[baseball1974]

I've seen several teams play this year from all different regions and one thing I've noticed is overall coaches seem to be much more mild mannered than in years past. However, there are still your select few that have an intimidating presence over umpires, and most often than not the umpires give into the intimidation. Why? It seems we have a biased culture in high school sports where relationships off the field play a major factor in the calls on the field. If a coach has a reputation for calling assigning secretaries on umpires, or if a coach is friendly with members of a higher influence, then like in every situation, "go along to get along." If an umpire wants a future and wants big games in the post season, those wheels have to be greased. Take the PCC/LC incident for example. Umpires are becoming reactive rather than proactive in order to maintain relationships for their own careers, and I get it. However, until the "good ol' boy" way of doing things is changed, it will only get worse.

[KHSAA Blue]

I've seen several teams play this year from all different regions and one thing I've noticed is overall coaches seem to be much more mild mannered than in years past. However, there are still your select few that have an intimidating presence over umpires, and most often than not the umpires give into the intimidation. Why? It seems we have a biased culture in high school sports where relationships off the field play a major factor in the calls on the field. If a coach has a reputation for calling assigning secretaries on umpires, or if a coach is friendly with members of a higher influence, then like in every situation, "go along to get along." If an umpire wants a future and wants big games in the post season, those wheels have to be greased. Take the PCC/LC incident for example. Umpires are becoming reactive rather than proactive in order to maintain relationships for their own careers, and I get it. However, until the "good ol' boy" way of doing things is changed, it will only get worse.

:Thumbs:

[RunItUpTheGut]

Theres only one way I look at this. If I were an umpire, no coach would ever intimidate me. Its your calls to make and no matter how mad they get, you have the final say. If a coach started talking to me during games, the strike zone would get much larger on them.

After all. Whats a coach going to do? Are they going to beat you up? Call you names? See you in the parking lot?

NO. They would lose there job if they did anything physical and then you could also sue them. Theres no way they can be anything other than talk. I always laugh when umps or any refs are scared of coaches.

[Dawg Family]

Number one rule as an Ump or Ref is never give any
acknowledgement to the coach or any of the fans. Let them say what there going to say to ya and let it go. The first time you even give them eye contact for saying something it's like throwing gas on a fire. Just go out and do your job to the best of your ability and call them like you see it. Not that I have any experience or anything this is just my opinion. I also think there should be stricture requirements to be a sports official in high school but along with that they should be paid better then you'll get top quality officials.

[baseball1974]

Theres only one way I look at this. If I were an umpire, no coach would ever intimidate me. Its your calls to make and no matter how mad they get, you have the final say. If a coach started talking to me during games, the strike zone would get much larger on them.

After all. Whats a coach going to do? Are they going to beat you up? Call you names? See you in the parking lot?

NO. They would lose there job if they did anything physical and then you could also sue them. Theres no way they can be anything other than talk. I always laugh when umps or any refs are scared of coaches.

Number one rule as an Ump or Ref is never give any
acknowledgement to the coach or any of the fans. Let them say what there going to say to ya and let it go. The first time you even give them eye contact for saying something it's like throwing gas on a fire. Just go out and do your job to the best of your ability and call them like you see it. Not that I have any experience or anything this is just my opinion. I also think there should be stricture requirements to be a sports official in high school but along with that they should be paid better then you'll get top quality officials.

I agree with what you're saying but I think it's missing the point. Everyone just assumes there are no other reasons for some calls and some that are not called. However, if an umpire knows going into a game that one of those coaches will call and report them over anything that happens, then I think that plays a role if they have any goal of umpiring in big games. The assigning secretary isn't going to put officials in big games when coaches are constantly calling on them. Therefor, in order to maintain their own careers, they will go along to get along and it has become an epidemic in high school sports, especially in small towns where everyone knows each other. If the assigning secretary and the head coach of a team go to church together then whomever that coach wants umpiring his games, he'll get them. Umpires know this all too well, and will do things uncharacteristically in order to make sure they can ump big games. It's insane to me and there needs to be a better system of rating umpires, evaluating their work and even their promotions as well.

[Hitters_Count]

If a coach started talking to me during games, the strike zone would get much larger on them.

That is the worst reply I have seen! So because a coach gets on you for whatever reason, you would then penalize the kids? I hope you aren't or never become someone who officiates ball at any level with that kind of attitude. You are hired to do the best job and be fair and consistent to both teams competing, period. Unless a coach berates you or calls you vulgar names, your job is to defuse the coach and continue doing your job. If someone yelling at you bothers you, then you don't need to be an official. We have way too many of those in the 13th region now. I have seen an umpire ring a kid up on 3 pitches that were not even in the area code of the strike zone because the coach was yelling at the ump to be consistent behind the plate. But nothing is ever done because we don't want to hurt anyones feelings or because we don't have enough umps. Do your job and if the coach, player or fans get out of hand, then toss them. A guality ump doesn't allow things like that to escalate like that.

[Bob Seger]

We have one of these in the 15th. Batter has a count on him with 3 balls. Pitcher's next pitch is an obvious Ball 4...Batter starts towards 1st before the umpire calls Ball 4..Umpire yells STRIKE.. Tells the batter "You wait till "I" call it".

Batter then strikes out.

You tell me what if fair about that. Say the score is tied at the time.That obvious runner at 1st could have been the go ahead run if the next batter hits a gapper.

Umpires with that kind of an ego have no business being out there either.

[baseball1974]

That is the worst reply I have seen! So because a coach gets on you for whatever reason, you would then penalize the kids? I hope you aren't or never become someone who officiates ball at any level with that kind of attitude. You are hired to do the best job and be fair and consistent to both teams competing, period. Unless a coach berates you or calls you vulgar names, your job is to defuse the coach and continue doing your job. If someone yelling at you bothers you, then you don't need to be an official. We have way too many of those in the 13th region now. I have seen an umpire ring a kid up on 3 pitches that were not even in the area code of the strike zone because the coach was yelling at the ump to be consistent behind the plate. But nothing is ever done because we don't want to hurt anyones feelings or because we don't have enough umps. Do your job and if the coach, player or fans get out of hand, then toss them. A guality ump doesn't allow things like that to escalate like that.

I've been fortunate this year to be able to watch different regions play and there is definetely a difference between umpires throughout the state. There doesn't seem to be a consistency regarding how things are done. Umpires are not paid enough, but at the same time, the qualifications are not what they should be either. More and more officials are on the field that have never played the game. Even though I think it's possible for there to be a good official that has never played, it's impossible for them to understand situations. For example, I seen a 7th region team against an 8th region team with 8th region officials a couple of weeks ago. The bases were loaded with two outs, a pitching change was made, and a freshman pitcher was brought into a one-run game. It got to a full count, and the pitcher threw a 3-2 breaking ball that completely fooled the hitter and when it broke the catcher framed the pitch right under the letters. The umpire calls ball four, and the next batter hits a first pitch dribbler up the middle for a walk-off hit. The pitch was probably a borderline strike that could hve been called either way in a normal situation. However, for the umpire not to recognize the situation and ring that kid up on a strikeout blew my mind. It cost them the game and probably that kids confidence as well.

If we expect the officiating to get better then a couple things have to happen. The khsaa HAS to commit to using resources and to develop these umpires at a higher level. The amount of training needs to be more in-depth. Above everything, there needs to be an independent group that evaluates these guys from video that should be mandatory at every game. They can also try making it appealing to former players. As of right now, I don't know of any recruitment-type system in place to get better officials. They have done a descent job at keeping coaches from attacking the officials by putting in sanctions, but not enough attention is payed to the overall system in place. It also wouldn't hurt if they were given bonuses for the games in-which they excel. If there is no incentive to a do better then nothing will change. Just having the post season as an incentive doesn't work because most of that is a political mess in itself.

[baseball1974]

We have one of these in the 15th. Batter has a count on him with 3 balls. Pitcher's next pitch is an obvious Ball 4...Batter starts towards 1st before the umpire calls Ball 4..Umpire yells STRIKE.. Tells the batter "You wait till "I" call it".

Batter then strikes out.

You tell me what if fair about that. Say the score is tied at the time.That obvious runner at 1st could have been the go ahead run if the next batter hits a gapper.

Umpires with that kind of an ego have no business being out there either.

There are definetely some that insist on being seen. It's sickening to watch. That is one situation where I think a coach is justified in getting tossed if he's taking up for his player.

[killerb]

Haven't seen many baseball games lots of softball and the umpires in both have done an heck of a job .Hats off to the 14th Region!

[Baseballfan3]

I've been fortunate this year to be able to watch different regions play and there is definetely a difference between umpires throughout the state. There doesn't seem to be a consistency regarding how things are done. Umpires are not paid enough, but at the same time, the qualifications are not what they should be either. More and more officials are on the field that have never played the game. Even though I think it's possible for there to be a good official that has never played, it's impossible for them to understand situations. For example, I seen a 7th region team against an 8th region team with 8th region officials a couple of weeks ago. The bases were loaded with two outs, a pitching change was made, and a freshman pitcher was brought into a one-run game. It got to a full count, and the pitcher threw a 3-2 breaking ball that completely fooled the hitter and when it broke the catcher framed the pitch right under the letters. The umpire calls ball four, and the next batter hits a first pitch dribbler up the middle for a walk-off hit. The pitch was probably a borderline strike that could hve been called either way in a normal situation. However, for the umpire not to recognize the situation and ring that kid up on a strikeout blew my mind. It cost them the game and probably that kids confidence as well.

If we expect the officiating to get better then a couple things have to happen. The khsaa HAS to commit to using resources and to develop these umpires at a higher level. The amount of training needs to be more in-depth. Above everything, there needs to be an independent group that evaluates these guys from video that should be mandatory at every game. They can also try making it appealing to former players. As of right now, I don't know of any recruitment-type system in place to get better officials. They have done a descent job at keeping coaches from attacking the officials by putting in sanctions, but not enough attention is payed to the overall system in place. It also wouldn't hurt if they were given bonuses for the games in-which they excel. If there is no incentive to a do better then nothing will change. Just having the post season as an incentive doesn't work because most of that is a political mess in itself.

So, you are saying the kid threw a ball, but the situation says the umpire should have called it a strike just because that is what the situation calls for? Really? is the strike zone not top out at the mid point of the batter's torso when it crosses the plate? If the catcher catches a breaking pitch just below the letters(which is above the mid point of your torso) a good 12-24 inches behind the plate, there is no possible way for that pitch to have caught the strike zone in any way shape or form.

[baseball1974]

So, you are saying the kid threw a ball, but the situation says the umpire should have called it a strike just because that is what the situation calls for? Really? is the strike zone not top out at the mid point of the batter's torso when it crosses the plate? If the catcher catches a breaking pitch just below the letters(which is above the mid point of your torso) a good 12-24 inches behind the plate, there is no possible way for that pitch to have caught the strike zone in any way shape or form.

No I'm saying if it's a borderline pitch, then absolutely the situation plays a role in the call, and always has with good umpires that know the game.

[LCHSbulldogsalum]

We have one of these in the 15th. Batter has a count on him with 3 balls. Pitcher's next pitch is an obvious Ball 4...Batter starts towards 1st before the umpire calls Ball 4..Umpire yells STRIKE.. Tells the batter "You wait till "I" call it".

Batter then strikes out.

You tell me what if fair about that. Say the score is tied at the time.That obvious runner at 1st could have been the go ahead run if the next batter hits a gapper.

Umpires with that kind of an ego have no business being out there either.

Last night LC had a couple of men on and hit a slow roller to 2B. The LC hitter beat it out, as obvious as I've ever seen. The base ump calls LC "out". The LC base coach put his hands out as if to say "are you kidding". The ump calls time and SPRINTS over to him and scolds him with his finger pointed in his face. What was a 2 run inning could have been a 4-5 run inning as that was the 1st out of the inning and LC got a double and another single to score a few runs.

He then proceeds to call a Hazard runner safe on a steal attempt with the LC 2B waiting on the runner with the tag. Again, warns the LC coaches for protesting the call. It appeared to me this guy was looking to toss anyone on the LC staff. The Hazard coaches were protesting calls all night, and got NO warnings.

I think people just want the umps to get the call right, or at least most of the time. But when an ump begins to miss several calls in a single game, has an inconsistent strike zone, or an attitude, then they deserve criticism in my opinion.

[KHSAA Blue]

I agree with what you're saying but I think it's missing the point. Everyone just assumes there are no other reasons for some calls and some that are not called. However, if an umpire knows going into a game that one of those coaches will call and report them over anything that happens, then I think that plays a role if they have any goal of umpiring in big games. The assigning secretary isn't going to put officials in big games when coaches are constantly calling on them. Therefor, in order to maintain their own careers, they will go along to get along and it has become an epidemic in high school sports, especially in small towns where everyone knows each other. If the assigning secretary and the head coach of a team go to church together then whomever that coach wants umpiring his games, he'll get them. Umpires know this all too well, and will do things uncharacteristically in order to make sure they can ump big games. It's insane to me and there needs to be a better system of rating umpires, evaluating their work and even their promotions as well.

Thank you for trying to make a very important point that it seems very few on here are getting. As long as 15th region umpires do not have evaluation by knowledgeable independent personnel, their assignment to "important" games will be largely based on popularity and not proficiency. Another overlooked point relative to disciplining coaches (and players) is having an umpire assignor that is selected or appointed by the state rather than being dependent upon the member schools of the region for being selected to the position. In a perfect world, IMHO, this would be the best solution for helping umpires keep coaches (and players) in line. However, I realize the economics of the situation would prevent this scenario from becoming reality on the HS level.

[Baseballfan3]

Thank you for trying to make a very important point that it seems very few on here are getting. As long as 15th region umpires do not have evaluation by knowledgeable independent personnel, their assignment to "important" games will be largely based on popularity and not proficiency. Another overlooked point relative to disciplining coaches (and players) is having an umpire assignor that is selected or appointed by the state rather than being dependent upon the member schools of the region for being selected to the position. In a perfect world, IMHO, this would be the best solution for helping umpires keep coaches (and players) in line. However, I realize the economics of the situation would prevent this scenario from becoming reality on the HS level.

Then why describe a pitch that isn't even borderline?

[KHSAA Blue]

Then why describe a pitch that isn't even borderline?

BBF3,
You're not even in the same zip code regarding my statement. My post had nothing to do with the scenario that BB1974 described. Regarding the situation that he was talked about, to me, it's very simple. If the pitch was in the strike zone that he had been calling during that game and he was consistently calling it a strike, then it's a strike. If it was not in that area, it was a ball. The zone should not change based on the situation, player pitching, etc. if he had been calling the glove on the high curve ball earlier, he should have rang him up. HTBT, but it sounds like the plate umpire froze up because it was a borderline pitch. Again, I was not there, but I'll bet that particular umpire does not call balls when he's behind the plate.

[Baseballfan3]

BBF3,
You're not even in the same zip code regarding my statement. My post had nothing to do with the scenario that BB1974 described. Regarding the situation that he was talked about, to me, it's very simple. If the pitch was in the strike zone that he had been calling during that game and he was consistently calling it a strike, then it's a strike. If it was not in that area, it was a ball. The zone should not change based on the situation, player pitching, etc. if he had been calling the glove on the high curve ball earlier, he should have rang him up. HTBT, but it sounds like the plate umpire froze up because it was a borderline pitch. Again, I was not there, but I'll bet that particular umpire does not call balls when he's behind the plate.

Sorry, I meant to quote his post further up that was in reply of my earlier post.

[Completely Neutral]

To LCHSalum: it's clearly obvious that u and I was at the same game but apparently seen the situation completely different. The play was a very close banger call that could've went either way and the LC player was called out. At that time the first base coach didn't just put his hands out as if to say anything. He said " are u kidding me man? That's terrible. You have let their coach influence 2 of ur calls already" then he threw his hat on the ground. Now at that point the ump went up to him and very quietly said whatever it was he said and yes he did point his finger. But in that situation the base coach according to rules isn't permitted to say anything, the head coach ONLY may deal with an official. That came into play after what happened at the state tourney when coach Keeton was still coach at LC and the blow up happened with coach Feltner. But now after the ump said what he did he turned and went back to his spot and the head coach started yelling at him and said "you don't deal with my assistants you deal with me" and that's when the ump said "then you keep your assistants quiet and I won't have to deal with them". Now I was standing right beside the gate on the LC side when it happened and I heard it so if u didn't then IMO you chose not to. Now on the stolen base when ur coach approached the ump the ump stood there and talked to him and there was no heated exchange of no kind, there was no warning anybody. And when Hazards coaches did question a couple things they in no way acted out of line. As a matter of fact I remember the home plate umpire going to the hazard side and having an exchange with a player and a couple coaches after a player from hazard supposedly said something unsportsmanlike either to or about a LC player. So don't get on here and whine and cry like LC is just getting the short end of the stick and even the umpires are against LC. That's the problem at LC everyone there thinks that they should be held above everyone else.

[Commanche]

To LCHSalum: it's clearly obvious that u and I was at the same game but apparently seen the situation completely different. The play was a very close banger call that could've went either way and the LC player was called out. At that time the first base coach didn't just put his hands out as if to say anything. He said " are u kidding me man? That's terrible. You have let their coach influence 2 of ur calls already" then he threw his hat on the ground. Now at that point the ump went up to him and very quietly said whatever it was he said and yes he did point his finger. But in that situation the base coach according to rules isn't permitted to say anything, the head coach ONLY may deal with an official. That came into play after what happened at the state tourney when coach Keeton was still coach at LC and the blow up happened with coach Feltner. But now after the ump said what he did he turned and went back to his spot and the head coach started yelling at him and said "you don't deal with my assistants you deal with me" and that's when the ump said "then you keep your assistants quiet and I won't have to deal with them". Now I was standing right beside the gate on the LC side when it happened and I heard it so if u didn't then IMO you chose not to. Now on the stolen base when ur coach approached the ump the ump stood there and talked to him and there was no heated exchange of no kind, there was no warning anybody. And when Hazards coaches did question a couple things they in no way acted out of line. As a matter of fact I remember the home plate umpire going to the hazard side and having an exchange with a player and a couple coaches after a player from hazard supposedly said something unsportsmanlike either to or about a LC player. So don't get on here and whine and cry like LC is just getting the short end of the stick and even the umpires are against LC. That's the problem at LC everyone there thinks that they should be held above everyone else.

That dude, ie LCHSALUMNUS , wears roses colored glasses. He sees everything LC perspective. Wasting your time, everybody hates LC remember.

[KHSAA Blue]

To LCHSalum: it's clearly obvious that u and I was at the same game but apparently seen the situation completely different. The play was a very close banger call that could've went either way and the LC player was called out. At that time the first base coach didn't just put his hands out as if to say anything. He said " are u kidding me man? That's terrible. (1) You have let their coach influence 2 of ur calls already" then (2) he threw his hat on the ground. Now at that point the ump went up to him and very quietly said whatever it was he said and yes he did point his finger. But in that situation the base coach according to rules isn't permitted to say anything, the head coach ONLY may deal with an official. That came into play after what happened at the state tourney when coach Keeton was still coach at LC and the blow up happened with coach Feltner. But now after the ump said what he did he turned and went back to his spot and (3)the head coach started yelling at him and said "you don't deal with my assistants you deal with me" and that's when the ump said "then you keep your assistants quiet and I won't have to deal with them". Now I was standing right beside the gate on the LC side when it happened and I heard it so if u didn't then IMO you chose not to. Now on the stolen base when ur coach approached the ump the ump stood there and talked to him and there was no heated exchange of no kind, there was no warning anybody. And when Hazards coaches did question a couple things they in no way acted out of line. As a matter of fact I remember the home plate umpire going to the hazard side and having an exchange with a player and a couple coaches after a player from hazard supposedly said something unsportsmanlike either to or about a LC player. So don't get on here and whine and cry like LC is just getting the short end of the stick and even the umpires are against LC. That's the problem at LC everyone there thinks that they should be held above everyone else.

Assuming the CN's post is word by word accurate, here is what would have happened in a apolitical "perfect" world:

(1) above- Assistant coach restricted or ejected- Head coach restricted by rule
(2) above- Assistant coach ejected- Head coach restricted by rule
(3) above- Head coach trying to incite a demonstration by spectators (otherwise known as "showing up an umpire") - Head coach restricted or ejected

In other words, three separate incidents on one play that could have resulting in disciplinary action and none was forthcoming. And, this is how this particular squad acts while on probation? Correct me if I'm wrong, but they seem pretty confident that the "tiger has no teeth". :Shaking:

[baseball1974]

Arguing balls and strikes and even judgement calls on the bases is a losing battle and will never end good for a coach trying to show that umpire up for making the call. Most coaches start to learn this as they get older and wiser. Umpires do make mistakes. That's apart of being human and most of them make up for their mistakes. How would a head coach feel if every time he made a mistake they were broadcasted to everyone in attendance? Coaches make many mistakes during the course of a game. Whether it be sending a runner when they shouldn't, calling the wrong pitch in a certain situation, or even a bad judgement call on their part. It happens very often. They would lose their mind if they were shown up the way they show up umpires. The only time it is exceptable is when there is a rule that needs explained or if an umpire completely steps over a line and the coach is taking up for his player. Anything else is petty and experienced, good sound coaches do not let their assistants or themselves react to situations in that manner.

[LCHSbulldogsalum]

To LCHSalum: it's clearly obvious that u and I was at the same game but apparently seen the situation completely different. The play was a very close banger call that could've went either way and the LC player was called out. At that time the first base coach didn't just put his hands out as if to say anything. He said " are u kidding me man? That's terrible. You have let their coach influence 2 of ur calls already" then he threw his hat on the ground. Now at that point the ump went up to him and very quietly said whatever it was he said and yes he did point his finger. But in that situation the base coach according to rules isn't permitted to say anything, the head coach ONLY may deal with an official. That came into play after what happened at the state tourney when coach Keeton was still coach at LC and the blow up happened with coach Feltner. But now after the ump said what he did he turned and went back to his spot and the head coach started yelling at him and said "you don't deal with my assistants you deal with me" and that's when the ump said "then you keep your assistants quiet and I won't have to deal with them". Now I was standing right beside the gate on the LC side when it happened and I heard it so if u didn't then IMO you chose not to. Now on the stolen base when ur coach approached the ump the ump stood there and talked to him and there was no heated exchange of no kind, there was no warning anybody. And when Hazards coaches did question a couple things they in no way acted out of line. As a matter of fact I remember the home plate umpire going to the hazard side and having an exchange with a player and a couple coaches after a player from hazard supposedly said something unsportsmanlike either to or about a LC player. So don't get on here and whine and cry like LC is just getting the short end of the stick and even the umpires are against LC. That's the problem at LC everyone there thinks that they should be held above everyone else.

Never saw the hat throw. My bad if that happened. Still, doesn't change the fact it was a bad call, and sorry it was NOT a "bang bang" play. However, a few things from your post have revealed a little bit of info about something....very interesting.....nicker:

[Completely Neutral]

I see where ur going and I replied to ur PM. Nice try but ur reaching. Just bc I said bang bang means nothing but I have been around the game and coached the game my whole life.
Oh and bc I actually watched the game and seen what happened. Another piece of info. It's my job to know what happens at ballgames bc people like to know details later, lol. Unravel that one.

[LCHSbulldogsalum]

Assuming the CN's post is word by word accurate, here is what would have happened in a apolitical "perfect" world:

(1) above- Assistant coach restricted or ejected- Head coach restricted by rule
(2) above- Assistant coach ejected- Head coach restricted by rule
(3) above- Head coach trying to incite a demonstration by spectators (otherwise known as "showing up an umpire") - Head coach restricted or ejected

In other words, three separate incidents on one play that could have resulting in disciplinary action and none was forthcoming. And, this is how this particular squad acts while on probation? Correct me if I'm wrong, but they seem pretty confident that the "tiger has no teeth". :Shaking:

Probation? There's not any probation.

[baseball1974]

Never saw the hat throw. My bad if that happened. Still, doesn't change the fact it was a bad call, and sorry it was NOT a "bang bang" play. However, a few things from your post have revealed a little bit of info about something....very interesting.....nicker:

I think you've revealed more than he has.

Yes, both Lawrence and PCC are on probation for the remainder of the season.

[LCHSbulldogsalum]

I think you've revealed more than he has.

Yes, both Lawrence and PCC are on probation for the remainder of the season.

What? I really didn't see the coach throw the hat. Probably lucky he wasn't ejected. That's usually automatic. Still, you have to admit that umpiring in the local regions hasn't been great, or even good, of late.