[Coach_Owens87]

I see that a few people are starting to see what I was saying. I never said they didn't give back to the community, they do, but It's just to make us forget about the damages they are doing to our environment.

A few people have mentioned the coal severance tax, which gives money back to the counties which produce the coal, just to let people know the coal severance tax hasn't changed since the 70's, I believe with the increase in coal production the severance tax should raise also.

[cig107]

cig, man, I know you have had a rough time dealin with the tragic minin death of your father and I'm sorry you had to go thru with that, but facts are facts. You know this region couldn't make it without coal, this state couldn't make it without coal (same goes for alot of other states). My step has been an underground miner for 24 years, him and my mom are gettin ready to pack it up and move to Florida. And guess who he is goin to work for. TECO (I'm sure you've heard of em), and do you got any idea what TECO stands for, TAMPA ELECTRIC. He use to work for Diamond May, and do you know who owned Diamond May. Progress Fuels owned Diamond May. DO you know where Progress Fuels is, Tampa, Fl. See, there are ALOT of other places that benefit from coal mining, not just us.

You must have me confused...I am FOR coal mining. I just posted that list because they were talking about how poor eastern kentucky was...well, most of east ky. But NO I am not against Coal Mining at all...ESPECIALLY with what happened to my dad...

[Redneck]

You must have me confused...I am FOR coal mining. I just posted that list because they were talking about how poor eastern kentucky was...well, most of east ky. But NO I am not against Coal Mining at all...ESPECIALLY with what happened to my dad...

Sorry man, misunderstood ya.

[cig107]

No problem...that's kinda weird to know that TECO is Tampa Electric...

[Old School]

You made a great point, a lot of other areas do benefit from mining, but it's at our expense. Do you really think people in tampa know what TECO does, some do, but most dont. A lot of the coal money that people around here work so hard for goes to other states and makes other men/women rich. It's just ironic that so much money is created out of this area, but as the list CIG107 provided shows, it doenst stay here.

Coach, I have to disagree with you on this one, I know there is some money going out of state, but I don't think it's a lot. In 2004 coal miners earned $759 million in wages, and about 80% of that was in the Eastern Ky. coal fields, that calculates to about $400 million dollars after taxes. Consider that for every coal miners job (in 2004 15,012 and 13,272 of those were in E Ky.) there's another 4 jobs are created (approx. 46,000 jobs) related to the coal industry, such as in coal transportation, contractors, engineering/surveying/mapping, mechanics, welders, lawers, loggers, electrical etc. the majority of these companies are locally owned and employee local people. I don't know the how much money was brought in through their wages but the thing is the money stayed here in E. Ky.

I may make some people mad, but here it goes, one big reason E. Ky is so poor is that too many people are on disability, welfare, food stamps or other goverment aid that shouldn't be, now if a person deserves it then I'm ok with it thats what it's there for. I have several reltavies that grew up on welfare and now they are raising their families and their in better shape than I am, my point is as long as these people (the lazy ones that don't want to work) are drawing a check E. Ky will be one of the poorest in the nation.

I know that Kentucky had 16 of the 100 poorest counties in the nation, but as you know coal mining is about the only source of employment in E. Ky that pays a decent wage, what would the per capita income be without the coal mines. I for one would love to see other industries move into E. Ky but better roads and larger airports need to be built before that ever happens.

[cig107]

I agree..

[Redneck]

Great Post Old School...

[DevilsWin]

More food for thought. Coal mining job trends from 1979-2004 in Ky.

http://www.coaleducation.org/Ky_Coal_Fac...oyment.htm

[Redneck]

More food for thought. Coal mining job trends from 1979-2004 in Ky.

http://www.coaleducation.org/Ky_Coal_Fac...oyment.htm

What's your point. Alot of mines, and I mean ALOT of mines have been mined out both surface and underground.

[Coach_Owens87]

Coach, I have to disagree with you on this one, I know there is some money going out of state, but I don't think it's a lot. In 2004 coal miners earned $759 million in wages, and about 80% of that was in the Eastern Ky. coal fields, that calculates to about $400 million dollars after taxes. Consider that for every coal miners job (in 2004 15,012 and 13,272 of those were in E Ky.) there's another 4 jobs are created (approx. 46,000 jobs) related to the coal industry, such as in coal transportation, contractors, engineering/surveying/mapping, mechanics, welders, lawers, loggers, electrical etc. the majority of these companies are locally owned and employee local people. I don't know the how much money was brought in through their wages but the thing is the money stayed here in E. Ky.

I may make some people mad, but here it goes, one big reason E. Ky is so poor is that too many people are on disability, welfare, food stamps or other goverment aid that shouldn't be, now if a person deserves it then I'm ok with it thats what it's there for. I have several reltavies that grew up on welfare and now they are raising their families and their in better shape than I am, my point is as long as these people (the lazy ones that don't want to work) are drawing a check E. Ky will be one of the poorest in the nation.

I know that Kentucky had 16 of the 100 poorest counties in the nation, but as you know coal mining is about the only source of employment in E. Ky that pays a decent wage, what would the per capita income be without the coal mines. I for one would love to see other industries move into E. Ky but better roads and larger airports need to be built before that ever happens.

I totally agree with you on the social issues, a lot of people here do rely on government aid to get them through life. We live in a culture of poverty, so many kids here are born into poverty, and with the lack of jobs and chances for education (becuase they have limited finances) most people stay within the level of poverty. This creates more and more people who are unqualified for many jobs. Kids that live in poor homes are less likely to succeed in school for a numerous amount of reasons. A lot of these kids, especially boys see an easy escape route in the mines, this just continues the situation. another big majority of the people here are too tied up with drugs to get out and keep a job. The drug problem can also be associated with the poverty level here, poor people are more likely to get into legal trouble in their life.

Now as far as the coal severance tax, I have to disagree. The rate is 4.5% per ton (the lowest of the top three coal producing states), Coal has jumped to the $50 per ton range, I think a modest raise is in the tax is necessary. More than half of the money produced from the coal severance tax goes into a general state fund, these funds are spent on numerous projects for non-coal producing counties, ie. Coal severance money was used to help renovate the civic center in Lexington.

70 million dollars of the coal severance tax was spent on building eight industrial parks, which are not succeeding. The park in hazard is one example.here is another example 9 million dollars was spent toward the bluegrass crossing industrial park which has one business and employs 35 people. Is this really the way to spend the well deserved money these counties should be getting? I just don't believe failing industrial parks are going to help the situation in Eastern Ky.

I believe the way to make Eastern Ky prosper is to keep are educated young generation here at home, but there are too few job opportunites, so that isn't going to happen at the moment. Companies would much rather send their business to other countries and get unqualified workers to work for nearly nothing, instead of having to pay more for unqualified workers here. A way to start this would be to raise the coal severance tax, and use it properly to help this region, not to renovate Lexington.

[Old School]

Here is a list of 6 states and their rate for coal severance tax.
Ohio pays a coal severance tax of $0.09 per ton.
Alabama and Tennessee both pay coal severance tax of $0.20 per ton.
Virginia - Counties charge a coal severance tax of 2% per ton.
Kentucky pays a coal severance tax of 4.5%.
West Virginia pays a coal severance tax of 5%.

Now in addition to the Coal Severance Tax, Coal Companies also pay a Black Lung Tax, a Reclamation Assessment and several other taxes. Since the coal severance tax is based on the selling price of coal, let's say coal is selling for $45 per ton, that means a coal company will be paying around $4.50 per ton on various taxes, that is 10% of the selling price of the coal. I think their taxes are high enough as they are, but I do think that more of the severance tax money should be sent back to the county where it was mined.

If the Coal Severance Tax was raised to let's say 6% does that mean that the extra money would come back to Eastern Ky., NO! more than likely it would be spent somewhere else.

[Coach_Owens87]

Here is a list of 6 states and their rate for coal severance tax.
Ohio pays a coal severance tax of $0.09 per ton.
Alabama and Tennessee both pay coal severance tax of $0.20 per ton.
Virginia - Counties charge a coal severance tax of 2% per ton.
Kentucky pays a coal severance tax of 4.5%.
West Virginia pays a coal severance tax of 5%.

Now in addition to the Coal Severance Tax, Coal Companies also pay a Black Lung Tax, a Reclamation Assessment and several other taxes. Since the coal severance tax is based on the selling price of coal, let's say coal is selling for $45 per ton, that means a coal company will be paying around $4.50 per ton on various taxes, that is 10% of the selling price of the coal. I think their taxes are high enough as they are, but I do think that more of the severance tax money should be sent back to the county where it was mined.

If the Coal Severance Tax was raised to let's say 6% does that mean that the extra money would come back to Eastern Ky., NO! more than likely it would be spent somewhere else.

I never said that only raising the tax rate would help, the money has to stay here. The reason I brought that up is that Bill Caylor, president of the Ky coal association always likes to state that the coal severance tax is doing so much for this area, when in reality it isn't.

[Coach_Owens87]

Old School, you say in your last post that the money is spent elsewhere, but in post 155 you said that it stayed here. Which one do you believe? The facts are that the majority of coal severance tax does not help coal producing counties.

[Old School]

Old School, you say in your last post that the money is spent elsewhere, but in post 155 you said that it stayed here. Which one do you believe? The facts are that the majority of coal severance tax does not help coal producing counties.

In post #155 I was talking about wages and the money spent to hire local contractors and consulants and using local suppliers etc., that money stays in E. Ky. In post #161 I'm referring to the coal severance tax money, which is divided among all counties in Kentucky like I said, I think the 4.5% coal severance tax rate is high enough, but more of the tax money should be sent to the county where the coal was mined.

[Old School]

I never said that only raising the tax rate would help, the money has to stay here. The reason I brought that up is that Bill Caylor, president of the Ky coal association always likes to state that the coal severance tax is doing so much for this area, when in reality it isn't.

For the year of 2004 Eastern Kentucky counties recieved almost $10 million dollars in coal severance taxes. I don't know the formula used by the state to divide the severance taxes or how each county spends their share, but the $10 million is better that nothing.

[Old School]

More food for thought. Coal mining job trends from 1979-2004 in Ky.

http://www.coaleducation.org/Ky_Coal_Fac...oyment.htm

Here's more food for thought, This chart shows the Coal tons produced per man hour worked from 1977 to 2004. In 1977 Eastern Kentucky Coal mines produced 1.71 tons of coal per man hour worked and in 2004 Eastern Kentucky mines produced 3.13 tons of coal per man hour.


http://www.energy.ky.gov/NR/rdonlyres/D1...200506.pdf

[Redneck]

Coach_Owens just needs to give it up. This is a battle he/she WON'T win. Very good points and research Old School.

[cig107]

I agree.

[Coach_Owens87]

Lol...People think I will give up just becuase some old man has some decent research. Not quite.

I knew that I would never convince people on this site to see things my way, the majority of people who post on here work in the mines. The majority of research that Old School has given has come from coal sites, and all they state is the money that Coal brings to this region, well in case no one has looked outside lately, things haven't changed. The money has done little to help the situation here.

And just to restate, Im not against mining in general, just MTR.

I wont win the battle?

With the recent federal judge rulings, and the government seeking new energy sources do to the global warming crisis, things will change in the mining world. I just hope it happens before greedy energy companies destroy everything in central Appalachia.

[cig107]

God, I am tired of everyone whining about destroying poor little Appalachia...if it means bringing more money to the area, so be it. There are plenty of mountains.

[Midee1]

God, I am tired of everyone whining about destroying poor little Appalachia...if it means bringing more money to the area, so be it. There are plenty of mountains.

But how long will it be before the many mountains are few mountains?

[Old School]

Lol...People think I will give up just becuase some old man has some decent research. Not quite.

I knew that I would never convince people on this site to see things my way, the majority of people who post on here work in the mines. The majority of research that Old School has given has come from coal sites, and all they state is the money that Coal brings to this region, well in case no one has looked outside lately, things haven't changed. The money has done little to help the situation here.

And just to restate, Im not against mining in general, just MTR.

I wont win the battle?

With the recent federal judge rulings, and the government seeking new energy sources do to the global warming crisis, things will change in the mining world. I just hope it happens before greedy energy companies destroy everything in central Appalachia.

OLD MAN!! Now why did you go and insult me by calling me a OLD MAN,:dontthink Let's set the record straight once and for all Junior "I'M NOT OLD. I'M OF AN EXCEPTIONAL VINTAGE" :biggrin:

[Old School]

Lol...People think I will give up just becuase some old man has some decent research. Not quite.

I knew that I would never convince people on this site to see things my way, the majority of people who post on here work in the mines. The majority of research that Old School has given has come from coal sites, and all they state is the money that Coal brings to this region, well in case no one has looked outside lately, things haven't changed. The money has done little to help the situation here.

And just to restate, Im not against mining in general, just MTR.

I wont win the battle?

With the recent federal judge rulings, and the government seeking new energy sources do to the global warming crisis, things will change in the mining world. I just hope it happens before greedy energy companies destroy everything in central Appalachia.

Coach, how can you say your "not against mining in general, just MTR", and in post #45 you blasted slurry ponds when you said "These slurry lakes and Ponds have been breaking the rules" you then praise Judge Chambers on his ruling in June which said ponds were illegal.

If Chambers ruling stands it will affect all types of coal mining including MTR, Contour and Underground. If slurry impoundments and refuse fills cannot be built what will happen to the underground mines. Where will they put the refuse? What are their options? There are only a hand full of underground mines today that can mine coal without being cleaned and doesn't require a preparation plant or slurry impoundment to process the coal, and these mines are small producers since the seams are very thin usually around 26" to 36".

So you think things will change in the mining world, if Chambers ruling stands and ponds are illegal, then coal mining (MTR, Surface and Underground) in West Virginia will be shut down, then it's Kentucky's turn.

[cig107]

Coal Mining will rule KY and WV for years to come...I don't understand why people are trying to disagree with that. It will never change...money is money and as long as there are mountains around here they will be mined for coal.

[FOX SPORTS]

Lol

With the recent federal judge rulings, and the government seeking new energy sources do to the global warming crisis, .

Make that ALLEGED global warming crisis.

[DevilsWin]

Here's more food for thought, This chart shows the Coal tons produced per man hour worked from 1977 to 2004. In 1977 Eastern Kentucky Coal mines produced 1.71 tons of coal per man hour worked and in 2004 Eastern Kentucky mines produced 3.13 tons of coal per man hour.


http://www.energy.ky.gov/NR/rdonlyres/D1...200506.pdf

All this proves is that the Coal companies had figured out a way, or several ways to make more money with a smaller workforce. It's called "downsizing". It was all the rave in the 1990's. And let me tell you something else in case you forgot. Corporate downsizing in any industry does nothing for the middle class working people of this country. All it succeeds in doing is allowing these coal barons sitting(symbolically) on top of their own private mountain, in a 20,000 square foot chalet overlooking Pikeville. Not unlike a 5 year old does with his Army Men!!!!
Meanwhile, thanks to downsizing, more families are out of work. And the coal companies try to bust the union.
What it boils down to is, the coal companies have been robbing the families of central Appalachia for way to long. I don't propose doing away with not 1 coal job. Because that 1 job supports a whole family.
Someday soon a Global emissions reduction treaty of some kind will be accepted and part of that will include a reduction of coal energy usage and a total change in the processing of coal.
But by that time the industry will have become stagnant. The natural resources and landscape will be gone. No tourism and no harvesting of the "renewable" natural resources. It'll all be gone.
But the coal companies are good at telling the future. So they'll mine the hell out of Kentucky, West Virginia and anywhere else they think there's an extra buck to be made for as long as we let them. The industry needs to change and that can only be done by the ownership. Who can make the ownership change? The government? The UMWA? Who? When?

[DevilsWin]

Make that ALLEGED global warming crisis.

Saw this coming from a mile away.

[Coach_Owens87]

All this proves is that the Coal companies had figured out a way, or several ways to make more money with a smaller workforce. It's called "downsizing". It was all the rave in the 1990's. And let me tell you something else in case you forgot. Corporate downsizing in any industry does nothing for the middle class working people of this country. All it succeeds in doing is allowing these coal barons sitting(symbolically) on top of their own private mountain, in a 20,000 square foot chalet overlooking Pikeville. Not unlike a 5 year old does with his Army Men!!!!
Meanwhile, thanks to downsizing, more families are out of work. And the coal companies try to bust the union.
What it boils down to is, the coal companies have been robbing the families of central Appalachia for way to long. I don't propose doing away with not 1 coal job. Because that 1 job supports a whole family.
Someday soon a Global emissions reduction treaty of some kind will be accepted and part of that will include a reduction of coal energy usage and a total change in the processing of coal.
But by that time the industry will have become stagnant. The natural resources and landscape will be gone. No tourism and no harvesting of the "renewable" natural resources. It'll all be gone.
But the coal companies are good at telling the future. So they'll mine the hell out of Kentucky, West Virginia and anywhere else they think there's an extra buck to be made for as long as we let them. The industry needs to change and that can only be done by the ownership. Who can make the ownership change? The government? The UMWA? Who? When?

Great Post.

Thats the truth that seemingly no one here wants to accept.

[Coach_Owens87]

Make that ALLEGED global warming crisis.

Well I can provide facts to prove my side, and all you can provide is a pitiful remark like that.

[cig107]

God...Your side is stupid. And whoever supports your side is stupid. Just move away from EKY if you hate coal mining that much!