 to 2006 total coal production percentages mined by union operation has decreased from 70% to 11%. From 1975 to 2006 total employed coal miners with union representation have declined from 127,500 to 12,340, and before you try to blame it on the Republicians this downward trend has continued under both Republician and Democratic administrations. Coal companies alone could not do that much damage to the union.

I have one question, If a energy resource is renewable how can it be gone forever?

[FOX SPORTS]

God...Your side is stupid. And whoever supports your side is stupid. Just move away from EKY if you hate coal mining that much!

Please, let's respect eveyone's opinion, whether we agree or not.

[FOX SPORTS]

Well I can provide facts to prove my side, and all you can provide is a pitiful remark like that.

My only "pitiful" remark was to add ALLEGED to your unproven and unaccepted(by all) phraseology.

I can provide scientific research and facts as well...scientific research NOT conducted by Al Gore(the inventor of the internet, lol) nor by Michael Moore...you are not talking to a child...I have seen the propaganda.

This is not the forum I choose to discuss politics or political topics, just my opinion.

My grandmother once told me to never discuss politics nor religion if you want to keep friends so I don't.

I do not come to a sports opinion forum for long discussions of political rhetoric.
This is a FUN site, for me, whose main focus is sports.

If I wanted to solve the world's problems with teenagers and jr high kids chiming in I would do it elsewhere.

[TidesHoss32]

Forget it Fox, I quit debating with these two a couple of weeks ago. They'll only accept what garbage they are handed by radical democrats, and wont see the actual truth behind anything. Take that fat piece of crap Michael Moore. Other than feed narrow minded people a bunch of propoganda, what has he done to "make the world a better place"? Nothing he does will change the outcome of anything. He feeds off of people just like the ones you are debating with, and laughs at them all the way to the bank. But you cant tell them that. Al Gore, there's a whole new monster. Al Gore is so smart, that a little over 20 years ago, while he was not working on inventing the internet, was laughing at Oliver North because North said that a man known as Osama bin Laden was a world threat. Good call Al! Al Gore is an idiot.

My only "pitiful" remark was to add ALLEGED to your unproven and unaccepted(by all) phraseology.

I can provide scientific research and facts as well...scientific research NOT conducted by Al Gore(the inventor of the internet, lol) nor by Michael Moore...you are not talking to a child...I have seen the propaganda.

This is not the forum I choose to discuss politics or political topics, just my opinion.

My grandmother once told me to never discuss politics nor religion if you want to keep friends so I don't.

I do not come to a sports opinion forum for long discussions of political rhetoric.
This is a FUN site, for me, whose main focus is sports.

If I wanted to solve the world's problems with teenagers and jr high kids chiming in I would do it elsewhere.

[FOX SPORTS]

But you cant tell them that. Al Gore, there's a whole new monster. Al Gore is so smart, that a little over 20 years ago, while he was not working on inventing the internet, was laughing at Oliver North because North said that a man known as Osama bin Laden was a world threat. Good call Al! Al Gore is an idiot.

lol
I find it hilarious that the democratic party now considers Al Gore a genius and look to him for guidance in the party when he was laughed at and considered an idiot from about '88 til about 10 years ago when they needed a candidate...and that was the best they could do...now it's Hilary...my goodness, how scary is that???

lol

[DevilsWin]

Downsizing?....I don't think so!! Couldn't it be because of better technology and equipment!. 30 years ago underground coal mines could not economically mine seams that were less than 70% recovery rate, (meaning 7 tons of coal for every 10 raw tons mined) todays coal companies are mining seams that have a recovery rate of 35% to 45%. In the 1970's surface mines were mining seams over 7 foot thick with little or no rock in the seam, today surface mines are mining coal seams that are split with small seams of coal and rock, A coal seam may look like this (10" of coal, then 15" of rock, then 15" of coal, then 14" of rock and another 17" of coal), a loader would come in and remove the top 10" of coal, then come back and remove the 15" of rock and so on until all of the coal seams have been removed, now 30 years ago companies would have left this seam alone. In 1979 there were 35,902 coal miners that averaged 1.54 tons of coal per man hour worked, then in 2004 there were 15,522 coal miners that averaged 3.13 tons of coal per man hour. From 1979 to 2004 the tons per man hour has doubled, how can you downsize and double your production rate? There is a shortage of coal miners across Appalachia, many companies are hiring people with no mining experience. So do you still think coal companies are downsizing? I don't think so...I think the technology and equipment is better today than it was 30 years ago. DW let me ask you can you name one industry that has not changed or upgraded their equipment or production method with new technology in the last 30 years.

You brought up the Union, I disagree I don't think it's as much as coal companies trying to bust the union as the union is self distructing. Let's check the facts, from 1970 to 2006 total coal production percentages mined by union operation has decreased from 70% to 11%. From 1975 to 2006 total employed coal miners with union representation have declined from 127,500 to 12,340, and before you try to blame it on the Republicians this downward trend has continued under both Republician and Democratic administrations. Coal companies alone could not do that much damage to the union.

I have one question, If a energy resource is renewable how can it be gone forever?

Sounds like a typical response from a "Union Busting Company Man".

Are any of you members of the UMWA?

A renewable natural resource is for example, tobacco or corn or anything else you can produce naturally from one season to the next. Just look at the deserts in Africa. They were once lush fertile lands. But due to over farming the topsoil became sand and dust. So now that once renewable resource is gone forever. Instead of Corn and Sugarcane and Grain now all they harvest is famine and drought.

[DevilsWin]

Forget it Fox, I quit debating with these two a couple of weeks ago. They'll only accept what garbage they are handed by radical democrats, and wont see the actual truth behind anything. Take that fat piece of crap Michael Moore. Other than feed narrow minded people a bunch of propoganda, what has he done to "make the world a better place"? Nothing he does will change the outcome of anything. He feeds off of people just like the ones you are debating with, and laughs at them all the way to the bank. But you cant tell them that. Al Gore, there's a whole new monster. Al Gore is so smart, that a little over 20 years ago, while he was not working on inventing the internet, was laughing at Oliver North because North said that a man known as Osama bin Laden was a world threat. Good call Al! Al Gore is an idiot.

Nice try but I got most of my information in college. Biology, Geography, Geology and other related courses.

I prefer the term "Enlightened" rather than "Narrow Minded".

[DevilsWin]

lol
I find it hilarious that the democratic party now considers Al Gore a genius and look to him for guidance in the party when he was laughed at and considered an idiot from about '88 til about 10 years ago when they needed a candidate...and that was the best they could do...now it's Hilary...my goodness, how scary is that???

lol

I find it hilarious that you presume to know more about the environment than world renowned experts.

[Coach_Owens87]

Nice try but I got most of my information in college. Biology, Geography, Geology and other related courses.

I prefer the term "Enlightened" rather than "Narrow Minded".

Yeah it seems that people claim all on the "left" get their information feed to them from political figures like Gore and Moore. It's not the truth. I'm in the same boat as DW most of the information I have came from my college courses. We done a study in My Chemistry 2 class this year on water quality in this region. Thats how I got the information for the elements fount in our water.

Just last semester I completed my associates in science, so I know that my information on the envioronment is correct.

People like tidehoss claim I fall for propaganda, when most on the right watch a channel that rivals Hitlers propaganda campaign, that channel would of course be fox news.

I got a good idea for you guys, who about you stop criticizing everyone on the left, stop claiming we are all helpless puppets in their game, and start debating with facts.

[Coach_Owens87]

Sounds like a typical response from a "Union Busting Company Man".

Are any of you members of the UMWA?

A renewable natural resource is for example, tobacco or corn or anything else you can produce naturally from one season to the next. Just look at the deserts in Africa. They were once lush fertile lands. But due to over farming the topsoil became sand and dust. So now that once renewable resource is gone forever. Instead of Corn and Sugarcane and Grain now all they harvest is famine and drought.

The term for that is called desertification, which has been proven by scientist. I learned about this term in my Sociology class last semester. We done a study on how this is affecting non-industrialized countries.

Contrary to popular belief, droughts do not cause this. Human activity is the culprit, these areas have very delicate eco-systems and with the constant human activity on these desert ecosystems, we have caused an imbalance.

[Old School]

Sounds like a typical response from a "Union Busting Company Man".

Are any of you members of the UMWA?

A renewable natural resource is for example, tobacco or corn or anything else you can produce naturally from one season to the next. Just look at the deserts in Africa. They were once lush fertile lands. But due to over farming the topsoil became sand and dust. So now that once renewable resource is gone forever. Instead of Corn and Sugarcane and Grain now all they harvest is famine and drought.

How in the world could you take my post and say it's sounds like a typical response from a "Union Busting Company Man". Any time you lose over 90% of your members in 31 years you'd had better take a good look in the mirror, because there has to be some major problems with the way you conduct you business. As far as the union goes, I'm neither a member or am I a "union buster", I realize that if there had never been a union, coal miners today wouldn't have a lot of the benefits and wages that we have today. I will always consider every coal miner my "buddy" regardless if he's union or non-union, it seem that in today's world coal miners are the bad guys, we have to stick together more now than ever before.

[Old School]

The term for that is called desertification, which has been proven by scientist. I learned about this term in my Sociology class last semester. We done a study on how this is affecting non-industrialized countries.

Contrary to popular belief, droughts do not cause this. Human activity is the culprit, these areas have very delicate eco-systems and with the constant human activity on these desert ecosystems, we have caused an imbalance.

According to Ridley Nelson the desertification problem and processes are not clearly defined. There is no consensus among researchers as to the specific causes, extent, or degree if desertification. Contary to many popular reports, desterification is actually a subtle and complex process of dererioration that may often be reversible.

One remedy for sand dunes is to cover the dunes with large boulders or petroleum this will interrupt the wind and keep the sand from moving. Sounds like to to me that they either need a surface mine or a few oil wells drilled in these areas.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/deserts/desertification/

[Coach_Owens87]

According to Ridley Nelson the desertification problem and processes are not clearly defined. There is no consensus among researchers as to the specific causes, extent, or degree if desertification. Contary to many popular reports, desterification is actually a subtle and complex process of dererioration that may often be reversible.

One remedy for sand dunes is to cover the dunes with large boulders or petroleum this will interrupt the wind and keep the sand from moving. Sounds like to to me that they either need a surface mine or a few oil wells drilled in these areas.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/deserts/desertification/

From what I read in the article everything I said was true. Droughts do not cause it, the main culprit is Human activity. Scientists believe that bad practices in farming caused the "Dust bowl", and that better practices and water management since then have decreased the problem.

From all the information we have, human activity is the cause, more studies are being done to make sure that is correct.

The remedy you mentioned is recommended on a local level . To really understand and fight the problem we must first know the affects of overpopulation, over farming, and climate change. And the remark about needing a surface mine is absurd, I really hope you were joking, if not you have no understanding of the environment.

[FOX SPORTS]

I find it hilarious that you presume to know more about the environment than world renowned experts.

No, I don't claim to know more than anyone, especially "world renowned experts".

,Do you know the definition of an expert???
Expert: A person making a presentation or report over 100 miles from home.
Just kidding...

However, I do consider research and information presented by both sides of the issue before making my own personal decision as to what i believe, rather than what is fed to me by others.

[Playboy5]

Lol...People think I will give up just becuase some old man has some decent research. Not quite.

I knew that I would never convince people on this site to see things my way, the majority of people who post on here work in the mines. The majority of research that Old School has given has come from coal sites, and all they state is the money that Coal brings to this region, well in case no one has looked outside lately, things haven't changed. The money has done little to help the situation here.

And just to restate, Im not against mining in general, just MTR.

I wont win the battle?

With the recent federal judge rulings, and the government seeking new energy sources do to the global warming crisis, things will change in the mining world. I just hope it happens before greedy energy companies destroy everything in central Appalachia.

You are too good. How did you know I was on my laptop in the mines...And you are right, you won't win the battle.....NOT A CHANCE IN *&#$

[Playboy5]

But Coach Owens, one thing about it, you haven't gave up....You might be beating that poor old horse too death, but you haven't given up!

[Redneck]

And I'm not going to give up. If all I have to deal with while fighting to stop MTR is ignorant people like you, I shouldn't have a problem.

What is your deal with MTR, just give it a rest. And PLAYBOY is as intelligent as you'll ever be. He's prolly forgot more about minin then you will ever learn.

[ComfortEagle]

This thread has run it's course and now we have members resorting to name-calling for lack of better conversation.

Thread closed.