[TheRealThing]

Bush completely destroyed the economy. Anyway you look at it.

^ Maybe if you hadn't been in diapers at the time, or just out of them, you would have something to bargain with other than RealVille's support. If it's too far over your head, and that seems obvious at this point, consider this: National debt when Bush left office- 9.4 trillion, National debt a little over 3 years into Obama's tenure- 16.4 trillion That's a 7 trillion increase in 3 years.

Class dismissed

[TheRealVille]

I heard over and over again the charge being made during the Bush Administration. "Bush is in bed with big oil" The fact that it SPIKED, once in eight years, can't be compared to three plus years of 3.50 a gallon prices of your hero's administration. Or the fact that he is trying to kill the pipeline. How does an oil company's willingness to make a profit by exporting gas make a political point for (bolded) you? You said you had no problem with the pipeline if it didn't go across (your words) "that waterway." I gave you the link for a map published by a liberal source showing HUNDREDS of pipelines going across "that waterway," Additionally, 95% of the whole state of Nebraska rests over the Ogallala Aquifer, matter of fact, if Nebraska lost the land not over the aquifer, they'd never miss it! What is the difference in your mind regarding this particular pipeline crossing the state of Neb vs the existing pipelines?

One minute you're saying we're about to run out of fossil fuels and we have to develope renewable energy sources, which, don't exist yet by the way, the next, you're arguing the point that we are awash in the stuff, which is it? If the pipeline doesn't go to Texas it is headed for China the way I hear it. Even you can't be in favor of that outcome. Advocating for the closure of viable electrical generating stations, high gas prices, blocking the Canadian pipeline, strangling coal mining/clean air regulations and oil drilling moratoriums in the gulf and Alaska, just cannot be reconciled with sound logic or the good of America IMO I guess that's why it's a democratic position

Let me go real slow, so you can keep up. First, You said, "If we have a surplus of gasoline right now why is it so high?" This thread is about a link that in fact, shows that we have a surplus of gas and are exporting it to foreign countries.

Second point(what I bolded above), your statement is an outright lie, or just plain ignorance of what really was. Gas didn't just "spike once", it was through the roof the last four years that Bush 2 was in office, all except just before the last part of the year(2008), just before the general election. In 2004 gas was around 2.50 a gallon, and climbed steadily up to 3.50 late in 2008, where it dropped just before the general election.

[Wildcatk23]

^ Maybe if you hadn't been in diapers at the time, or just out of them, you would have something to bargain with other than RealVille's support. If it's too far over your head, and that seems obvious at this point, consider this: National debt when Bush left office- 9.4 trillion, National debt a little over 3 years into Obama's tenure- 16.4 trillion That's a 7 trillion increase in 3 years.

Class dismissed

What was in when he took office? 6 million?

Just because Obama couldnt float a sinking ship you want to lay all the blame on him.

[Wildcatk23]

I love your guys defense of gas prices. It was a $1.80 when bush left. Come on, The graph dont lie.

[TheRealVille]

Let me go real slow, so you can keep up. First, You said, "If we have a surplus of gasoline right now why is it so high?" This thread is about a link that in fact, shows that we have a surplus of gas and are exporting it to foreign countries.

Second point(what I bolded above), your statement is an outright lie, or just plain ignorance of what really was. Gas didn't just "spike once", it was through the roof the last four years that Bush 2 was in office, all except just before the last part of the year(2008), just before the general election. In 2004 gas was around 2.50 a gallon, and climbed steadily up to 3.50 late in 2008, where it dropped just before the general election.

I posted wrong numbers here, it was in fact 4.25 in July of 2008. In 2008, the average was 3.50, with a high of 4.25.

[Hoot Gibson]

What was in when he took office? 6 million?

Just because Obama couldnt float a sinking ship you want to lay all the blame on him.

Bush added about $4 trillion to the national debt over an 8 year period. Obama said that adding so much debt to the American public was "irresponsible" and "unpatriotic."

Is Obama "irresponsible" and "unpatriotic" for adding more than $5 trillion to the national debt in only 3 years? I think that he is. (I think that Bush was irresponsible for expanding the federal government and adding so much debt.)

Why are liberals so determined to reward the worst performance by a president in history?

[Wildcatk23]

Bush added about $4 trillion to the national debt over an 8 year period. Obama said that adding so much debt to the American public was "irresponsible" and "unpatriotic."

Is Obama "irresponsible" and "unpatriotic" for adding more than $5 trillion to the national debt in only 3 years? I think that he is. (I think that Bush was irresponsible for expanding the federal government and adding so much debt.)

Why are liberals so determined to reward the worst performance by a president in history?

Because you guys refuse to understand that bush had the country in ruins. That was not able to be fixed in 3 years.

And when someone comes in and says that Bush had the gas at 1.80 its laughable. Just because it dropped right before election time so the BIg oil buddies could get there republican back in there doesn't mean that's what everyone had been paying. I remember 3.75 and 3.90.

[Hoot Gibson]

Because you guys refuse to understand that bush had the country in ruins. That was not able to be fixed in 3 years.

And when someone comes in and says that Bush had the gas at 1.80 its laughable. Just because it dropped right before election time so the BIg oil buddies could get there republican back in there doesn't mean that's what everyone had been paying. I remember 3.75 and 3.90.

Gas prices shot up under Bush because, for most of his term in office, the economy did very well and the demand for gasoline was high. At the end of his term, gas prices plummeted when the housing bubble burst and the big banks fell on hard times. Despite an extremely sluggish economy and an unemployment rate that is much higher than he took office, gas prices have soared since Obama took office. Why do you think that has happened and what do you think will happen to gas prices when the economy finally recovers?

[TheRealVille]

Gas prices shot up under Bush because, for most of his term in office, the economy did very well and the demand for gasoline was high. At the end of his term, gas prices plummeted when the housing bubble burst and the big banks fell on hard times. Despite an extremely sluggish economy and an unemployment rate that is much higher than he took office, gas prices have soared since Obama took office. Why do you think that has happened and what do you think will happen to gas prices when the economy finally recovers?

Reread your own post, and then tell me your momma didn't drop you on you head. :please:

[Hoot Gibson]

Reread your own post, and then tell me your momma didn't drop you on you head. :please:

What part of my post did you not understand?

[TheRealVille]

What part of my post did you not understand?

Gas was high under Bush because the economy was good, yet because the economy is bad under Obama, gas is high?

[Hoot Gibson]

Throughout Bush's time in office, liberals claimed that gas prices were high because Bush and Cheney were "big oil" men who colluded with the large oil companies to fix prices. Now that gas prices are near record highs for this time of year, liberals are reduced to defending Obama by arguing that gas prices are not higher than they were under Bush.

My question for you liberals is, why are prices not substantially lower under Obama if the high prices of the previous 8 years were the fault of Bush and Cheney?

[Hoot Gibson]

Gas was high under Bush because the economy was good, yet because the economy is bad under Obama, gas is high?

No, gas prices are high under Obama despite his mismanagement of the economy. I am asking you and WC why gas prices have risen under Obama if the high prices of the previous 8 years was Bush's fault? Gas prices should have dropped precipitously.

[TheRealVille]

No, gas prices are high under Obama despite his mismanagement of the economy. I am asking you and WC why gas prices have risen under Obama if the high prices of the previous 8 years was Bush's fault? Gas prices should have dropped precipitously.

I've never said that Bush was the reason gas prices were high under him, or Obama was the reason they were high under him. I was just setting TRT straight that he didn't have his facts straight on what he was posting about gas prices under the two presidents. I know that the President can't control prices.

[Hoot Gibson]

I've never said that Bush was the reason gas prices were high under him, or Obama was the reason they were high under him. I was just setting TRT straight that he didn't have his facts straight on what he was posting about gas prices under the two presidents. I know that the President can't control prices.

Government policies have a big impact on energy prices. Prices are set by the global market, so whether the US is a net exporter or importer of gasoline will have no impact on prices at the pump.

The US's economic recovery is lagging many other countries and the value of the dollar has continued to decline under Obama. When the economy recovers, the sky will be the limit for gasoline prices.

There is nothing in the short term that Obama can do to lower gasoline prices but in the long term, he and Congressional Democrats are ensuring high energy prices for the foreseeable future. While China's leaders are trotting around the globe locking up oil supplies, this country continues to make it more difficult to drill for oil on federal lands and we are pushing the Canadians into the arms of oil-thirsty China.

It is a recipe for disaster and gasoline prices will be higher under the next administration, no matter which party wins the White House.

[TheRealVille]

Government policies have a big impact on energy prices. Prices are set by the global market, so whether the US is a net exporter or importer of gasoline will have no impact on prices at the pump.

The US's economic recovery is lagging many other countries and the value of the dollar has continued to decline under Obama. When the economy recovers, the sky will be the limit for gasoline prices.

There is nothing in the short term that Obama can do to lower gasoline prices but in the long term, he and Congressional Democrats are ensuring high energy prices for the foreseeable future. While China's leaders are trotting around the globe locking up oil supplies, this country continues to make it more difficult to drill for oil on federal lands and we are pushing the Canadians into the arms of oil-thirsty China.

It is a recipe for disaster and gasoline prices will be higher under the next administration, no matter which party wins the White House.

It is not a recipe that started under Obama, it started under Bush.

[Hoot Gibson]

It is not a recipe that started under Obama, it started under Bush.

It started under Jimmy Carter and liberal Democrats have fought to place coal and oil reserves off limits or prohibitively expensive to recover ever since. There is no excuse for the drilling moratorium in ANWR and no excuse for rejecting a pipeline from Canada that would cross states that are already criss-crossed with existing pipelines. Those are decisions that will have a long term economic impact on this country's citizens.

[Beetle01]

Of course we export more gasoline than we import. I would say we import very little gasoline at all. This is a misleading article. We have a large refinery base in America. We mainly import the oil and turn it into other forms of fuel. Just because we are exporting gasoline is not going to affect prices. The cost of gasoline in the country has little to do with supple and demand. Very little at all. Supply is fine and demand is fine and has been. Its all been speculators driving up prices. There needs to be regulation on this but to many people are making way to much money on it. It has nothing to do with pipelines, environmentalists, Iran, or any other nonsense you hear spewed on your TV.

Since we are talking about pipelines, have any of you stopped to ask the question why Canada wants to run that pipeline through America and not to their own shores? Its because they know like all other oil sands pipelines it is going to be an environmental disaster. They already have major problems with existing oil sands pipelines and they can't do another one. BTW its not going to create very many jobs for Americans. Read up on your facts. Any jobs will be short lived and almost all of them will go to foreign companies and foreign workers.

[TheRealVille]

Of course we export more gasoline than we import. I would say we import very little gasoline at all. This is a misleading article. We have a large refinery base in America. We mainly import the oil and turn it into other forms of fuel. Just because we are exporting gasoline is not going to affect prices. The cost of gasoline in the country has little to do with supple and demand. Very little at all. Supply is fine and demand is fine and has been. Its all been speculators driving up prices. There needs to be regulation on this but to many people are making way to much money on it. It has nothing to do with pipelines, environmentalists, Iran, or any other nonsense you hear spewed on your TV.

Since we are talking about pipelines, have any of you stopped to ask the question why Canada wants to run that pipeline through America and not to their own shores? Its because they know like all other oil sands pipelines it is going to be an environmental disaster. They already have major problems with existing oil sands pipelines and they can't do another one. BTW its not going to create very many jobs for Americans. Read up on your facts. Any jobs will be short lived and almost all of them will go to foreign companies and foreign workers.

:Thumbs: But,........ with this type of thinking we can't blame Obama.

[SKINNYPIG]

Bush sucked...So does Obama. Bush is gone and Obama needs to be. Can we agree on that?

[Bob Seger]

Of course we export more gasoline than we import. I would say we import very little gasoline at all. This is a misleading article. We have a large refinery base in America. We mainly import the oil and turn it into other forms of fuel. Just because we are exporting gasoline is not going to affect prices. The cost of gasoline in the country has little to do with supple and demand. Very little at all. Supply is fine and demand is fine and has been. Its all been speculators driving up prices. There needs to be regulation on this but to many people are making way to much money on it. It has nothing to do with pipelines, environmentalists, Iran, or any other nonsense you hear spewed on your TV.

Since we are talking about pipelines, have any of you stopped to ask the question why Canada wants to run that pipeline through America and not to their own shores? Its because they know like all other oil sands pipelines it is going to be an environmental disaster. They already have major problems with existing oil sands pipelines and they can't do another one. BTW its not going to create very many jobs for Americans. Read up on your facts. Any jobs will be short lived and almost all of them will go to foreign companies and foreign workers.

I dont think the problems have so much to do with pipelines. Isn't it the extraction of oil from the sands that is enviromentally sensitive?

[Bob Seger]

Of course we export more gasoline than we import. I would say we import very little gasoline at all. This is a misleading article. We have a large refinery base in America. We mainly import the oil and turn it into other forms of fuel. Just because we are exporting gasoline is not going to affect prices. The cost of gasoline in the country has little to do with supple and demand. Very little at all. Supply is fine and demand is fine and has been. Its all been speculators driving up prices. There needs to be regulation on this but to many people are making way to much money on it. It has nothing to do with pipelines, environmentalists, Iran, or any other nonsense you hear spewed on your TV.

Since we are talking about pipelines, have any of you stopped to ask the question why Canada wants to run that pipeline through America and not to their own shores? Its because they know like all other oil sands pipelines it is going to be an environmental disaster. They already have major problems with existing oil sands pipelines and they can't do another one. BTW its not going to create very many jobs for Americans. Read up on your facts. Any jobs will be short lived and almost all of them will go to foreign companies and foreign workers.

We have a refining base that in good economic times in the US cant keep up with demand just for US comsumption. The EPA has made it impossible to build new refineries. The last one built in the United States was back in 1976.

[Beetle01]

Bob did you even read what you typed. We are exporting gasoline yet we can't produce enough for our own demands? Hmmm. Something is missing there. I agree they need to build more refineries and we should work with them to do so. But I also don't want to turn our country into even more of a toxic wasteland than it is. Go fish the Ohio and eat it and come back to me in a year if you are still alive after doing that for a year. I've grown up my entire life in an area that is purely toxic. The air and water quality is some of the worst in the country and our cancer rates are crazy high due to it.

How much did bp pay for the toxic stew they created in the gulf. How much do American taxpayers pay? Sure there are some risks we take for having cheaper fuel or products but our govt let's these companies slide by with nothing less than pure negligence. Because the big energy and oil corps fatten the pockets of the politicians who are supposed to be protecting us

[Bob Seger]

Bob did you even read what you typed. We are exporting gasoline yet we can't produce enough for our own demands? Hmmm. Something is missing there. I agree they need to build more refineries and we should work with them to do so. But I also don't want to turn our country into even more of a toxic wasteland than it is. Go fish the Ohio and eat it and come back to me in a year if you are still alive after doing that for a year. I've grown up my entire life in an area that is purely toxic. The air and water quality is some of the worst in the country and our cancer rates are crazy high due to it.

How much did bp pay for the toxic stew they created in the gulf. How much do American taxpayers pay? Sure there are some risks we take for having cheaper fuel or products but our govt let's these companies slide by with nothing less than pure negligence. Because the big energy and oil corps fatten the pockets of the politicians who are supposed to be protecting us

lol...Evidently you didn't read what I typed. I said when economic times are "good" in the US. The reason why we are exporting is because of vacant refining capacity. Anyone who understands about how the manufacturing/production process works can tell you that the cost of whatever you are producing goes down when you are running at full capacity. Gasoline would even be higher than it is now if these refineries were not filling the US demand "void" with exports.

But I do agree with what you posted in another thread saying that the price has been driven up due to speculators rather than what supply/demand has dictated.


I dont know Beetle about the cost of the spill. How much did BP pay out? How much did the US taxpayer pay out?

[Beetle01]

lol...Evidently you didn't read what I typed. I said when economic times are "good" in the US. The reason why we are exporting is because of vacant refining capacity. Anyone who understands about how the manufacturing/production process works can tell you that the cost of whatever you are producing goes down when you are running at full capacity. Gasoline would even be higher than it is now if these refineries were not filling the US demand "void" with exports.

But I do agree with what you posted in another thread saying that the price has been driven up due to speculators rather than what supply/demand has dictated.


I dont know Beetle about the cost of the spill. How much did BP pay out? How much did the US taxpayer pay out?

I read your post just fine, but I do not know when you consider to be good economic times. However, I do know that demand for gasoline has stayed relatively the same for quite awhile, at least going back a decade. Sure there are dips in peaks for a month or so here and there, and small trends over a couple months but overall the demand has stayed the same. When prices were high under Bush it wasnt because demand was greater than production capability. It was for the same reason prices are high now. Speculation.

The gas and oil industry has nothing to do with supply and demand when it comes to its prices. As soon as people get past this little distraction technique used by both parties the sooner we can get to finding a real solution. However, as long as politicians think they can keep everyone distracted, they will not have to address the problem and will continue taking big time money from energy corps.

[Bob Seger]

I read your post just fine, but I do not know when you consider to be good economic times. However, I do know that demand for gasoline has stayed relatively the same for quite awhile, at least going back a decade. Sure there are dips in peaks for a month or so here and there, and small trends over a couple months but overall the demand has stayed the same. When prices were high under Bush it wasnt because demand was greater than production capability. It was for the same reason prices are high now. Speculation.

The gas and oil industry has nothing to do with supply and demand when it comes to its prices. As soon as people get past this little distraction technique used by both parties the sooner we can get to finding a real solution. However, as long as politicians think they can keep everyone distracted, they will not have to address the problem and will continue taking big time money from energy corps.

Beeetle Beetle Beetle. Sometimes I think you have a basic understanding of some of this stuff and then wham!!!!! There goes that theory.....lol

[Hoot Gibson]

I read your post just fine, but I do not know when you consider to be good economic times. However, I do know that demand for gasoline has stayed relatively the same for quite awhile, at least going back a decade. Sure there are dips in peaks for a month or so here and there, and small trends over a couple months but overall the demand has stayed the same. When prices were high under Bush it wasnt because demand was greater than production capability. It was for the same reason prices are high now. Speculation.

The gas and oil industry has nothing to do with supply and demand when it comes to its prices. As soon as people get past this little distraction technique used by both parties the sooner we can get to finding a real solution. However, as long as politicians think they can keep everyone distracted, they will not have to address the problem and will continue taking big time money from energy corps.

Let's say that tomorrow morning President Obama announced a new energy plan based on the following:

1. The oil reserves in Alaska's ANWR would immediately be opened for exploratory drilling. Upon the completion of exploration leases for those reserves would be auctioned to American oil companies.

2. The oil reserves off the Atlantic and Gulf costs would similarly be explored and lease to American companies - barring objection from the affected states.

3. A commission would be appointed and charged with making recommendations to place federal oil, gas, and coal reserves into production as quickly and as safely as practcable.

4. EPA regulations would revert to those in effect during the Clinton administration, to the extent that such changes would not violate current federal law.

These are changes in policy that Obama could easily make with very little effort.

Do you think that speculators would continue to inflate the cost of gasoline under this scenario?

There are good reasons for speculators to expect future gasoline prices to remain vry high. The right set of government policies would result in an immediate and sharp decline in prices at the pump. All it would take is a sane energy policy and a president who does not pander to environmental wackos and pour billions of taxpayer dollars into "green" alternative energy companies that happen to b very generous donors to his campaigns.

[Beetle01]

Let's say that tomorrow morning President Obama announced a new energy plan based on the following:

1. The oil reserves in Alaska's ANWR would immediately be opened for exploratory drilling. Upon the completion of exploration leases for those reserves would be auctioned to American oil companies.

2. The oil reserves off the Atlantic and Gulf costs would similarly be explored and lease to American companies - barring objection from the affected states.

3. A commission would be appointed and charged with making recommendations to place federal oil, gas, and coal reserves into production as quickly and as safely as practcable.

4. EPA regulations would revert to those in effect during the Clinton administration, to the extent that such changes would not violate current federal law.

These are changes in policy that Obama could easily make with very little effort.

Do you think that speculators would continue to inflate the cost of gasoline under this scenario?

There are good reasons for speculators to expect future gasoline prices to remain vry high. The right set of government policies would result in an immediate and sharp decline in prices at the pump. All it would take is a sane energy policy and a president who does not pander to environmental wackos and pour billions of taxpayer dollars into "green" alternative energy companies that happen to b very generous donors to his campaigns.

Oh sure there would be an initial drop in prices for a short period. But however, once again the prices are not based on supply/demand. they are artificially inflated and no amount of drilling or refinery building is going to change that.

Of course multiple factors do play into the cost. Speculators and oil future markets are just one, but very key. Since gas prices have been high since the early 2000's, Big Oil has been making record profits........ I mean hmmmm wonder why that is. Couldn't be they reduced refining capacity by almost 1,000,000 barrels a day by shutting down refineries between 1995-2001.

If oil companies were making the same profits they were in the mid 90's what would the cost of gasoline be at the pump?

Lets not even mention during these times when the oil companies were shutting down refining capacity, the big players were buying up all of their competition. The same thing that has happened to the banking industry that has set up the "we can't let them fail banks"

I saw a great graph on how over the past 30 years about 50 major national banks had basically been consolidated into 4 over time.

The same thing has happened to oil companies. Buy up all of the competition, shut down refining, make record profits = we pay 3.50 a gallon, even though in truth supply and demand has not changed so drastically. Even with the shut down of those refineries this country is still able to meet its demand needs for gasoline.

[Hoot Gibson]

Oh sure there would be an initial drop in prices for a short period. But however, once again the prices are not based on supply/demand. they are artificially inflated and no amount of drilling or refinery building is going to change that.

Of course multiple factors do play into the cost. Speculators and oil future markets are just one, but very key. Since gas prices have been high since the early 2000's, Big Oil has been making record profits........ I mean hmmmm wonder why that is. Couldn't be they reduced refining capacity by almost 1,000,000 barrels a day by shutting down refineries between 1995-2001.

If oil companies were making the same profits they were in the mid 90's what would the cost of gasoline be at the pump?

Lets not even mention during these times when the oil companies were shutting down refining capacity, the big players were buying up all of their competition. The same thing that has happened to the banking industry that has set up the "we can't let them fail banks"

I saw a great graph on how over the past 30 years about 50 major national banks had basically been consolidated into 4 over time.

The same thing has happened to oil companies. Buy up all of the competition, shut down refining, make record profits = we pay 3.50 a gallon, even though in truth supply and demand has not changed so drastically. Even with the shut down of those refineries this country is still able to meet its demand needs for gasoline.

Beetle, supply and demand affects the price of every product in the absence of a monopoly or strong cartel and neither of those conditions exist in the case of oil, gas, or coal. Our standard of living is dropping and gasoline prices are staying high in part because our own government has been actively devaluing the dollar.

The demand for gasoline in this country is nowhere near what it would be in a healthy economy but many other countries have been experiencing a healthy recovery from the global recession. That is why this country is exporting more gasoline than it is importing.

I remember what happened to companies that fell for the lies during the Carter administration that gasoline prices were soaring and would remain high because we were running out of oil. The big oil companies gobbled up coal companies, synthetic fuel plants were built, and companies began leasing rights to extract oil shale. Then Reagan took office, cut taxes, and deregulated domestic oil production, and gasoline prices plummeted. The companies that invested in the "alternative fuel" technologies of that time were left holding the bag and making excuses to their shareholders for being so gullible.

As they say, those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. You are falling for the same liberal lies that suckered so many people into excusing the catastrophic government energy policies of the 1970s.

[Beetle01]

Hoot, Im never going to believe that opening up other drilling places (something I support BTW) is going to affect gas prices.

IF you don't think the few oil companies that remain don't have a monopoly on the American market, then this isn't going to go anywhere. Hell, one of my good friends fathers was Senior Vice President of Refining for one of the big oil companies until 2010. I have had long discussions about these things with him. IT IS a monopoly.

This is why these remaining oil companies went around buying up all the competition until there were only a few left, cut production, and started quadrupling profits. There were no competitors to counter this and put them out of business. Once they had a stranglehold they could make enough gas to meet the country's demand, but use the excuse of the production cuts to jack up prices, even though supply was meeting demand. They took full advantage of Wall St. and I wouldnt be surprised if they played a large role in it themselves.