[Fly Like a Duck]

Always outliers. Eastern Kentucky proves to be just that to some degree, but I pointed Bell County out in my original. EKY and the non agricultural aspect goes a long way in reversing that IMO.

Not a lot of hay, tobacco, soybean and corn fields east of 75 and south of 64.

There are always exceptions to the rule, no doubt.

[HCS]

What county schools did well BEFORE consolidation and struggled after?

[Cellking]

What county schools did well BEFORE consolidation and struggled after?

Harrodsburg had one good year after consolidating with Mercer. Harrodsburg was always a power.

[HCS]

Wasn't that an independent district?
I was asking about county schools.

[Fly Like a Duck]

What county schools did well BEFORE consolidation and struggled after?

What I mean is that you have a lot of these schools that are now "so and so county school". They didn't really gain anything from a football standpoint by consolidating with the other non football playing schools out in the county.

Take Lawrence County for example, I'd bet anything that they get very few, if any football players from outside of Louisa (or let's say past 7-8 miles from the school). Lawrence County Schools as we know it could fall apart tomorrow, going back to Louisa High School (1A I'd guess) and the level of play wouldnt be much different at all than what it is now as a "3A" (and, very good) program.

Take Rowan County. How much more competitive and overall better would they be over the years if it was just Morehead High School (guessing they'd be 1A or 2A)? I'd say they are in the same boat as Lawrence (could be completely wrong). How many boys out in the county bring anything to the table football wise except for making them a 4A school in size only?

Kentucky has so many "county high school"(s). Whereas if you look to states to our north and even south (Tennessee), many of these towns have kept their independence. Every small town in Indiana and Ohio it seems like has kept their school/program.

[WhyLie]

Well here we are again, looking for a coach. Last time we were here we had Jeff Saylor and George Thompson. We had a committee also. Now, we have A woman as super that has not even watched a football game, a principal that could careless about football, a AD that didn't even know his own job discription.
Then we have a guy that owns a pizza place that really has no business in the school building other than parental duties, he doesn't know a football from volleyball. With this we have been turned down by at least 3 coaches and now turning to a Pineville guy that has a 22-19 record, with no playoff wins.
Anyone that knows who is hiring this job knows they are clueless.

There should have been a replacement already in place to take over. This administration knows nothing about leadership and running a school.

It is now time to get behind some board members and stop this fiasco. one more board member and all this stops. It is time for them all to be dismissed.

There is so many things wrong with this job , good luck to who takes it. In 2 years we will be doing this again. Mark it down.

[RunItUpTheGut]

What I mean is that you have a lot of these schools that are now "so and so county school". They didn't really gain anything from a football standpoint by consolidating with the other non football playing schools out in the county.

Take Lawrence County for example, I'd bet anything that they get very few, if any football players from outside of Louisa (or let's say past 7-8 miles from the school). Lawrence County Schools as we know it could fall apart tomorrow, going back to Louisa High School (1A I'd guess) and the level of play wouldnt be much different at all than what it is now as a "3A" (and, very good) program.

Take Rowan County. How much more competitive and overall better would they be over the years if it was just Morehead High School (guessing they'd be 1A or 2A)? I'd say they are in the same boat as Lawrence (could be completely wrong). How many boys out in the county bring anything to the table football wise except for making them a 4A school in size only?

Kentucky has so many "county high school"(s). Whereas if you look to states to our north and even south (Tennessee), many of these towns have kept their independence. Every small town in Indiana and Ohio it seems like has kept their school/program.

There are 120 counties in KY.
The only county that doesnt have a school name for the actual county itself is Martin (Sheldon Clark, but in the Martin County school district),


Every other county in the state either has a school named after the county (EX. Whitley County, Bell County) or has a school name then Central after it (EX. Knox Central, Allen Central.) Or a direction (EX, North Laurel, South Laurel) and one outlier in Ballard County (Ballard Memorial which is part of the Ballard County school district.)

Also, there is obviously no Jefferson or Fayette County high school for obvious reasons, but those don't count.

So there is only one county in the entire state that doesn't have the actual county name in a high school and that Martin County with Sheldon Clark.


Out of all those county school names, only a handful do not play football, like Lee, Wolfe, Estill, and Hickman. I cant think of any others.

[HCS]

Estill has football

Owsley, Cumberland, Wolfe, Lee, Robertson, Menifee are some of the ones without it, I think.

[HCS]

What I mean is that you have a lot of these schools that are now "so and so county school". They didn't really gain anything from a football standpoint by consolidating with the other non football playing schools out in the county.

I can't think of any counties in Kentucky that were hurt, football wise, by consolidation.

Most of Kentucky's counties are so small (120 is way too many for a state our size) that I don't see how transportation is a big deal in most counties.
Perry County is very spread out, but Perry Central is still better than M.C. Napier was before consolidating with non-football playing Dilce Combs.
Lone Jack only played football a few years before consolidating with Bell High, which did have football. The consolidation, though, helped them tremendously, plus getting a great coach at the same time.

[Fly Like a Duck]

Fair points.


Why would you say that our best programs since the beginning of time up through today, outside of privates (which, in terms of the kids they draw, are very similar to those of independent schools + they are located in towns/cities) are largely independent?

Mayfield, Highlands, Beechwood, Danville, Owensboro, Corbin, Russellville, Ashland, Tilghman, etc the list goes on and on.

Other than the privates, the vast majority of the programs in discussion from 50+ years ago up until today are Independent.

Transportation is real in a lot of these place. It's a true hurdle.

The fact that football simply doesn't matter to many people in the rural communities within these counties is also real. Never has and quite frankly, never will (especially if they are largely agricultural, I can't say that enough).

If it can be a fabric and life in some of these places like Highlands for years (and, the above schools), there is no reason it can't be said that it's the exact polar opposite of that in some of these rural communities within county x.

Large agricultural areas, scattered/rural population= travel hardships are very real hurdles for many of these places.

I'll even go a step further, but if you have those two factors going against you + lack of (or no) minority population + soccer?

If you are batting 1.000 in all of those, good luck to you.

[Fly Like a Duck]

Back to topic, but you bring up Lone Jack. Who benefitted most from that, Bell or Lone Jack?

[Fly Like a Duck]

Estill has football

Owsley, Cumberland, Wolfe, Lee, Robertson, Menifee are some of the ones without it, I think.

Some in WKY that don't.

Carlisle, Hickman, Lyon, Livingston.

There is an independent school in WKY that doesn't, either and that's Dawson Springs. Burgin IND in CKY doesn't play. Nor does Augusta IND up in NKY.

Robertson County in NKY doesn't play football either.

[Fly Like a Duck]

Comparing IND vs County that are all within the same county from WKY through CKY.

Fulton City>Fulton County (hard to really compare, but for arguments sake)

Mayfield>Graves
Murray>Calloway
Tilghman>McCracken
Russellville>Logan
Owensboro>Daviess (Daviess+Apollo)
Bowling Green>Warren County
Glasgow>Barren County
Caverna=Hart (see Fulton)
Bardstown>Nelson (& Thomas Nelson)
Campbellsville>Taylor

Boyle and Danville?

All-Time? Danville
Last 30 years collectively? Danville
Last 15? Boyle

Paris and Bourbon? Up until the last few years and a few years there in the late 90s to early 2000's? Paris.


NKY? Not even up for discussion. Birds and Beechies.


SEKY and EKY?

Corbin>whichever of the three counties the city sits in that you want to include them, or all three.

Somerset>Pulaski's (maybe not the last couple years, but the Pulaski schools have to do it a lot more to call them THE All-Time football school of that count)

Hazard>Perry

Bell>Middleboro and Pineville.

Letcher>Jenkins

Harlan County>Harlan IND

Johnson>Paintsville

Belfry>Pikeville (but, Pikeville is still the tops over the other 3 county schools)

Ashland>Boyd
Russell>Boyd (or is it Greenup or both)
Raceland>Greenup
Fairview>Boyd

Outside of a few, the places where there is both an Independent school and a county school, the INDY is better.

So, my whole question? Who's to say that if the Independent playing football school in so and so county hadn't stayed Independent, that football at that now defunct school wouldn't be like those mentioned above? I guess we will never know, but the facts above prove otherwise.

[Fly Like a Duck]

^^the facts above prove that they would be successful.

[Fly Like a Duck]

What county schools did well BEFORE consolidation and struggled after?

I don't know that any of them were "county" schools per say. Before consolidation, they were their own Independent school districts.

Examples:

Monroe County was made up of football playing Tompkinsville (who was dang good, and Monroe still plays at their old stadium) and Gamaliel HS that didn't play football.

Lincoln County was made up of football playing Stanford (who was very solid all by their self much like Tompkinsville) and the non football playing schools of Crab Orchard, Waynesburg, Kings.
Mountain, McKinney and Hustonville.

Caldwell County was made up of football playing Princeton Butler (very good, winning WKC Championships in the 50's) and non football playing Fredonia.

I've already mentioned Lawrence County and how Louisa (football playing) merged with Non Football playing Blaine and I think one other non football playing (name slips me).

There are others that fall into the above categories, and then you have places like Graves County where none of the community schools had football (Mayfield was and is their own independent school district) until they all merged (Fancy Farm, Cuba, etc) until they consolidated to make Graves County. Logan County was/is the same exact way.

[HCS]

I don't know that any of them were "county" schools per say. Before consolidation, they were their own Independent school districts.

Examples:

Monroe County was made up of football playing Tompkinsville (who was dang good, and Monroe still plays at their old stadium) and Gamaliel HS that didn't play football.

Lincoln County was made up of football playing Stanford (who was very solid all by their self much like Tompkinsville) and the non football playing schools of Crab Orchard, Waynesburg, Kings.
Mountain, McKinney and Hustonville.

Caldwell County was made up of football playing Princeton Butler (very good, winning WKC Championships in the 50's) and non football playing Fredonia.

I've already mentioned Lawrence County and how Louisa (football playing) merged with Non Football playing Blaine and I think one other non football playing (name slips me).

There are others that fall into the above categories, and then you have places like Graves County where none of the community schools had football (Mayfield was and is their own independent school district) until they all merged (Fancy Farm, Cuba, etc) until they consolidated to make Graves County. Logan County was/is the same exact way.

I don't think they were "independent" districts. Most, I believe, were county schools.
I remember when Graves merged and they were all county high schools. I think the same with Monroe. I'm guessing Caldwell and Lawrence were the same.
So, my point was not many, if any, county teams are worse off than before. Most weren't big enough to even have football.

[HCS]

Back to topic, but you bring up Lone Jack. Who benefitted most from that, Bell or Lone Jack?

They were both terrible until consolidation.
They became one and became better overnight.

[HCS]

Back to topic, but you bring up Lone Jack. Who benefitted most from that, Bell or Lone Jack?

Comparing IND vs County that are all within the same county from WKY through CKY.

Fulton City>Fulton County (hard to really compare, but for arguments sake)

Mayfield>Graves
Murray>Calloway
Tilghman>McCracken
Russellville>Logan
Owensboro>Daviess (Daviess+Apollo)
Bowling Green>Warren County
Glasgow>Barren County
Caverna=Hart (see Fulton)
Bardstown>Nelson (& Thomas Nelson)
Campbellsville>Taylor

Boyle and Danville?

All-Time? Danville
Last 30 years collectively? Danville
Last 15? Boyle

Paris and Bourbon? Up until the last few years and a few years there in the late 90s to early 2000's? Paris.


NKY? Not even up for discussion. Birds and Beechies.

I don't know how you could call either Fulton County or Fulton City a winner. They both need consolidation because both are bad. I know know Fulton County did at least make a run in the basketball All A tourney.
Tilghman dominated because McCracken was divided into small rural schools. They have made up ground after consolidation.
Graves was also bad because it was divided too much - again a place where consolidation was needed.

[HCS]

The main point that I disagreed with is that "county" schools were hurt by consolidation, and I don't know if there is one "county" school in the entire state that can be identified as having been hurt by a merger.

Most of the small schools that closed were "county" schools, not "independent" school districts, and very few were successful and most didn't even offer football, so they at least have a chance to play now.

[Fly Like a Duck]

I don't know how you could call either Fulton County or Fulton City a winner. They both need consolidation because both are bad. I know know Fulton County did at least make a run in the basketball All A tourney.
Tilghman dominated because McCracken was divided into small rural schools. They have made up ground after consolidation.
Graves was also bad because it was divided too much - again a place where consolidation was needed.

You can't with with the Fulton's...why I said it was really hard to even compare (or worthless to do so, whichever).

Lone Oak wasn't that small. They were a 4A school and rolling at the time of merger with Heath and Redland (who were both 2A in their own right). Since consolidation of McCracken, they have only beaten Paducah once...which, is one better than any of the other three ever did (Tilghman never lost to a McCracken school pre merger).

Consolidation with OTHER football playing schools I don't think hurts (may not make things better all the time, but I don't think it hurts). What I am trying to say that hurts is when Football playing school in the county merged with the other NON fooball playing school (s) in the county. That's when, IMO, nothing is gained and in most cases hurts...because here you are a bigger school in size, but the population/area from which you draw your football players is that of a much smaller class school (likely the town/area that only had football as is years ago).

[Fly Like a Duck]

People like to bash on Mercer County since their merger, but things are better there.

Harrodsburg was falling and falling fast. Their enrollment was dropping. Football their last 2-3 was nothing like what it used to be. Heck, their entire athletic program was getting absolutely drummed across the board.

The year before the merger, in 2005, Marty Jaggers first year, Mercer went 10-2 and won their first playoff game in almost 20 years and tied for the best record in school history.

Everybody knows about 2006. Good for them. Others have had the same gifts over the years (Collins, Harlan County, South Warren, etc) and weren't as lucky to get it done.

But, most also forget that in 2008 (Jaggers last year), that Mercer was a 5A District Champ and also won another playoff game.

Paul Rains won another playoff game 2-3 years later and then Mercer beat Boyle County in 2013 under Chris Pardue and went onto the region finals. Then this year, they won ANOTHER district championship (4A) and another playoff game (I think you will see 3 more district championships and quite possibly, a region championship or two..or three and maybe more the next few years under Buchanan).

On the Mercer/Boyle topic...I don't know that Mercer or Harrodsburg ever beat Boyle very much in the 10-20 years before the merger, but since, I think they are .500 w Boyle (I know Mercer has three wins over Boyle since 2006 and some of those years they didn't play).

People want to compare the new Mercer with the OLD Harrodsburg, and they are right...that comparison isn't close, but Harrodsburg hadnt been that Harrodsburg in 10 or so years (and, it wasn't getting any better).

But, back to my point...those were TWO FOOTBALL PLAYING schools that joined hands. Now, had Mercer or Harrodsburg merged with Burgin (non football playing Independent in Mercer County ) things would have probably gotten worse for both BECAUSE here they get bigger in class, but gain nothing in terms of a football playing school/community.

[RunItUpTheGut]

Great post Fly.

Very enjoyable to read.

I think one should take into consideration the ideal of current day consolidations and old consolidations.
Harlan County obviously got better by conjoining 3 football playing schools, but take Whitley for example who consolidated all of its county schools in 63. None of them played football. It didn't hurt nor help. It was a new beginning. That's rarely the case today.

[Fly Like a Duck]

Monticello (non football ) obviously just merged with Wayne County and how that plays out is TBD. Right now, it doesn't look like it's bothering Wayne one bit.

Which, and this goes back to that whole transportation effect I was talking about earlier that is a very real issue in many of these counties, but Monticello is THE town of Wayne County. Hell, it's where Wayne County HS has always been located.

The down side? A non football playing school (very small one at that, but still) merged with a football playing school, BUT at least they (Wayne) aren't also taking on a non football playing school that's 10+ miles from the school (which would he the case if Burgin had merged with Mercer or Harrodsburg).

The travel, or lack of, factor at least plays into their hands while adding more boys...

Mom and Dad are probably more apt to let Johnny try his hand at football (let's say Johnny has some decent ability) being as close or closer to home than his old school than they'd be if they lived 10+ miles from the new school.....

[Fly Like a Duck]

Great post Fly.

Very enjoyable to read.

I think one should take into consideration the ideal of current day consolidations and old consolidations.
Harlan County obviously got better by conjoining 3 football playing schools, but take Whitley for example who consolidated all of its county schools in 63. None of them played football. It didn't hurt nor help. It was a new beginning. That's rarely the case today.

Useless knowledge my man, useless knowledge. It's just fun for HS sports geeks like ourselves. Haha (proud to be in that club)

Yep. You said it. Great examples.

Graves was probably the last one to immulate a Whitley County and others like them back in the day. I think Graves merged as one in 85? Somewhere around there. Logan County, like Whitley and Graves, was in the 80's, too. Early to mid...

I'd say those two (Graves and Logan) were probably two of the last consolidations where none of the schools that came together played football.

The only others I can think of that might have either come around at the same time or later (those that didn't have a football playing school before consolidation) is Trimble County. Which, unfortunately for them, they've never really gotten off the ground except for a couple years when Johnny Poynter was there.

Monroe became one in the late 80's (I want to say 88 or 89), but like I'd mentioned before, Tompkinsville HS was already playing football and a dang good program at that. Gamaliel might habe played football come to think of it...I'll have to ask somebody who would know for sure.

[pjdoug]

Great post Fly.

Very enjoyable to read.

I think one should take into consideration the ideal of current day consolidations and old consolidations.
Harlan County obviously got better by conjoining 3 football playing schools, but take Whitley for example who consolidated all of its county schools in 63. None of them played football. It didn't hurt nor help. It was a new beginning. That's rarely the case today.

Whitley needs to add another school or two :biggrin:

[pjdoug]

Useless knowledge my man, useless knowledge. It's just fun for HS sports geeks like ourselves. Haha (proud to be in that club)

Yep. You said it. Great examples.

Graves was probably the last one to immulate a Whitley County and others like them back in the day. I think Graves merged as one in 85? Somewhere around there. Logan County, like Whitley and Graves, was in the 80's, too. Early to mid...

I'd say those two (Graves and Logan) were probably two of the last consolidations where none of the schools that came together played football.

The only others I can think of that might have either come around at the same time or later (those that didn't have a football playing school before consolidation) is Trimble County. Which, unfortunately for them, they've never really gotten off the ground except for a couple years when Johnny Poynter was there.

Monroe became one in the late 80's (I want to say 88 or 89), but like I'd mentioned before, Tompkinsville HS was already playing football and a dang good program at that. Gamaliel might habe played football come to think of it...I'll have to ask somebody who would know for sure.

I wonder how many games of football have been played at Bugtussle in Monroe County? I've been to that county a few times,but honestly don't know if I even thought about football while I was there,but I was thinking about pigskin

[Granny Bear]

pj.....you wanting to absorb the Whitley County side of Corbin??

[Bobcat4years]

Williamsburg consolidate with Whitley Co would make a great school district..
Pineville consolidate with Bell Co. Would make a better school district..
Could this happen in next 10 years?

[Fly Like a Duck]

Would they be better than they are as separates now, though? Whitley would benefit more if any. I don't know that Williamsburg would benefit. 1A and 1A East at that is one of the most wide open semis in the state (Williamsburg is proof if that).

[E's Army]

Whitley doesn't want to get much bigger. They could bump
Up to 6A. It is a long way to Lexington for district games.