[RunItUpTheGut]

I love it when a liberal is around. This board pops, and TRT is always on his A game.

[Hoot Gibson]

Have you seen the list of his top picks? All girls and all liberals. I mean, it ain't like we don't already have two of his appointees on the court already. So, all this moderate talk being bantied about is pure baloney. He'll pick somebody who will see us in flames long before they would rule from the middle.

There will not be much difference between Obama's last pick and Trump's appointments. Neither one has more than a passing interest in the Constitution.

[Truth]

What I am going to tell you is that I am not playing blame games or accusing people on the right. I am saying that "we" in terms of justice and equal protection and freedom of conscience had to expand from the worldview of the Framers, and depending on the Tenth Amendment and amending the Constitution in matters of establishing fundamental justice, fundamental equal protection, fundamental freedom of conscience is not be-all-end-all sufficient.

The constitution provides no "freedom of conscience" any more than it provides for right to privacy, homo marriage, or abortion rights. These "ideas" are liberal fiats.

[The Urban Sombrero]

"Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of religion"... See references to Roger Williams and establishment of Rhode Island

[TheRealThing]

What I am going to tell you is that I am not playing blame games or accusing people on the right. I am saying that "we" in terms of justice and equal protection and freedom of conscience had to expand from the worldview of the Framers, and depending on the Tenth Amendment and amending the Constitution in matters of establishing fundamental justice, fundamental equal protection, fundamental freedom of conscience is not be-all-end-all sufficient.

Well, Satan told Eve that her mind would be expanded if she ate from the forbidden tree. And you're trying to tell me that society's newfound zeal for sexual depravation is a matter of our just having expanded our world view past that of the Framers. :please:

My view is such that the homosexual, desperate for validation or just plain defiant in his trespass, has resorted to using the courts to legislate the citizenry of this land into submission. How did they accomplish that? In a word, money. Gays-R-us, got themselves some money and hired certain unscrupulous lawyers to sue anybody and everybody. Unbelievably, for at least as long as Obama is President, homosexuality, gay marriage, men working with men that which is unseemly, is now legal. Resultant of the afore mentioned court actions are laws written by man, to say that it is legal. Congratulations, you have succeeded in compromising the law, eroding it, diminishing it to something that to me, smells like monkey puke.

I say that the account of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, serves as putting such men who have seared their consciences with a hot iron, on fair notice. Judgment at the hand of God is coming to them, and not to them only, but to all who will not accept the truth. That however, does not diminish the fact that societies which embrace acts of homosexuality as a matter of national consciousness, will fall, and in short order. That includes one's that have their founding documents displayed in a specially designed bronze containers.

[TheRealThing]

The constitution provides no "freedom of conscience" any more than it provides for right to privacy, homo marriage, or abortion rights. These "ideas" are liberal fiats.

He knows that Truth. His whole deal is to live to see America subverted into a state of impotency. Guarantee you he is all-in for Hillary.

[The Urban Sombrero]

Well, Satan told Eve that her mind would be expanded if she ate from the forbidden tree. And you're trying to tell me that society's newfound zeal for sexual depravation is a matter of our just having expanded our world view past that of the Framers. :please:

My view is such that the homosexual, desperate for validation or just plain defiant in his trespass, has resorted to using the courts to legislate the citizenry of this land into submission. How did they accomplish that? In a word, money. Gays-R-us, got themselves some money and hired certain unscrupulous lawyers to sue anybody and everybody. Unbelievably, for at least as long as Obama is President, homosexuality, gay marriage, men working with men that which is unseemly, is now legal. Resultant of the afore mentioned court actions are laws written by man, to say that it is legal. Congratulations, you have succeeded in compromising the law, eroding it, diminishing it to something that to me smells like monkey puke.

I say that the account of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, serves as putting such men who have seared their consciences with a hot iron, on fair notice. Judgment at the hand of God is coming to them, and not to them only, but to all who will not accept the truth. That however, does not diminish the fact that societies which embrace acts of homosexuality as a matter of national consciousness, will fall, and in short order. That includes one's that have their founding documents displayed in a specially designed bronze containers.

The refusal to compel the conscience is not the same as approval of the behavior, and no amount of angry, verbal fist pounding changes that.

[The Urban Sombrero]

He knows that Truth. His whole deal is to live to see America subverted into a state of impotency. Guarantee you he is all-in for Hillary.

See Roger Williams and references to establishment of Rhode Island. Williams called it "liberty of conscience" or most often "soul liberty."

[TheRealThing]

The refusal to compel the conscience is not the same as approval of the behavior, and no amount of angry, verbal fist pounding changes that.

LOL, I accept your surrender.

[TheRealThing]

See Roger Williams and references to establishment of Rhode Island. Williams called it "liberty of conscience" or most often "soul liberty."

Naw, you go ahead though.

[The Urban Sombrero]

LOL, I accept your surrender.

And, once again, the boxer throws his hands up in the air signaling victory, but, ultimately, 'tis an empty gesture, as the judge is not swayed by his empty flailing at victory.

[TheRealThing]

^^Well now the way I see it, those should have been the words of 'the judge'. Not the guy sitting on the mat all banged up and bleeding from his encounter.

[The Urban Sombrero]

^^Well now the way I see it, those should have been the words of 'the judge'. Not the guy sitting on the mat all banged up and bleeding from his encounter.

You see it as you see it, untroubled by Roger Williams and his influence on the Framers. That's fine. However, my view of freedom of conscience remains unbloodied and unbowed.

[TheRealThing]

You see it as you see it, untroubled by Roger Williams and his influence on the Framers. That's fine. However, my view of freedom of conscience remains unbloodied and unbowed.

You really like the weird ones don't you? You've been over in the Spirituality/Religion Forum quoting Thomas Merton of all people, who thought that it was only he from among the living, who properly understood God. And your favorite nut cake from among the misfits who dabbled in politics during the days of the founders, is Roger Williams. I would encourage anybody who would like to get a good view of borderline personality disorders from that day in action, to do a little research on those two guys. :eyeroll:

[The Urban Sombrero]

You really like the weird ones don't you? You've been over in the Spirituality/Religion Forum quoting Thomas Merton of all people, who thought that it was only he from among the living, who properly understood God. And your favorite nut cake from among the misfits who dabbled in politics during the days of the founders, is Roger Williams. I would encourage anybody who would like to get a good view of borderline personality disorders from that day in action, to do a little research on those two guys. :eyeroll:

Perhaps in Roger Williams' case the Framers liked borderline personalities, because his views and experience certainly influenced them.

[The Urban Sombrero]

I would add that Williams pre-dated the "days of the Founders" by, oh, 100 years.

[TheRealThing]

Perhaps in Roger Williams' case the Framers liked borderline personalities, because his views and experience certainly influenced them.

I would add that Williams pre-dated the "days of the Founders" by, oh, 100 years.

Well, he was banging around over here for most of his life which was as you point out, pre-constitution days. But I thought the point you were making was that he influenced the framers, right?

Williams was a paradox. He came to America to escape persecution and oppression from the Church of England. And as you know, I have pointed out in times past that the unholy merging of he Crown and the Church resulted in great oppression to it's members. England in those times was the next thing to a theocracy.

Once he got to America he did in fact separate himself from the Church of England, which had by that time gotten a firm foothold here as well. Dismayed to realize that the corruption he fled in England was already rampant in the colonies, Williams refused to have anything else to do with it. He worked instead, extensively and lived among the native Indians. This is when it was determined that Williams was a bit off his nut. Though a devout Christian, and though he had become fluent in the Indian tongue, he none the less converted no one to the faith.

As I mentioned, the reason he would have nothing to do with the orthodoxy here in the US was because it had ties and was controlled in large degree by the mother Church in England. His ideas of separation were exactly as I have argued in the case of Jefferson who is no doubt who you think Williams influenced. Roger Williams wanted to keep the state out of Church business. He'd had all of the State Church he could stomach. The idea of the wall was to keep the State out of Church, nested safely behind the wall of separation, not to keep the church trapped within.

The State was guilty of tyranny against the Church, the wall would have in Williams mind, existed in matters of jurisprudence and stood against intrusion by the State. It appears I was a little hard on Mr Williams, my apologies to him. I had not considered that he aspired to the proper view of the concept of separation of Church and State. He might not have been so much with regard to Indian affairs as that applied in evangelical terms, but he had his ducks in a row on separation.

[The Urban Sombrero]

I think Williams gaged rightly that both church and state had historically trampled asunder liberty of conscience, and when the two were joined, the historicity and future potential for atrocity were perhaps greatest.

[The Urban Sombrero]

He also deemed it arrogant, as do I, for any nation on earth to believe God deals with it as He did ancient Israel.

[TheRealThing]

He also deemed it arrogant, as do I, for any nation on earth to believe God deals with it as He did ancient Israel.

Well, the Bible doesn't teach that. The Gospel was through the Person of our Lord Jesus, brought into this world to the Jew first and then the Gentile.

History and sovereignty separated the track of the Gentile world from the track of the Jew back when the Jew formally rejected Him (Christ) 2,000 years ago. I personally believe one can date that separation to the one day that on 'The Feast of the Passover,' they stood in front of Pilate's expansive veranda there in Jerusalem and as one, made the following statement (verse 25).
Matthew 27:23-25 (KJV)
23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. (You seemed fuzzy on that one.)

However, the two historical lines will once again merge at the time of the end. And without getting into a lot of prophesy by way of substantiation, those with their eyes open can see evidence of that fact all around. In any case, though the nation Israel is without question God's chosen people, He sent His Son to earth to die for all who would accept Him as Savior.

To deny our own blessed American heritage is immensely delusional. God has dealt with America in much the same way He did Israel. We however, are only a bit over 230 years in existence, He hasn't had the physical time to manifest Himself much more dramatically than He has. And then there is the fact that God does not deal with man in the same way He did before Christ came and lived among men. All men are led by God through their own consciences, and since He has revealed Himself clearly through His Creation, Romans 1:20 (KJV)
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Men, all men, are without excuse.

Roger Williams wanted an America that God could bless and protect in the same way He did Israel. And to a very large degree, Roger Williams got his wish.


Here is how Katharine Lee Bates would put it:

O beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!
America! America! God shed His grace on thee,
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

O beautiful for pilgrim feet,
Whose stern impassion’d stress
A thoroughfare for freedom beat
Across the wilderness!
America! America! God mend thine ev’ry flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law!

O beautiful for heroes proved In liberating strife,
Who more than self their country loved,
And mercy more than life!
America! America! May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness,
And ev’ry gain divine!

O Beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam,
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America! God shed His grace on thee,
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

YOU GO ROGER!!!!

[The Urban Sombrero]

Well, the Bible doesn't teach that. The Gospel was through the Person of our Lord Jesus, brought into this world to the Jew first and then the Gentile.

History and sovereignty separated the track of the Gentile world from the track of the Jew back when the Jew formally rejected Him (Christ) 2,000 years ago. I personally believe one can date that separation to the one day that on 'The Feast of the Passover,' they stood in front of Pilate's expansive veranda there in Jerusalem and as one, made the following statement (verse 25).
Matthew 27:23-25 (KJV)
23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. (You seemed fuzzy on that one.)

However, the two historical lines will once again merge at the time of the end. And without getting into a lot of prophesy by way of substantiation, those with their eyes open can see evidence of that fact all around. In any case, though the nation Israel is without question God's chosen people, He sent His Son to earth to die for all who would accept Him as Savior.

To deny our own blessed American heritage is immensely delusional. God has dealt with America in much the same way He did Israel. We however, are only a bit over 230 years in existence, He hasn't had the physical time to manifest Himself much more dramatically than He has. And then there is the fact that God does not deal with man in the same way He did before Christ came and lived among men. All men are led by God through their own consciences, and since He has revealed Himself clearly through His Creation, Romans 1:20 (KJV)
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Men, all men, are without excuse.

Roger Williams wanted an America that God could bless and protect in the same way He did Israel. And to a very large degree, Roger Williams got his wish.


Here is how Katharine Lee Bates would put it:

O beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!
America! America! God shed His grace on thee,
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

O beautiful for pilgrim feet,
Whose stern impassion’d stress
A thoroughfare for freedom beat
Across the wilderness!
America! America! God mend thine ev’ry flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law!

O beautiful for heroes proved In liberating strife,
Who more than self their country loved,
And mercy more than life!
America! America! May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness,
And ev’ry gain divine!

O Beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam,
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America! God shed His grace on thee,
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

YOU GO ROGER!!!!

Your post reads like propaganda, at best slanted opinion. Roger Williams believed exactly as I said. If America could provide a safe place for Christians and Jews to live and worship, I am sure Roger Williams would approve. The same would be true for Hindu and Muslim. To say that America is regarded by God (Acts 17:26) is one thing; to suggest it stands in covenant as ancient Israel is, to me, ridiculous.

[TheRealThing]

Your post reads like propaganda, at best slanted opinion. Roger Williams believed exactly as I said. If America could provide a safe place for Christians and Jews to live and worship, I am sure Roger Williams would approve. The same would be true for Hindu and Muslim. To say that America is regarded by God (Acts 17:26) is one thing; to suggest it stands in covenant as ancient Israel is, to me, ridiculous.

Well see that's the problem with you. You got hocker on the door knob syndrome and can't concede a point. And like all libs, your revisionist efforts to redefine the lives and the record is what is ridiculous.

You obviously don't have the first clue what Williams believed. That was revealed when you tried to say his separationist views line up with modern liberals. You can't make that fit with the events of England, thankfully you guys cannot rewrite English history too, and you can't make that fit with what happened in his life here in America. The revelation Williams had with regard to his desire to separate himself from the Anglican Church, and that the view he ultimately reached regarding the separation of the Church and the State, was meant to keep the State, as it was fond of doing in England, from intervening in the affairs of the Church. Any other interpretation of the historical record makes no sense whatever.

You did not in your post, in any way name or suggest you thought the Abrahamic Covenant applies directly to Israel and the United States. However, we who have accepted Christ as Lord and Savior are the grafted branch, or if you prefer, we are 'the seed' of Abraham. And what ultimately was the Abrahamic Covenant all about? It was God's own promise to the Jew and Abraham in particular for eternal life without end among other things, to include an increase of Abraham's linage.
Genesis 15:4-5 (KJV)
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.


In the Book of Acts this concept is clarified somewhat by New Testament standards, as that relates to people who enjoy a new covenant by virtue of the Lord's substitutionary death on the cross. Thanks to His unspeakable gift, all those alive or who were born after the coming of Christ, have a different covenant with God. The Jew was ever looking forward to the coming of Christ. Once He came, we now look backward to His having come as Lord and Savior to all mankind. Either way it is God's plan to reconcile sinful men to Himself.

Acts 2:39 (KJV)
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


That is the good news of the Gospel. We are not excluded, we are included by the blood of Jesus Christ.

[The Urban Sombrero]

I know that Roger Williams counted "soul liberty" (freedom of conscience) as paramount, which he learned from being exiled into the wilderness and left to die by church authority. And while I enjoyed your commentary on the inclusiveness of the Gospel, I do not see how it touches the point, nay, the fact, that Roger Williams saw as unique the covenant God made with ancient Israel and that it was arrogant for any nation to claim to stand in that unique relationship. I value the United States inasmuch as it is a place that protects essential liberty, ensures freedom of conscience. It is no accident that Rhode Island was the last of the colonies to ratify the Constitution, contingent upon the Bill of Rights. To somewhat quote a previous poster, "Yay, Roger Williams."

[TheRealThing]

I know that Roger Williams counted "soul liberty" (freedom of conscience) as paramount, which he learned from being exiled into the wilderness and left to die by church authority. And while I enjoyed your commentary on the inclusiveness of the Gospel, I do not see how it touches the point, nay, the fact, that Roger Williams saw as unique the covenant God made with ancient Israel and that it was arrogant for any nation to claim to stand in that unique relationship. I value the United States inasmuch as it is a place that protects essential liberty, ensures freedom of conscience. It is no accident that Rhode Island was the last of the colonies to ratify the Constitution, contingent upon the Bill of Rights. To somewhat quote a previous poster, "Yay, Roger Williams."

You'd have to cite your source for stating categorically that Williams did not wish God's blessing on this land as compared to the nation Israel. I can tell you factually that Williams accepted and understood the concept of the grafted branch, (Gentiles) and he understood that as such we Gentiles are coequal with the nation Israel, Abraham is our father, we are part of His Chosen People and we are numbered among those stars that God Himself showed to Abraham when He sealed His covenant him.
Romans 11:17&24 (KJV)
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

But if I have erred in some way please feel free to correct my understanding.

[The Urban Sombrero]

You'd have to cite your source for stating categorically that Williams did not wish God's blessing on this land as compared to the nation Israel. I can tell you factually that Williams accepted and understood the concept of the grafted branch, (Gentiles) and he understood that as such we Gentiles are coequal with the nation Israel, Abraham is our father, we are part of His Chosen People and we are numbered among those stars that God Himself showed to Abraham when He sealed His covenant him.
Romans 11:17&24 (KJV)
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

But if I have erred in some way please feel free to correct my understanding.

As to salvation, ingrafted branches. As to being the nation through which the lineage of salvation would come, unique. As to Roger Williams, I did not think we were discussing whether or not Roger Williams sought God's blessing upon Rhode Island, though he did seek his guidance in charterting a course toward religious liberty from the state and freedom from coercion by the church.

[TheRealThing]

As to salvation, ingrafted branches. As to being the nation through which the lineage of salvation would come, unique. As to Roger Williams, I did not think we were discussing whether or not Roger Williams sought God's blessing upon Rhode Island, though he did seek his guidance in charterting a course toward religious liberty from the state and freedom from coercion by the church.

Exactly, and THE Church that he sought freedom from, was THE Church of England. Not the true Church of God. Roger Williams grew up in England. He fled the religious tyranny there to come here to worship in freedom, not how the Church of England told him to worship. And believe me, you were told.

As a member of the Church of England, one got punished if he broke the Sabbath day by working or some such trespass against the Ten Commandments. The Church was connected to the Crown and thus any with standing and an ax to grind, could control every aspect of men's lives. It was miserable and oppressive with nowhere to escape. Then came the news of America and the colonies. Desperate times demand desperate measures. Roger Williams along with his wife and children, left England with the second wave of immigrants.

[The Urban Sombrero]

Exactly, and THE Church that he sought freedom from, was THE Church of England. Not the true Church of God. Roger Williams grew up in England. He fled the religious tyranny there to come here to worship in freedom, not how the Church of England told him to worship. And believe me, you were told.

As a member of the Church of England, one got punished if he broke the Sabbath day by working or some such trespass against the Ten Commandments. The Church was connected to the Crown and thus any with standing and an ax to grind, could control every aspect of men's lives. It was miserable and oppressive with nowhere to escape. Then came the news of America and the colonies. Desperate times demand desperate measures. Roger Williams along with his wife and children, left England with the second wave of immigrants.

Yes, and he soon found that the oppressive spirit within the Church of England was not limited to that nation's shores. And, when Williams did not toe the company line, church authority, merged with civil authority, banished him, sending him into the wilderness in a brutal winter. He knew that of which he spoke and believed.

[TheRealThing]

Yes, and he soon found that the oppressive spirit within the Church of England was not limited to that nation's shores. And, when Williams did not toe the company line, church authority, merged with civil authority, banished him, sending him into the wilderness in a brutal winter. He knew that of which he spoke and believed.

So, you're telling me that you don't know, or won't accept that the Church of England sent pastors and elders to America with orders and charters to establish Churches over here? It was not just the Church of England in chief that he shunned. But all who insisted on ties with the Anglican Church, or who tried to claim authority over their memberships as well. We, all of us, are at liberty to accept or reject Christ of our own volition, that was the soul liberty that Williams envisioned. But, just as in the case of their brethren in England, Church leaders here were loath to give up the power they had over their memberships. The more power they had, the more money they could expect to come into the Church. Thus Roger Williams separated himself from the Church as it existed in the US.

The Church exiled him true enough, but I have not seen that civil authorities had anything to do with it. But, even if they did, you pointed out yourself that this all happened 100 years before the drafting of the US Constitution. Therefore, America was more like a little England than the land of freedom we know today. The same corrupt system under which the English were beset, would have been in place here, with Ministers and bureaucrats and leaders of every kind, home grown in England and sent here to keep us in line. But, if you guys keep working on it, and insist that we need to turn the Constitution on it's head because the drafters are now seen as white supremacists, you may yet realize the satisfaction of the dreamed for “fundamental transformation.”

In any case, the thoroughly entrenched English elite had this land in a death grip when the courage and the sacrifice of the founders lifted us from their tyrannical reign to the heights of freedom realized by every American since 1776. But by all means, let's dismantle the miracle of governance established by our founders, for that which a bunch of Ivy League social theorists have dreamed up. That which the founders ripped from the grip of the English ruling class and placed into the hands of "the people," your ilk would once again throw to the wind.

"prudence indeed will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light & transient causes: and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed." ----Thomas Jefferson

[The Urban Sombrero]

So, you're telling me that you don't know, or won't accept that the Church of England sent pastors and elders to America with orders and charters to establish Churches over here? It was not just the Church of England in chief that he shunned. But all who insisted on ties with the Anglican Church, or who tried to claim authority over their memberships as well. We, all of us, are at liberty to accept or reject Christ of our own volition, that was the soul liberty that Williams envisioned. But, just as in the case of their brethren in England, Church leaders here were loath to give up the power they had over their memberships. The more power they had, the more money they could expect to come into the Church. Thus Roger Williams separated himself from the Church as it existed in the US.

The Church exiled him true enough, but I have not seen that civil authorities had anything to do with it. But, even if they did, you pointed out yourself that this all happened 100 years before the drafting of the US Constitution. Therefore, America was more like a little England than the land of freedom we know today. The same corrupt system under which the English were beset, would have been in place here, with Ministers and bureaucrats and leaders of every kind, home grown in England and sent here to keep us in line. But, if you guys keep working on it, and insist that we need to turn the Constitution on it's head because the drafters are now seen as white supremacists, you may yet realize the satisfaction of the dreamed for “fundamental transformation.”

In any case, the thoroughly entrenched English elite had this land in a death grip when the courage and the sacrifice of the founders lifted us from their tyrannical reign to the heights of freedom realized by every American since 1776. But by all means, let's dismantle the miracle of governance established by our founders, for that which a bunch of Ivy League social theorists have dreamed up. That which the founders ripped from the grip of the English ruling class and placed into the hands of "the people," your ilk would once again throw to the wind.

"prudence indeed will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light & transient causes: and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed." ----Thomas Jefferson

No, I don't question that the spirit of the Church of England also washed up on our shores. Williams wanted to keep politics and religion separate. He saw and experienced what lust for power in this world did to the church.

[The Urban Sombrero]

"light and transient causes".... If the majority gets to define what a " light and transient cause" is, that leaves any minority in an untenable position. When essential liberty and freedom of conscience is at issue, that is not "light and transient." Not given our Constitution.