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11-13-2015, 06:39 PM
I have heard over the past few years how people have weighed in about certain teams prowess because they won or went to the middle school state championships. I have never really bought into that much. Tonight will be a good demonstration of how that does not equate to much in high school. Here is what to watch for. 3 years ago the 8th grade state championship was won by Butler County, I think 46-8, over Raceland. I would not be surprised if tonight, both the Butler County Bears and the Raceland Rams get bumped in the second round.
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11-13-2015, 07:17 PM
Pulaski County (Northern) won a MS championship and won the 5A state last year and has a great opportunity to win it again this year. ( I hope PC fans didn't read that, I have a reputation to uphold)
When you look at Belfry, Wayne Co., Johnson Central, Bowling Green, just to name a few, it seems like they are always there in the final 4 of the MS championships and are also in the hunt for HS state championships. So while winning the MS state doesn't guarantee a HS state championship those teams are usually in the conversation.
When you look at Belfry, Wayne Co., Johnson Central, Bowling Green, just to name a few, it seems like they are always there in the final 4 of the MS championships and are also in the hunt for HS state championships. So while winning the MS state doesn't guarantee a HS state championship those teams are usually in the conversation.
11-13-2015, 07:21 PM
mysonis55 Wrote:I have heard over the past few years how people have weighed in about certain teams prowess because they won or went to the middle school state championships. I have never really bought into that much. Tonight will be a good demonstration of how that does not equate to much in high school. Here is what to watch for. 3 years ago the 8th grade state championship was won by Butler County, I think 46-8, over Raceland. I would not be surprised if tonight, both the Butler County Bears and the Raceland Rams get bumped in the second round.
Great theory !!! What division is Butler county in and which one is Raceland in , paintsvilles current seniors went to the state championship in 8th . So what's your point
11-13-2015, 07:35 PM
First, they both played in the smallest class in middle school. Raceland plays in 1a for high school. Butler County is in 2a.
Second, my point is this. For several years we heard how the Beechwood bunch of 2011 was the favorites due to the winning the small school 8th grade state championship. They never got one in high school. The Williamsburg faithful then proclaimed that they were going to be the team a year or so ago due to all the kids they had that played for the 8th grade state title. They never won one in high school. Then this year of course you have the 2 8th grade state championship teams poised to lose in the second round. It just goes to show that this is not a true indicator of things to come when they get into high school.
My thoughts are the physical changes in the bodies of the boys. Some hit the maturity in middle school and are able to push the others around. Then the smaller ones hit their maturity in high school and catch up. That and of course some has to do with coaching. Kind of like here we have a head coach in middle school that never played a down of football. Then they go into the great hands of one of the winningest coaches in the state in high school.
Second, my point is this. For several years we heard how the Beechwood bunch of 2011 was the favorites due to the winning the small school 8th grade state championship. They never got one in high school. The Williamsburg faithful then proclaimed that they were going to be the team a year or so ago due to all the kids they had that played for the 8th grade state title. They never won one in high school. Then this year of course you have the 2 8th grade state championship teams poised to lose in the second round. It just goes to show that this is not a true indicator of things to come when they get into high school.
My thoughts are the physical changes in the bodies of the boys. Some hit the maturity in middle school and are able to push the others around. Then the smaller ones hit their maturity in high school and catch up. That and of course some has to do with coaching. Kind of like here we have a head coach in middle school that never played a down of football. Then they go into the great hands of one of the winningest coaches in the state in high school.
11-13-2015, 07:41 PM
I think the point most people try to make when they use that argument, is that consistently strong middle school programs at least give you (in theory) a stronger or more experienced group to work with. If you will notice, most of those teams you have mentioned, while maybe not winning championships, have been decent or very good teams that have generated excitement for their programs at the HS level. Feeder program strength, as you have even pointed out in other posts from time to time, are what allows HS coaches to build depth without dramatic fall off from your ones to your twos, and basically provide stronger building blocks to bring a program up. Pikeville fell on hard times for a while there, and one of the most commonly credited things with their resurgence over the past few years, has been the increased focus on the feeder programs. So I think maybe those who use that argument are maybe just not getting what point they mean across.
11-13-2015, 07:41 PM
Williamsburg made it to back to back state title appearances and made the trip to rupp in basketball so they had some pretty dang good success.
11-13-2015, 08:03 PM
mysonis55 Wrote:First, they both played in the smallest class in middle school. Raceland plays in 1a for high school. Butler County is in 2a.It takes more than one good class to win a state championship
Second, my point is this. For several years we heard how the Beechwood bunch of 2011 was the favorites due to the winning the small school 8th grade state championship. They never got one in high school. The Williamsburg faithful then proclaimed that they were going to be the team a year or so ago due to all the kids they had that played for the 8th grade state title. They never won one in high school. Then this year of course you have the 2 8th grade state championship teams poised to lose in the second round. It just goes to show that this is not a true indicator of things to come when they get into high school.
My thoughts are the physical changes in the bodies of the boys. Some hit the maturity in middle school and are able to push the others around. Then the smaller ones hit their maturity in high school and catch up. That and of course some has to do with coaching. Kind of like here we have a head coach in middle school that never played a down of football. Then they go into the great hands of one of the winningest coaches in the state in high school.
11-13-2015, 08:08 PM
Bowling Green class of 2013 were an unstoppable force in middle school. In the 8th grade they absolutely clobbered every team they played. They went on in the 12th grade to win state.
Of course a lot can happen in the 4 years between 8th and 12th grades. Kids grow a lot, or some dont. Some move away, some quit playing.
In general though I believe a team that excels in middle school will likely do well in high school.
Of course a lot can happen in the 4 years between 8th and 12th grades. Kids grow a lot, or some dont. Some move away, some quit playing.
In general though I believe a team that excels in middle school will likely do well in high school.
11-13-2015, 08:08 PM
anotherfootballnut Wrote:It takes more than one good class to win a state championship
Wow, awesome info !:flush:
11-13-2015, 08:29 PM
mysonis55 Wrote:I have heard over the past few years how people have weighed in about certain teams prowess because they won or went to the middle school state championships. I have never really bought into that much. Tonight will be a good demonstration of how that does not equate to much in high school. Here is what to watch for. 3 years ago the 8th grade state championship was won by Butler County, I think 46-8, over Raceland. I would not be surprised if tonight, both the Butler County Bears and the Raceland Rams get bumped in the second round.
That Division was down some that year. Previous years winners made a big run in High School. And the teams you're speaking of are only juniors right now. So you're basing your hypothesis over a very small sample. Let me help you out. If you want to look at the Junior and Senior classes that excelled in the Middle School State Tournament they are listed below.
Pulaski County, Whitley County, CAL, Paintsville, Somerset, Southwestern, Bowling Green, Belfry, Paducah, Johnson Central, Ryle, and several Louisville schools. Things change from Middle School to High School, but you can't deny a direct correlation from the Middle School State tournament to the High School State tournament. Not saying it translates to championships (although in many cases it has), but there is a correlation.
11-13-2015, 08:47 PM
It doesn't really correlate at all. For one the coaching is not the same. I could give more examples. The class of 2013 at Graves County was a holy terror in middle school. They crushed BG even. They didn't translate. There are many things that change way too much for that to be a gauge. First, there is the changes in the kids bodies. Then there is the possibilities of moving. Then there is the difference in coaching staffs. Then there is the fact that a lot of teams don't enter into the middle school tournament. Also there is as was just pointed out, in high school you have the other 3 classes to draw from.
11-13-2015, 08:48 PM
(This post was last modified: 11-13-2015, 08:51 PM by proud44pirate.)
Next season Belfry will have all four class that have won a middle school championship. Not bad considering they have only played in 4. The high school team has won back to back and favored this year. 3 middle school championship teams are there now and going for 3 high school this year, coincidence I think not. Each team has kept a level head and not thought about leaving or breaking it up like what happens to most teams that win a state in middle school. Unbelievable coaching staff makes the kids keep a level head. In closing I will say if Belfry had been playing in all the middle school division 2 championships they would've won them all every year.
11-13-2015, 09:04 PM
As several have said, it doesn't guarantee success in high school but it certainly doesn't hurt and it probably means you will have a good chance to win if players don't leave or the coaches don't do a bad job.
Not too many state champions, I would imagine, were terrible in the 8th grade.
I always think it's kind of funny when people argue it means nothing. If you don't have talent the odds of putting together a good team in high school aren't very good.
Not too many state champions, I would imagine, were terrible in the 8th grade.
I always think it's kind of funny when people argue it means nothing. If you don't have talent the odds of putting together a good team in high school aren't very good.
11-13-2015, 09:18 PM
mysonis55 Wrote:First, they both played in the smallest class in middle school. Raceland plays in 1a for high school. Butler County is in 2a.
Second, my point is this. For several years we heard how the Beechwood bunch of 2011 was the favorites due to the winning the small school 8th grade state championship. They never got one in high school. The Williamsburg faithful then proclaimed that they were going to be the team a year or so ago due to all the kids they had that played for the 8th grade state title. They never won one in high school. Then this year of course you have the 2 8th grade state championship teams poised to lose in the second round. It just goes to show that this is not a true indicator of things to come when they get into high school.
My thoughts are the physical changes in the bodies of the boys. Some hit the maturity in middle school and are able to push the others around. Then the smaller ones hit their maturity in high school and catch up. That and of course some has to do with coaching. Kind of like here we have a head coach in middle school that never played a down of football. Then they go into the great hands of one of the winningest coaches in the state in high school.
Taking a jab at 1A Williamsburg :pondering: Going by the number Mayfield has had 2A number for 4yrs. I think Williamsburg would have won if they was playing a 1A school in 2013/2014 :why:
11-13-2015, 09:23 PM
far More times than not middle school success leads to high school success.
11-13-2015, 09:25 PM
mysonis55 Wrote:It doesn't really correlate at all. For one the coaching is not the same. I could give more examples. The class of 2013 at Graves County was a holy terror in middle school. They crushed BG even. They didn't translate. There are many things that change way too much for that to be a gauge. First, there is the changes in the kids bodies. Then there is the possibilities of moving. Then there is the difference in coaching staffs. Then there is the fact that a lot of teams don't enter into the middle school tournament. Also there is as was just pointed out, in high school you have the other 3 classes to draw from.Didn't graves county beat BG out of the playoffs last year?
11-13-2015, 09:32 PM
mysonis55 Wrote:It doesn't really correlate at all. For one the coaching is not the same. I could give more examples. The class of 2013 at Graves County was a holy terror in middle school. They crushed BG even. They didn't translate. There are many things that change way too much for that to be a gauge. First, there is the changes in the kids bodies. Then there is the possibilities of moving. Then there is the difference in coaching staffs. Then there is the fact that a lot of teams don't enter into the middle school tournament. Also there is as was just pointed out, in high school you have the other 3 classes to draw from.I really don't get your argument, already been several posters on here that have given facts that it has led to their team winning a state Championship even though it takes some luck to win either one (Middle school or High school) The bottom line is even if they don't win it all- and only 6 can each year -their programs are usually in the running.
11-13-2015, 10:00 PM
There are many teams whose success contradicts what this topic states. However, it just boils down to opinions either way really. Some people just like to argue and get others riled up. Bowling Green, South Warren, Paintsville, Pulaski, Johnson Central, Belfry, etc. just show's that success in middle school can at least give you a good chance in high school. I do agree with the statements that say different things can factor into that success such as kids staying together, injuries, etc.
nicker: Bulter
11-13-2015, 11:30 PM
No such thing as a unified Middle School playoff that involves all school districts. Mute point.
11-14-2015, 12:10 AM
Oops. Thx
11-19-2015, 05:19 AM
mysonis55 Wrote:Great question. Yes GC did beat BG last year. But, the class of 2013 was gone. This wasn't as successful of a class.
The Bowling Green class of 2013 did not lose a game in Middle school and was barely even scored on. You need to get facts straight.
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