[bucslover68]

In honor of Pikeville versus Belfry this week, give me your arguments which team has the better program all-time. Seems to me that a strong case could be made for either side...Multiple state titles and state championship appearances, great players and coaches, etc...Make your case, but make it a good one...I will make mine after I see some of the comments.

[Real Badman]

I'm a Belfry guy, but;

3>2

[bucslover68]

Normally totally agree Badman, but there also seems to me more than just championships in defining a program and in the year of Pikeville's number 3, they weren't even the best team in Pike County although they were the best in Single A that year.

[Big Five-0-]

Normally totally agree Badman, but there also seems to me more than just championships in defining a program and in the year of Pikeville's number 3, they weren't even the best team in Pike County although they were the best in Single A that year.

True. However, they were the 1st team in Ky. to win three championships in a row( regardless of class). So i guess this would be a plus in defining a football program.

[bear claw]

I am an outsider and have NO clue on these two programs but who has won the most State Championships? Who has been to the most SC Games? Who has won more games? What is the series record between these two?

[Jarons]

I am an outsider and have NO clue on these two programs but who has won the most State Championships? Who has been to the most SC Games? Who has won more games? What is the series record between these two?

SC games? State championship games?

[bear claw]

Yes, sorry SC games means State Championship games. My bad.

[bucslover68]

In the semi-modern era, so to speak, which goes back to 1959 on the KHSAA records, Pikeville has 3 titles in 87, 88, and 89 and other appearances in the title game in 1972, 79, and 91. Belfry has 2003 and 2004 titles and championship game appearances in 1979, 85, 86, 07, 10, 11, 12.

[bucslover68]

Very true Five-O and that is the type of stuff I would like out of this thread, but I would like for someone to make an argument on either side, of the program as a whole. If championships are the ONLY measure of a program, then that is not too good of a measure IMO.

[pirateforlife00]

IMO the best way to compare to see which team is the better all-time program is to see the head to head matchups. You can't compare ONLY championships because the teams are in different classes. Anyone has the all-time record between the two?

[bucslover68]

I believe it is something like 31-18-1 in favor of Belfry. Someone correct me if I am off a little bit on the numbers, but I don't have all my stats in front of me. This series was basically even before Belfry went on their current twelve in a row run.

[skully03]

Bucslover, like one poster said I too believe the way to tell who has the better all time program is to go by the number of state championships and all time head to head record. You can also factor in the smaller accomplishments such as how far they reached in the past seasons. Regional championships, state semis and appearance in state semi. To me by just going on the info I have as far as state titles and appearances and head to head records the edge goes to Belfry because of one word, HAYWOOD!!! The name speaks for itself. Opinion could change after seeing the info for regionals, etc.

[Buc-a-roo]

IMO the best way to compare to see which team is the better all-time program is to see the head to head matchups. You can't compare ONLY championships because the teams are in different classes. Anyone has the all-time record between the two?

Wouldn't the fact that they are in different classes lessen the validity of using head to head matchup as the measuring stick? The team in the higher class would be expected to have won more games against the team in the smaller class, especially if it is 2 classes smaller.

Both programs have been excellent and both programs have had ups and downs. Tough argument to settle in either direction in my opinion.

[bucslover68]

I normally concur right with that Buc, but PHS fans always make the point that at least for the 87 team they were the best team in the state regardless of class. PHS is now much more a class dependent team, meaning it would be much harder for them to compete with the top teams in the other classes. In 87 and 88, IMO, the Panthers could match up with about anyone. Not so much now. I don't think head to head would be THE measuring stick, but I do think that it is a part of the overall equation if you compare two programs that have played as much as PHS/BHS. IMO, there are a lot of factors that have not been mentioned yet. BTW, does anyone have numbers on the total wins, or close to it, for both programs. I agree that the argument would be tough either way. I am waiting to make my argument and I am hoping EKU will give an expose' and make it for me lol.

[FBALL]

Up until about the last decade I would have said Pikeville. Belfry in the 2000s has just put out one good team after another. They have been on a remarkable run.

[Panther Thunder]

I will compile some stuff and post more later.

I will say this, and maybe I'm just ignorant and do not know any better, but in my honest opinion, the removal of Chris McNamee contributed a great portion of the dark years in the latter 2000's of the PHS program. It allowed BHS to create a bigger gap and caused PHS to fall behind the pack further in Class A.

[pirateforlife00]

Buc-a-roo' not really its a head to head match up which I think has nothing to do with classes. Pikeville was a class below belfry in the 80s but they were expected to win most of the time. At one point in I believe it was 1988 pikeville was considered the best team in the state of ky regardless of class. They were even ranked nationally. Mayfield.and beechwood are two of the smaller.schools I think of when I think of great.football programs in ky and them 2 can compete with the 5a and 6a schools

[Big Five-0-]

I will compile some stuff and post more later.

I will say this, and maybe I'm just ignorant and do not know any better, but in my honest opinion, the removal of Chris McNamee contributed a great portion of the dark years in the latter 2000's of the PHS program. It allowed BHS to create a bigger gap and caused PHS to fall behind the pack further in Class A.

Totally agree with this.

[bucslover68]

I will compile some stuff and post more later.

I will say this, and maybe I'm just ignorant and do not know any better, but in my honest opinion, the removal of Chris McNamee contributed a great portion of the dark years in the latter 2000's of the PHS program. It allowed BHS to create a bigger gap and caused PHS to fall behind the pack further in Class A.

I agree PT. Mac has been a family friend for a long time. I am glad he is there and I agree he should have always been there. One of the main reasons Belfry has had the success they have is that they have left the core of their staff alone for years and years and let them teach and build and it has worked out real good and I see that happening at Pikeville if they just let Mac and his staff coach.

[E's Army]

Belfry has opened a gap over Pikeville since 2000. Before that Pikeville was a little ahead. This worm could turn but I don't expect it to in the near future.

[1/4bak]

Belfry by 20 at least, this game will be much like the Wayne and Williamsburg game good 1a teams playing the 2best 3a teams in the state. The only difference in this game may be county pride or bragging rights. Both will benefit from this game

[HAIL PIKEVILLE!]

I will compile some stuff and post more later.

I will say this, and maybe I'm just ignorant and do not know any better, but in my honest opinion, the removal of Chris McNamee contributed a great portion of the dark years in the latter 2000's of the PHS program. It allowed BHS to create a bigger gap and caused PHS to fall behind the pack further in Class A.

You are 100% correct. At that time this program was inundated with self serving folks who wanted this program to work for them and their interests instead of the other way around. That's why Coach Mac was forced out because those people knew he'd never go along w/ that. It's our duty as Alumni to make sure that NEVER happens again. I'm just glad it's back on track now.

[new o]

Coach Mac is a great coach and an even better person.

[HDE]

You are 100% correct. At that time this program was inundated with self serving folks who wanted this program to work for them and their interests instead of the other way around. That's why Coach Mac was forced out because those people knew he'd never go along w/ that. It's our duty as Alumni to make sure that NEVER happens again. I'm just glad it's back on track now.

That seems awfully vague.
How could a program work for someone's interests?

[HAIL PIKEVILLE!]

That seems awfully vague.
How could a program work for someone's interests?

If you were there during that time like I was and saw what I saw. You would understand. No sense in getting into on here. Just thank GOD it's over.

[HAIL PIKEVILLE!]

I'll go with Pikeville (Everyone try not to die of shock!) My argument is a valid one though. Both Pikeville and Belfry have impressive numbers and long term tradition. But what, in my mind, sets Pikeville apart is from a historical importance standpoint in regards to what they did for high school football in this region in the '80s. In the late 1980s Pikeville didn't only bring state wide attention to this region but NATIONAL attention as well (first and, to my knowledge, only mountain team to ever be ranked in The USA Today Top 25. The People Magazine Article..Etc) Before those Pikeville teams came along. Football in the mountains wasn't taken very seriously by many folks who lived in the mountains and even less by those who lived outside of it. Of course you had good teams in the mountains before that time. Pikeville and Belfry were in that mix as well. The common thought process during that time among those outside the mountains and especially in what The Late Great Big Dipper referred to as "The Bermuda Triangle" (Lexington,Louisville, Suburban Cincinatti) was that mountain teams simply couldn't compete with teams from that area. The '87 Panthers shot that theory all to pieces! They proved that not only could a mountain team play with the schools from those but they could run all over them! This made the entire state stand up and take notice. They gained respect for ALL of mountain football to those outside the mountains and made mountain football a much bigger priority to those who lived in the mountains that looked at football as something to pass the time until the gym opended up. Do not get me wrong. I'm in no way trying to diminish what Belfry has accomplished. Their record speaks for itself and deserves the Utmost respect. I'm also not implying that mountain football Didnt exist before those '80s Pikeville teams. All Im saying is that the rising tide that was those '80s Pikeville teams, raised all ships in the mountains to the level it enjoys to this day. THAT (Plus more trophies in the trophy case that say "State Champion" on them) is what sets Pikeville apart. But what I love most is: When you go to other places in this state and say you're from either Pikeville or Belfry. The first thing folks usually think of isn't SSI Checks, Pill Mills, Single Wide Trailers, or any other negative stereotypes associated with being from this area. They think high school football! That is something that both of our communities should be very proud of!

[HAIL PIKEVILLE!]

I'm a Belfry guy, but;

3>2

Actually it's 4<2. The NCAA schools recognize the titles they got from a panel of voting sports writers....Why shouldn't we recognize our 1955 state championship team?!?!?

[EKUAlum05]

Putting the bias aside there really is a very cut and dry answer.

As it stands right now...as a sum of all the parts... it is Belfry and by a good bit.

Prior to the past decade it would have been Pikeville by and it wouldn't even be close. But you simply can't omit a decade from essentially a 50 year history since it is 20% of the time, and in that 20% increment Belfry has not only closed the gap but maintained an consistency of elite play the likes of which Pikeville had never enjoyed .

Pikeville gets bonus points for the fact that 40 years they went head to head with belfry being the smaller 1A school. In that case a tie has to favor the Panthers being as though they were a smaller school accustomed to playing smaller schools.

On the flip side, this also works against Pikeville in the fact their success on reaching the State Finals is almost entirely limited to one decade (despite still competing with 1A schools), whereas Belfry has been able to make runs in several decades.

I like HP's intangible point above to argue in Pikeville's favor..but I see that point and raise him Phillip Haywood, the State's Winningest Coach and a guy who himself has changed the shape of Mountain Football as well. I would also be remiss if I did not point out that the great Pikeville run under Howard was ended by Belfry.

It does bring up another interesting question:
If Coach Howard coached an extra decade where would Pikeville be now? Would they have ever had their lull over the past decade? Would they have another Championship?

So once again...as it stands now where you have to include Belfry's dominant run of the past decade it is Belfry by a solid margin. Yet, anyone who would try to argue it was even a tie prior to the 2000's is clearly not giving Pikeville credit as they were clearly the best PROGRAM overall until then.

[jetpilot]

People can argue until they are blue in the face and type on here 'til the cows come home. Just sit Belfry's 2 championship trophies beside Pikeville's 3 and see how puny they look in comparison. End of story.

Pikeville = :1::1::1:
Belfry = :1::1:

hh:

[EKUAlum05]

People can argue until they are blue in the face and type on here 'til the cows come home. Just sit Belfry's 2 championship trophies beside Pikeville's 3 and see how puny they look in comparison. End of story.

Pikeville = :1::1::1:
Belfry = :1::1:

hh:

So in your opinion Breathitt County, Corbin, and Fort Knox are at the very least equal programs to Pikeville and more than likely better All-Time?