[Blacksmith]

Baseball and softball should have been classed years ago. It's ridiculous that it hasn't been.
Need to go 4 classes or 5. Either would be fine.
8 team state tourneys for each class, and double elimination.

Im surprised it hasn't been even in Kentucky were we are slow to change.. It just makes sense to me personally. many,many other states if not most do it already.

[Pulp Fiction]

We have three 6A schools and one 4A school for the semi-finals.

[WildDawg]

In my opinion there should be classes for baseball and basketball. It should be the same as football. It's really a shame khsaa hasn't put something like this in place yet.

[Single Wing 77]

I don't think a full six class system is doable, or appealing. I do however think that a two or three class system would be good. I'd like for them to keep the districts as is, and split the regions by class then go from there.

[Pulp Fiction]

FWIW, Baseball state champions since the KHSAA went to the 6 class system.

2016 - 6A (St. X)
2015 - 4A (West Jess.)
2014 - 6A (St. X)
2013 - 6A (PRP)
2012 - 5A (WoFoCo)
2011 - 6A (Central Hardin)
2010 - 4A (Harrison Co.)
2009 - 4A (Lex. Cath.) LC was 4A in 2009.
2008 - 6A (PRP)
2007 - 6A (Dunbar)

The last 1A team was LCA in 2005. Before that, it was Paintsville in 1990.

[WildDawg]

^^Hopefully they never will.

Hopefully they will.

[WildDawg]

FWIW, Baseball state champions since the KHSAA went to the 6 class system.

2016 - 6A (St. X)
2015 - 4A (West Jess.)
2014 - 6A (St. X)
2013 - 6A (PRP)
2012 - 5A (WoFoCo)
2011 - 6A (Central Hardin)
2010 - 4A (Harrison Co.)
2009 - 4A (Lex. Cath.) LC was 4A in 2009.
2008 - 6A (PRP)
2007 - 6A (Dunbar)

The last 1A team was LCA in 2005. Before that, it was Paintsville in 1990.

6A has more championships than all other classes combined. If that doesn't tell you the system is broken you're in denial. Nice post pulp.

[baller1989]

I would venture to say, the ones that say there is nothing wrong w/ the system or have just 3 classes for example are from larger schools?????

[Pulp Fiction]

FWIW, Baseball state champions since the KHSAA went to the 6 class system.

2017 - 6A (PRP)
2016 - 6A (St. X)
2015 - 4A (West Jessamine)
2014 - 6A (St. X)
2013 - 6A (PRP)
2012 - 5A (Woodford County)
2011 - 6A (Central Hardin)
2010 - 4A (Harrison County)
2009 - 4A (Lex. Cath.) LC was 4A in 2009.
2008 - 6A (PRP)
2007 - 6A (PL Dunbar)

The last 1A team was LCA in 2005. Before that, it was Paintsville in 1990.

Updated.


Did some more research, not sure what Football Class these teams where in during the years they won the state baseball championship. I stopped looking after the 1970's.

Four Football Class system
1985 - Owensboro Catholic (Currently 2A)
1984 - East Carter (Currently 4A)

Three Football Class system
1974 - Somerset (Currently 2A)
1972 - Caverna (Currently 1A)

[WildDawg]

You might as well put PRP for 2018 too.

[baller1989]

........and as a program.

you have some very valid points! and yes, Paintsville did it, but how long did it take for them to do it? and who was their opponent. When will they be able to do it again and no this is not something against Paintsville at all ( they are doing some things right and they would more than likely agree w/ me that classes are needed in all sports )? 6A schools win championships every time the wind blows. I love the stories of the David vs. Goliath just as much as the other guy and I understand that you should strive to succeed and reach for the stars, but as a program and a school that has maybe 3-5 athletes competing against a school that has 8-10 athletes then the smaller school will just run out of numbers and eventually it will work against them. Coming from a larger school and seeing stellar athletes competing against you will always make you wonder the what if's? And no, it's not always about a trophy but we are just talking about high school. I know there are life lessons, but it is high school. let me give you another example, if you had a great athlete playing on a small school team and he is at the corner of the state that only the few get to hear about and see but doesn't play on these large AAU teams etc.., if there were still the classes that we have today, then that would hinder him from an opportunity of playing at the next level. We all know a similar story around such as this.. but, if there were smaller classes or classes at all for that particular sport and that athlete were allowed to play in a state tournament for that particular sport, then possibly he/ she could get looked at by a scout and reach that goal?? It's not all about watering down the system..... it's giving the system a fair and equal balance to the competition in that said sport equally

[Pulp Fiction]

If you are For or Against Classification, I urge you to go check out the thread I started in the Football forum.

[Commanche]

Not at all...

In this area teams like Johnson Central and Lawrence Co. fully have the potential to win an overall state title just the way they are.....Paintsville did it.

When you provide a watered down trophy you WILL NEVER reach your full potential. The idea is to be the best you can possibly be and never quit striving to reach that goal...Is your goal to make it to Class A ball as a player or to make it to the bigs? It's the same thing....It's not 100% all about a plastic trophy, it's knowing that you have done the very best you can do and have become the very best you can be....Lessen the goal and you will become complacent as a player.

We already have the All A for smaller schools, they just need to publicize it harder. Also Pikeville went to the Final Four in 2010 as a Single A school and very well could have brought home the trophy. It would not have meant as much winning a Single A State Tournament as finishing in the Final Four in the regular State Tournament. This can be argued and defended from both sides but as for me and mine, leave Baseball alone.

[LCHSbulldogsalum]

We already have the All A for smaller schools, they just need to publicize it harder. Also Pikeville went to the Final Four in 2010 as a Single A school and very well could have brought home the trophy. It would not have meant as much winning a Single A State Tournament as finishing in the Final Four in the regular State Tournament. This can be argued and defended from both sides but as for me and mine, leave Baseball alone.

I respect your opinion, however........

Ask Belfry if their AAA football titles mean "less" because it wasn't an un-classed state title. Ask the schools in West Virginia, or Ohio, or Virginia, etc. if their state titles in baseball means "less".

I don't buy anyone's argument that mentions "water-down" state titles with a classified system. I think a 4 class system, with a super-regional (double elimination) and a semi-state (best of three) concluding with a Final Four state championship would be great. What the state would get, and see, is the top 16 teams ranging from small to large schools in the state tournament. This would not be "watered down", you would have the 4 best A, AA, AAA, and AAAA teams in the state. What you would NOT get is the current system:

1 or 2 small size schools vs. the large schools.

[LCHSbulldogsalum]

If you are For or Against Classification, I urge you to go check out the thread I started in the Football forum.

I respect the research you have put in to this. I don't think anyone arguing for a classification system for baseball is doing it to make it "easier" or "watered down"......they are doing it to make it FAIR. A 4 class system would be suffice, and would make the state tournament even more exciting by including the top schools from small to large in Lexington.

[Pulp Fiction]

I respect your opinion, however........

Ask Belfry if their AAA football titles mean "less" because it wasn't an un-classed state title. Ask the schools in West Virginia, or Ohio, or Virginia, etc. if their state titles in baseball means "less".

I don't buy anyone's argument that mentions "water-down" state titles with a classified system. I think a 4 class system, with a super-regional (double elimination) and a semi-state (best of three) concluding with a Final Four state championship would be great. What the state would get, and see, is the top 16 teams ranging from small to large schools in the state tournament. This would not be "watered down", you would have the 4 best A, AA, AAA, and AAAA teams in the state. What you would NOT get is the current system:

1 or 2 small size schools vs. the large schools.

Believe it or not, I'm a Belfry fan when they are not playing JC. They are 15th region team and represent our Mountains!!!

In 2013, Scott County won 6A and Bowling Green won 5A, those were the best two teams in the entire state that season... Belfry probably wouldn't have won it that year had it not been Classed.

In 2014, Trinity won 6A, Belfry doesn't win it that year.

In 2015, Male won 6A, Belfry doesn't win it that year.

In 2016, Trinity won 6A and Bowling Green won 5A, Belfry wouldn't have won it that year either.


That's Belfry's 4-Peat... gone. Not saying Belfry wouldn't have been able to play with any team the past four seasons, but I really don't see Belfry winning their 4-Peat without football being Classed. So Belfry fans, please don't send me anymore hate mail, I promise I'm a pirate fan when you guys aren't playing JC, but any logical member of the PCN would have to (somewhat) agree with me.

This is just one of several examples across the state I could have used from different sports.



I'll say it, my beloved Johnson Central probably doesn't win our first state football title last season if football wasn't Classed. And NO.... winning a Classed state didn't take any enjoyment or prestige away..... it was incredible for our school and our community. The team had a caravan of fans following them back from Bowling Green and the road leading in to town was lined with fans showing their support. Not to mention the amount of people that showed up at the high school when the team returned home with the trophy.

[Blacksmith]

Winning,classes and championships aside. A big school in a big community with 2,000+ students will always have some advantages over a small community with a school that has 350 students. Infrastructure,athlete talent pool,facilities,etc. Larger areas will have bigger leagues,more kids,AAu,travel ball,camps,showcases and good facilities. . Heck we don't even have a batting cage for kids to use. No indoor baseball related facilities at all. Where many larger community's have facilities like that open to the public were any kid can go to train. Small community's most often do not. if you want to hit balls here in the winter you have to paint them green so you can find them in the snow nicker:
I say our athletes from small local community's are as good as anywhere but would really be nice to have some good facilities to use sometimes.

[MHS Parent4Life]

Football needs to be classed....baseball not.

2 stud pitchers (the great equalizer) with nothing more than an average or slightly above average lineup automatically makes you a contender.

This is drastically over simplifying it. First of all, it takes 3 starting pitchers to even get you through the regional tournament. Secondly, it becomes increasingly less likely that the small schools have the quality of relief pitchers necessary to hold off a solid hitting squad.

[MHS Parent4Life]

The fact of the matter is this, yes small schools could potentially win a title. Granted they would have to beat the 6A powerhouses but I will cede that it is still possible. That said, they shouldn't have to do that if we're speaking in terms of fairness. Not all high schools or communities are created equally. I'm not a proponent for 6 classes but a system that doesn't require a 1A or 2A school going through the likes of PRP, St. X, or Trinity would be nice.


In terms of my alma mater, Middlesboro made the Final Four in 2002 and lost to Trinity. They also went in 1999 and lost to Lexington Catholic.

[Pulp Fiction]

It's called the All "A" Tournament.

The All A state tournament for all sports would mean much more (and we probably wouldn't be having this discussion) if it was a true KHSAA state championship. Not called 'The A All Classic' or something like that.
Keep the Sponsorship name, but call it "The ------ KHSAA "All A" State Championship".


This may be the best solution to solve the long overdue need for Classification.

[baller1989]

Nope....Camps and showcases have a much bigger impact on that to begin with....If you can throw 90 or run a 6.7 , 60 that is all they need (and really want) to see.

we all know that is not always the case. showcases and camps are not the fix! plus what if the kid doesn't have the money to spend. to get a free pass to a camp we also know that a school is interested in the kid and I'm trying to get the kid exposed to allow a scout to get interested. IT'S NOT THAT EASY!!! you have to look at all kids and not just a few. there are stellar athletes in some hollows of ky and can't afford to get shoes or gas to get somewhere and with a school playing in a tournament that allows the kid to get exposed

[Pulp Fiction]

Has everyone that is crying for classes forgotten about tiny little Shelby Valley High School winning a state championshipship in basketball just 7 short years ago.

Since 2007, only three, non-private, 1A or 2A schools have won any non-classed team state titles.

2007 - Glasgow; Girls Golf
2009 & 2010 - Green County; Girls Golf
2010 - Shelby Valley - Boys Basketball (Before this, Paintsville was the last 1A or 2A school in 1996)

[Pulp Fiction]

Has everyone that is crying for classes forgotten about tiny little Shelby Valley High School winning a state championshipship in basketball just 7 short years ago.

Since 2007, only three, non-private, 1A or 2A schools have won any non-classed team state titles.

2007 - Glasgow; Girls Golf
2009 & 2010 - Green County; Girls Golf
2010 - Shelby Valley - Boys Basketball (Before this, Paintsville was the last 1A or 2A school in 1996)

^ Good for them...Shows they worked hard to get better and didn't listen to everyone who said it couldn't be done.

Go back and look at post #50 in this thread.

[MHS Parent4Life]

Seger, you're just obviously out of touch with the plight of small schools. Bill Powell, who is in the KHSBCA Hall of Fame mind you and won over 600 games, left nothing on the table. You simply can't will a town into making great athletes. What he had the ability to do was to make an average athlete, an above average baseball player. He was fortunate to get some good athletes come through and was able to take a class A school to the Final Four a few times. There was absolutely nothing more that he could have done. Your comment about just having to work hard is just wrong. Now, with the population of Middlesboro rapidly declining, the little league is a shadow of what it once was. Is John Smith supposed to birth two studs himself? If producing pitching studs was so easy, don't you think every team would have them?

The fact that you're comparing small schools winning a title in basketball and baseball shows me that you don't fully grasp the depth that it takes win a title in baseball in the first place.

[MHS Parent4Life]

It's called the All "A" Tournament.

I said this about 50 posts ago...make it legitimate and teams will treat it as such.

[MHS Parent4Life]

No it doesn't....You can throw off on a very weak 1st round opponent.

Refer to the word "stud". Two stud starters could not have to have relief.

Not every district or region is created equally. And how often is there a "very weak" 1st round opponent in a regional tournament? Middlesboro played district runner-up South Laurel in the first round. Throwing off could have been a grave mistake. Additionally, as I said before, staffs at smaller schools drop off at a significantly greater rate than at larger schools.

[MHS Parent4Life]

FWIW, Baseball state champions since the KHSAA went to the 6 class system.

2016 - 6A (St. X)
2015 - 4A (West Jess.)
2014 - 6A (St. X)
2013 - 6A (PRP)
2012 - 5A (WoFoCo)
2011 - 6A (Central Hardin)
2010 - 4A (Harrison Co.)
2009 - 4A (Lex. Cath.) LC was 4A in 2009.
2008 - 6A (PRP)
2007 - 6A (Dunbar)

The last 1A team was LCA in 2005. Before that, it was Paintsville in 1990.

I guess the small schools just didn't want to win bad enough. They were all outworked and talent level available at their schools had nothing to do with it. The fact that many schools have less than 150 boys while some of these have 1000+ also has absolutely nothing to do with JT.

[MHS Parent4Life]

Nah,I don't know anything about it goofball.....hh:

Seems like I had to prove you wrong a couple of years ago about North Laural when you acted like you knew everything about everything and ended up not knowing anything....:biggrin:

Who ever said it was easy? It called having someone knowing what they are doing, developing them...Why do you think that schools like Johnson Central and Boyd County are stud making pitching machines that crank them out year after year? Paintsville, Lawrence Co. and Pikeville always do a good job too. Just because your program apparently cant do it, doesn't mean it cant be done.

Stud making pitching machines, eh? If only they had an "average lineup", they could have won some titles. Also, again, both of those schools are considerably bigger than a place like Middlesboro.

Additionally, Middlesboro has won 14 regional titles and been to 6 Final Fours. They've proven they can win. I'm not comparing program histories here. I'm saying Middlesboro, Pikeville, Paintsville, any school not named LCA that qualifies for the All A is at a marked disadvantage due to the disparity in enrollment between them and the state champions of the past decade.

I'm not saying it's impossible for them to win the title. But why must they just submit to such an inherent disadvantage?

As someone else said, split the schools into two classes coming tournament time. I can say with certainty that the winner of the 1A-3A division will not feel like their title was cheapened.

[Pupaw]

I'm all for keeping the system as is in baseball and basketball. I've talked with numerous athletes in other states over the years and almost all of them are envious of the system that we have in place here. As for the All A being treated differently than the standard State Tournament, I can promise you that's not the case for the teams participating in it. Keep football classed, and leave basketball and baseball alone as it is. Everyone considers the state basketball tournament "The Greatest Show in Hoops", so why is baseball any different?

[Pulp Fiction]

And then there are those that think that everyone deserves a participation trophy too.

Do you see anyone from Paintsville or Pikeville cry babying for a class system? Do you see Beechwood people whining about it? No, you don't..All 1A programs who have either won an outright state title or contended for it. I would venture to guess that your whining about it is not representative of the Middlesboro system either..But, you always have one of those guys who want something for nothing that is just plain jealous of what someone else has worked for and earned.

What I really find embarrassing is that you have a JC supporter on here whining about it. Johnson Central is very capable of winning the thing outright just as it is....Based on the success the baseball program is having, consistently beating those traditional 6th, 7th, and 11th region powers, why in the world would you want to cheapen a possible outright state title?...It makes no sense at all.

The KHSAA has set it up now for smaller schools to not have to have a really deep pitching staff to be a contender. I cant say that I am a big fan of the KHSAA on all things, but thank goodness that the KHSAA have people in place right now with enough sense to keep the thing the way it is.

I've presented evidence and valid arguments to support a Class system in some form. Maybe every sport doesn't need to be Classed, but some are long past due. The numbers tell the story. Just because we've had the same system for the past 100 years doesn't mean it's right or what can be a better system now.

Can somebody give me the reason why Track & Field and Cross Country are Classed? Of all the sports the KHSAA offers, those two are Classed and many others should be, but aren't.


If Classification is so bad, then why are so many other states Classed as well as the NCAA?