[mr.fundamental]

Gee thanks tvtimeout. :Thumbs:

While you're in the mood to enlighten everybody on all this stuff could you please explain to us, how all you've expounded upon above relates to the mismanaged money that was supposed to be in the pension fund in question? The money was appropriated or otherwise withdrawn from the earnings of said teachers, was it not? So where is it?

No sir the money was not appropriated between the years of 2002-2014. To the later part of the question. I think it is great to ask! Every two years the budget is made so I say it was used for other things. I would also point out that Senate budget and house budget nearly always went to committee and that is what we got.

[TheRealThing]

No sir the money was not appropriated between the years of 2002-2014. To the later part of the question. I think it is great to ask! Every two years the budget is made so I say it was used for other things. I would also point out that Senate budget and house budget nearly always went to committee and that is what we got.

So you're admitting the teachers pension money was squandered. I'm certainly good with that.

If some reporter did a story on Kentucky's present state of financial woe, it would seem that a good title for the story could be "When Chickens Come Home to Roost." Legislators have looked the other way for decades now where fiscal responsibility is concerned. And frankly, as I have pointed out on here now for some time, the weight of Kentucky's inordinately replete state welfare benefits has the shoulders of working Kentuckians noticeably bent. But past that on the larger scale, though the taxpayer may still be standing under that load, the added weight of federal hand outs (such as ObamaCare) will certainly at some point cause sudden collapse. In the final analysis, Democrats may not have 'been fer the werkin man' after all. Where do you think all that benefit money comes from?

So since 'the money' was used for things other than pensions, why would you say the teachers all want Bevin's political head on a stick? If for no other reason than patently obvious time constraints alone, I guarantee Beshear and his predecessors are the guys who made the decisions to spend the money elsewhere, and I guarantee they foresaw this day coming. They just didn't think it would be so soon. Given that we're talking about the retirement fortunes of the intellectual elite here, it is truly amazing to consider that though the true culprits in all this continue to walk the yellow brick road, the newcomer on the block in the person of Governor Bevin somehow gets all the blame. :igiveup:

Pension funds, are not made up of subsidies provided by the tax payer. I used the word appropriated only in the sense that union dues are paid, and applicable employee contributions are collected from teacher's paychecks throughout the term of their employment. And you agreed that those funds got spent. (Likely on goodies handed out to everybody but teachers, BTW.) If anything those funds should have been invested, not spent. They might as well have drop-kicked the money off a cliff, it's just as gone. But if government were to appropriate tax dollars to be used to fund teacher pensions in my view, that would be a form of extortion.

[mr.fundamental]

So you're admitting the teachers pension money was squandered. I'm certainly good with that.

If some reporter did a story on Kentucky's present state of financial woe, it would seem that a good title for the story could be "When Chickens Come Home to Roost." Legislators have looked the other way for decades now where fiscal responsibility is concerned. And frankly, as I have pointed out on here now for some time, the weight of Kentucky's inordinately replete state welfare benefits has the shoulders of working Kentuckians noticeably bent. But past that on the larger scale, though the taxpayer may still be standing under that load, the added weight of federal hand outs (such as ObamaCare) will certainly at some point cause sudden collapse. In the final analysis, Democrats may not have 'been fer the werkin man' after all. Where do you think all that benefit money comes from?

So since 'the money' was used for things other than pensions, why would you say the teachers all want Bevin's political head on a stick? If for no other reason than patently obvious time constraints alone, I guarantee Beshear and his predecessors are the guys who made the decisions to spend the money elsewhere, and I guarantee they foresaw this day coming. They just didn't think it would be so soon. Given that we're talking about the retirement fortunes of the intellectual elite here, it is truly amazing to consider that though the true culprits in all this continue to walk the yellow brick road, the newcomer on the block in the person of Governor Bevin somehow gets all the blame. :igiveup:

Pension funds, are not made up of subsidies provided by the tax payer. I used the word appropriated only in the sense that union dues are paid, and applicable employee contributions are collected from teacher's paychecks throughout the term of their employment. And you agreed that those funds got spent. (Likely on goodies handed out to everybody but teachers, BTW.) If anything those funds should have been invested, not spent. They might as well have drop-kicked if all off a cliff, it's just as gone. But if government were to appropriate tax dollars to be used to fund teacher pensions in my view, that would be a form of extortion.

I agree that since 2002-2014 the state did not allocate its portion of the pension. The teachers paid their share. I agree that before 2002 the funding for the pension system was at 125%. I agree that there was a political shift after 2002 just look at the Senate.

As far as the rest.. union dues... explain to me why union dues even have to do with the pension? Teachers from all all walks (those that are part of unions and those that are not) pay into TRS.

As far as unions though are concerned this has been on the legislative agenda since 2006, to fully fund the pension system, but you would not know about that would you unless you are or were part of KEA. I am betting you are not.



So, back to the point it is definitely concerning that we were fully funded, over funded, then a political shift happened then, now the funds are not. I agree we should vote out all of those that have helped make this happen. I want to go back to the days of being fully funded... but I have a strong feeling you would disagree with that party.

Just for the record teachers pay taxes as well.

As for Bevin, he has provided a solution, not a good one, but a solution. There were other solutions proposed as well... but again you would probably discount those. This even happened before Bevin. I know it is crazy that there were house bills to deal with it and the senate did not call those bills up.

[TheRealThing]

I agree that since 2002-2014 the state did not allocate its portion of the pension. The teachers paid their share. I agree that before 2002 the funding for the pension system was at 125%. I agree that there was a political shift after 2002 just look at the Senate.

As far as the rest.. union dues... explain to me why union dues even have to do with the pension? Teachers from all all walks (those that are part of unions and those that are not) pay into TRS.

As far as unions though are concerned this has been on the legislative agenda since 2006, to fully fund the pension system, but you would not know about that would you unless you are or were part of KEA. I am betting you are not.



So, back to the point it is definitely concerning that we were fully funded, over funded, then a political shift happened then, now the funds are not. I agree we should vote out all of those that have helped make this happen. I want to go back to the days of being fully funded... but I have a strong feeling you would disagree with that party.

Just for the record teachers pay taxes as well.

As for Bevin, he has provided a solution, not a good one, but a solution. There were other solutions proposed as well... but again you would probably discount those. This even happened before Bevin. I know it is crazy that there were house bills to deal with it and the senate did not call those bills up.

No, I’m no big time teacher’s aid or anything like that. Still though, I find it remarkable that before Bevin, no other Governor could mention the issue, much less address it. Which according to you was buried in the Republican controlled Senate.

The Governor pulls the strings in this state, always has.

[mr.fundamental]

In response to the idea that there were was nothing being said before Bevin

This is 2012

http://www.military.state.ky.us/07_legis.../index.htm

This is 2010

https://trs.ky.gov/shared-responsibility/

I know the casino bill was mention to use for pensions. I know it was under Breasear but what year was it proposed. Whatever year it was proposed add that to the above list.

I will continue to look for 2006, 2008 legislation as well on this very topic.

[Bob Seger]

In response to the idea that there were was nothing being said before Bevin

This is 2012

http://www.military.state.ky.us/07_legis.../index.htm

This is 2010

https://trs.ky.gov/shared-responsibility/

I know the casino bill was mention to use for pensions. I know it was under Breasear but what year was it proposed. Whatever year it was proposed add that to the above list.

I will continue to look for 2006, 2008 legislation as well on this very topic.

So , in other words you are confirming that the goof balls that goof balls like you voted into office are responsible for the grand larceny.

[mr.fundamental]

So , in other words you are confirming that the goof balls that goof balls like you voted into office are responsible for the grand larceny.

I never once voted for the Senator that represents my area. So no, is the answer to that.

[Bob Seger]

How about the governor?

[mr.fundamental]

I give all governors a pass except for Patton. Which I did not vote for him. Reason being is that the budget comes from the legislative body. Patton started the idea that they could borrow moneys from the account. I know they paid it back in 2000 or 2002, but still the idea behind it. I also need to check if any other governors put it in their proposed budget to G.A. between that time I know Breasear and Bevin did. Have no clue on Fletcher. Will need to check. I will post as soon as I find out though.

[TheRealThing]

In response to the idea that there were was nothing being said before Bevin

This is 2012

http://www.military.state.ky.us/07_legis.../index.htm

This is 2010

https://trs.ky.gov/shared-responsibility/

I know the casino bill was mention to use for pensions. I know it was under Breasear but what year was it proposed. Whatever year it was proposed add that to the above list.

I will continue to look for 2006, 2008 legislation as well on this very topic.

All I saw from your links was the can getting kicked down the road.

House Bill 540 (which did pass) was supposed shore up the retiree health care benefit fund. You missed the mark with that one by just about a mile or two.


Don't knock yourself out looking for proof that the same Government goofs who spent the pensioner's money in the first place, now think it is somehow ok to saddle tax payers (again) with the burden of paying our teacher's handsome retirements. I've already conceded the point in previous posts.

My pension fund like so many others, survives or fails on it's own. Taxpayers would not be expected to bail out a mismanaged fund for anybody but government employees. And again we see in your argument that it's the same old story. You expect Uncle Sam to go back to the only well they know about, which is the bank accounts of your fellow Americans, and raise their taxes. BOOM, problem solved! This kind of ridiculousness is the real reason Trump won the Rust Belt. Democrats tax and spend and we see the result, raising taxes is like a doper's fix, which of course fixes exactly nothing and only makes them want more. So Nancy Pelosi and all the teachers and the rest of their Democrat saviors, think the fact that their pension fund is in Crisis Status is Bevin's fault, right tvtime?

[mr.fundamental]

All I saw from your links was the can getting kicked down the road.

House Bill 540 (which did pass) was supposed shore up the retiree health care benefit fund. You missed the mark with that one by just about a mile or two.


Don't knock yourself out looking for proof that the same Government goofs who spent the pensioner's money in the first place, now think it is somehow ok to saddle tax payers (again) with the burden of paying our teacher's handsome retirements. I've already conceded the point in previous posts.

My pension fund like so many others, survives or fails on it's own. Taxpayers would not be expected to bail out a mismanaged fund for anybody but government employees. And again we see in your argument that it's the same old story. You expect Uncle Sam to go back to the only well they know about, which is the bank accounts of your fellow Americans, and raise their taxes. BOOM, problem solved! This kind of ridiculousness is the real reason Trump won the Rust Belt. Democrats tax and spend and we see the result, raising taxes is like a doper's fix, which of course fixes exactly nothing and only makes them want more. So Nancy Pelosi and all the teachers and the rest of their Democrat saviors, think the fact that their pension fund is in Crisis Status is Bevin's fault, right tvtime?

Lol! You crack me up! nicker: Pelosi...really...

Easy Quiz

1. True or False; Teachers are tax payers
2. True or False; Teachers spend money in their communities
3. True or False; Teachers do not get Social Security like you do
4. True or False; When you enter a contract you expect it to be fulfilled
5. True or False; if the state would continue to fund TRS, it would be over 80% in the next decade.
6. True of False: Teachers pay into Teacher Retirement at 16%
7. True or False; It would cost the state more money to move ALL teachers to a hedge fund
8. True or False; Teachers are required to get a Masters Degree
9. True or False; Teachers make the equivalent pay of those with a Masters Degree
10. True or False; Teachers pension is at 54%

Bonus Question for you!
11. True or False: When the GOP took over the state Senate Teacher Pensions were funded at or above 90%

Good Luck!

P.S. We can debate national politics on a different thread!

[TheRealThing]

Lol! You crack me up! nicker: Pelosi...really...

Easy Quiz

1. True or False; Teachers are tax payers
2. True or False; Teachers spend money in their communities
3. True or False; Teachers do not get Social Security like you do
4. True or False; When you enter a contract you expect it to be fulfilled
5. True or False; if the state would continue to fund TRS, it would be over 80% in the next decade.
6. True of False: Teachers pay into Teacher Retirement at 16%
7. True or False; It would cost the state more money to move ALL teachers to a hedge fund
8. True or False; Teachers are required to get a Masters Degree
9. True or False; Teachers make the equivalent pay of those with a Masters Degree
10. True or False; Teachers pension is at 54%

Bonus Question for you!
11. True or False: When the GOP took over the state Senate Teacher Pensions were funded at or above 90%

Good Luck!

P.S. We can debate national politics on a different thread!

You don't debate. Since the day you came on here as tvtimeout, you've whined about the government's failure to support Eastern Kentucky and now you're whining because you want taxpayers to fund your pension.

What's funny is a hopelessly entrenched liberal who can't distinguish from among party, religion and heritage, trying to play a true or false game.

[Bob Seger]

Lol! You crack me up! nicker: Pelosi...really...

Easy Quiz

1. True or False; Teachers are tax payers
2. True or False; Teachers spend money in their communities
3. True or False; Teachers do not get Social Security like you do
4. True or False; When you enter a contract you expect it to be fulfilled
5. True or False; if the state would continue to fund TRS, it would be over 80% in the next decade.
6. True of False: Teachers pay into Teacher Retirement at 16%
7. True or False; It would cost the state more money to move ALL teachers to a hedge fund
8. True or False; Teachers are required to get a Masters Degree
9. True or False; Teachers make the equivalent pay of those with a Masters Degree
10. True or False; Teachers pension is at 54%

Bonus Question for you!
11. True or False: When the GOP took over the state Senate Teacher Pensions were funded at or above 90%

Good Luck!

P.S. We can debate national politics on a different thread!

Either you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about or you intentionally falsified your numbers..

As with that moron, tvtimeout, it is more than likely BOTH.

[mr.fundamental]

Either you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about or you intentionally falsified your numbers..

As with that moron, tvtimeout, it is more than likely BOTH.

Challenge excepted! Point out which numbers are incorrect

[mr.fundamental]

You don't debate. Since the day you came on here as tvtimeout, you've whined about the government's failure to support Eastern Kentucky and now you're whining because you want taxpayers to fund your pension.

What's funny is a hopelessly entrenched liberal who can't distinguish from among party, religion and heritage, trying to play a true or false game.

I point out that is the contract the tax payers and teachers agreed to. I point out that teachers are tax payers. Say what you will but you refuse to answer any questions.

[TheRealVille]

Lying? When did Bevin ever lie?...The citizens of the great state of Kentucky voted him into office based on his promise to clean up the mess that liberal democrats created for state workers. Just doin what he promised he'd do..

And stupid is crawling back to the immoral ones that stole it from you to begin with.

But hey , you cant beat this bunch who care so deeply for our youth and do everything in their powers to lead them into the paths of righteousness and morality..

Uh, that is, until a buck gets in between them.

From 1996 until 2001, although democrats held the majority in the senate, 5 democrats caucused with republicans to give republicans control. In 2001 republicans took total number control of the senate, and have held it since. Republicans have controlled the senate for 20+ years. Paul Patton transferred a little over 100k out of the pension fund, then after that Fletcher transferred multimillions. Every governor after has followed suit.The pension was a contract that both parties screwed the teachers and state workers on. My wife is within 9 years of being able to retire with her promised pension, until this bunch jammed their poop bill through. Now, if she doesn't take a huge cut, and retire by 2013, she will have to work an addition 10 years after her promised time to retire. In 2013 she will be within 4 years of her promised, full pension. The politicians, all of them stole the money. They should find new revenue to replace it, not put the burden on the people they stole the money from.

I knew this would be a discussion here. I'm sure glad this "Hillary voting satan worshiper" stopped by.

[TheRealThing]

I point out that is the contract the tax payers and teachers agreed to. I point out that teachers are tax payers. Say what you will but you refuse to answer any questions.

Taxpayers agreed to do it once. Not repeatedly so that clueless and classless politicians can use the funds for whatever.

This is the plight of any pension fund that politicians can legally lay their hands on. My union has been fighting them off for years and you can bet it really eats at them.

[Real Badman]

You don't debate. Since the day you came on here as tvtimeout, you've whined about the government's failure to support Eastern Kentucky and now you're whining because you want taxpayers to fund your pension.

What's funny is a hopelessly entrenched liberal who can't distinguish from among party, religion and heritage, trying to play a true or false game.

I'm confused about your post. You reply to stats with attacks and childish rhetoric? The fact hold truth, Teachers have got the short stick with this nonsense.

[TheRealThing]

I'm confused about your post. You reply to stats with attacks and childish rhetoric? The fact hold truth, Teachers have got the short stick with this nonsense.

Well let me clear things up for you.
1) - tvtimeout's stats are errant.
2) - tvtimeout's argument goes as follows... People were sailing along and things appeared to be just fine up until Beshear left office.

But then Bevin took office, and it became clear that the pension fund was anything BUT fully funded. I say no point in shooting the messenger.

Yes the teachers are in the lurch in all of this and it stinks.

NO, I don't want my taxes raised yet again so that politicians can re-appropriate the funds they already spent elsewhere. However, I am certain that Kentucky will accept any donation you may want to render in consideration of the problem.

[Real Badman]

Well let me clear things up for you.
1) - tvtimeout's stats are errant.
2) - tvtimeout's argument goes as follows... People were sailing along and things appeared to be just fine up until Beshear left office.

But then Bevin took office, and it became clear that the pension fund was anything BUT fully funded. I say no point in shooting the messenger.

Yes the teachers are in the lurch in all of this and it stinks.

NO, I don't want my taxes raised yet again so that politicians can re-appropriate the funds they already spent elsewhere. However, I am certain that Kentucky will accept any donation you may want to render in consideration of the problem.

Please provide the proper statistics with correct references. I'm curious to see what you can come up with. Likewise, I'm sure teachers don't give a hoot about your taxes if it mattered that their pension would be fully funded.

[TheRealThing]

Please provide the proper statistics with correct references. I'm curious to see what you can come up with. Likewise, I'm sure teachers don't give a hoot about your taxes if it mattered that their pension would be fully funded.

[SIZE="4"]
S&P Global Ratings---[/SIZE]

"The study shows that in 2014, only 15 states followed policies that funded at least 100 percent of their pension needs. [B]Kentucky trailed the pack [/B]of the other 35 states because the state paid only 35 percent of the more than $2.6 billion Pew estimates it should have to outpace interest.

Kentucky has the worst-funded pension system in the nation, compounded by the fact that of all the states, the commonwealth is doing the worst at paying off its pension debt."
http://wfpl.org/studies-show-kentuckys-s...in-nation/


Now, I don't believe for one second that you will bother to read the relatively short article for which I have provided the link above. And which details the grim truth about the Kentucky pension fund and the fact that ALL the shenanigans went down prior to Governor Matt Bevin's tenure. The irony is that Kentucky paid 123 million to investment managers over the past several years to watch over the pension fund. But that fact is eclipsed by the following incredible statistic, (you did ask for 'proper statistics,' did you not?) Kentucky, underfunded the pension fund 15 of the past 22 years. The fund has not been funded at 100% for over a quarter Century.

BTW, I guess I must have missed the part where YOU, or tvtime or anybody else bothered to back up what they were saying with any kind of link. But, how am I doing so far?

[Real Badman]

[SIZE="4"]
S&P Global Ratings---[/SIZE]

"The study shows that in 2014, only 15 states followed policies that funded at least 100 percent of their pension needs. [B]Kentucky trailed the pack [/B]of the other 35 states because the state paid only 35 percent of the more than $2.6 billion Pew estimates it should have to outpace interest.

Kentucky has the worst-funded pension system in the nation, compounded by the fact that of all the states, the commonwealth is doing the worst at paying off its pension debt."
http://wfpl.org/studies-show-kentuckys-s...in-nation/

Now, I don't believe for one second that you will bother to read the relatively short article for which I have provided the link above. And which details the grim truth about the Kentucky pension fund and the fact that ALL the shenanigans went down prior to Governor Matt Bevin's tenure. The irony is that Kentucky paid 123 million to investment managers over the past several years to watch over the pension fund. But that fact is eclipsed by the following incredible statistic, (you did ask for 'proper statistics,' did you not?) Kentucky, underfunded the pension fund 15 of the past 22 years. The fund has not been funded at 100% for over a quarter Century.

BTW, I guess I must have missed the part where YOU, or tvtime or anybody else bothered to back up what they were saying with any kind of link. But, how am I doing so far?

I don't think you're understanding my point of view. I don't care who caused the mess. Kentucky has plenty of ways to alleviate the cost of this problem. If you think it won't impact education, then you're just plain silly. That is my focus. We can go on a witch hunt about why democrats are idiots and republicans (especially that barely functioning moron Matt Bevin) are evil, but that isn't my issue. Y'all up north are hard to find the key points.

[Hoot Gibson]

A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on Paul's support.

Any government that robs future generations of their hard earned money to buy the votes of current and retired government employees is not worthy of anybody's support. Regressive taxes on stupidity such as lotteries and so-called "sin" taxes are not moral endeavors in which our federal and state governments should be engaged.

Retirement funding in the public sector should be paid by public sector employees, the same way that the private sector funds retirement. Any other funding method is just plain bribery and theft.

[Real Badman]

Education is more important than taxing preferences.

[Hoot Gibson]

Education is more important than taxing preferences.

If we cannot afford to pay teachers with current tax dollars, then we should not be stealing from future taxpayers. Somebody has to pay, and we need to be paying teachers, including their benefits packages, what this generation can pay - not plunging future generations so deeply into debt that they will never be able to pay it.

There should be no publicly funded pension plans that rely on future tax receipts. Retirement plans should consist of voluntary 401-K and other contributions that are part of public employees' benefits packages paid by current taxpayers.

Politicians will always hand out benefits to government employees, as long as they can pass the bill to future generations. This is not a philosophical question - it is a very clear case of right versus wrong. Theft is always wrong.

[Real Badman]

All taxation is theft. It's the fundamental core nature of that ideology. What if I said I didn't want to pay taxes for infrastructure because my roads are fine? Or because don't want to pay for the upkeep of Police Stations?

With the system that Bevin has into play, KY teachers will become less and less effective.

[Hoot Gibson]

All taxation is theft. It's the fundamental core nature of that ideology. What if I said I didn't want to pay taxes for infrastructure because my roads are fine? Or because don't want to pay for the upkeep of Police Stations?

With the system that Bevin has into play, KY teachers will become less and less effective.

Taxes are necessary to support current government services. When politicians dip their hands into the pockets of future generations of taxpayers, it is theft. That is a fundamental difference between the way that conservatives view government and the way that liberals view it. Liberals show little concern for future generations, as long as current public sector employees are happy and continue to vote for liberal Democrats. That system is not sustainable over the long haul. Somebody will pay the price someday and that somebody will be paying for services that they will never receive.

At some point in the future, state government will be unable to meet the obligations that former office holders have made to retirees, whether it wants to or not. It is better to fix the system now than to continue saddling people who have not yet been born with ever growing public debt.

[Real Badman]

And at the end of the day, people vote their wallets. Rule one of elections.

[TheRealThing]

Please provide the proper statistics with correct references. I'm curious to see what you can come up with. Likewise, I'm sure teachers don't give a hoot about your taxes if it mattered that their pension would be fully funded.

I don't think you're understanding my point of view. I don't care who caused the mess. Kentucky has plenty of ways to alleviate the cost of this problem. If you think it won't impact education, then you're just plain silly. That is my focus. We can go on a witch hunt about why democrats are idiots and republicans (especially that barely functioning moron Matt Bevin) are evil, but that isn't my issue. Y'all up north are hard to find the key points.

LOL, so much for curiosity huh?

No I got your point of view just fine. Hoot spoke to the issue perhaps a bit more eloquently than I, but in the end the result is always the same. Anybody, and I mean ANYBODY, that hitches their pension fund wagon to government will rue the day. In fact, the KY teacher pension fund shortfall is but a microcosm of the much bigger problem all Americans face. Total unfunded liabilities for this country, (pensions and such) total a staggering 211 Trillion dollars according to HUD Director Ben Carson. The total GDP for the US is only 20 Trillion. So if we took every dime we could muster for the next decade, we'd still be significantly behind the power curve. The point is this; no there aren't "plenty of ways to alleviate this problem,' not in Kentucky or anywhere else in this land. In fact many economists believe we are staring at a thousand foot high economic tsunami, it just hasn't gotten here yet. And though the Kentucky economy is but a speck on America's financial picture, that tsunami will prove to be just as devastating.

Frankly, education is just one of the many symptoms attributable to the financial woes headed our way. Even while every aspect of our way of life is under similar threat, owing to lack of money, you still got the Bernie Sanders wing of the Party out there promising free everything. People like Trump and Bevin are trying to belt tighten enough to spare us complete devastation, but Dems would evidently see us on history's ash heap before they'd give up on their quest to rule.

Or put another way... As Margaret Thatcher said, we have come to the end of 'other peoples' money.

[Hoot Gibson]

And at the end of the day, people vote their wallets. Rule one of elections.

People vote what they believe will be best for their wallets and that is what will ultimately destroy our economy and cost us our security and wealth as a nation. What is actually best for our wallets is a strictly limited government that keeps its hands out of our pockets to the greatest extent possible. However, it is impossible to convince voters of that fact when politicians continue to insist that free lunches provided by the government are really free.

[YOUTUBE="Milton Friedman - The Free Lunch Myth"]YmqoCHR14n8[/YOUTUBE]