[RunItUpTheGut]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/05/opinion/ob...?hpt=hp_t2

I am sorry, but this is not what America needs. We are losing freedom more and more everyday.

Editor's note: Dean Obeidallah is a comedian who has appeared on Comedy Central's "Axis of Evil" special, ABC's "The View," CNN's "What the Week" and HLN's "The Joy Behar Show." He is executive producer of the annual New York Arab-American Comedy Festival and the Amman Stand Up Comedy Festival. Follow him on Twitter.

A column by a comedian, really?

Plainly put, Rick Santorum wants to convert our current legal system into one that requires our laws to be in agreement with religious law, not unlike what the Taliban want to do in Afghanistan.

I quit reading when he tried to compare Christianity to radical taliban realigous beliefs, in the second paragraph.

[Amun-Ra]

That don't change the jist of what Santorum believes. And he is not comapring Christianity to the Taliban. He is comparing one group trying to impose religious law in one country to a guy wanting to impose his relgious views in the laws of another country.

Here is another tid bit from Santorum.

[nky]

Wasn't this country build on Judeo-Christian believes?

[TheRealVille]

Wasn't this country build on Judeo-Christian believes?

No

[nky]

[INDENT]"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..."
[/INDENT]

[nky]

Our Founding Fathers separated church from state, but did not separate God from state; they acknowledged God as the source of our rights
Thomas Jefferson wrote:
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" He also wrote: "Almighty God hath created the mind free. ... All attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens...are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion..."

[nky]

President George Washington said this when proclaiming our National Thanksgiving Holiday:
[INDENT]"It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God ...."
[/INDENT]

[nky]

Alexis de Tocqueville observed of 19th century Americans, “The Americans combine the notions of religion and liberty so intimately in their minds that it is impossible to make them conceive of one without the other.”

[LWC]

^Thank you nky.

[TheRealThing]

Obama's term may be one of the worst our country has had to endure, yes. It is not entirely his fault. The entire time he has been in office, the Republicans in Congress have made it their sole purpose to make him fail. McConnell has said this publicly that that is their number one goal, to beat Obama, not fix our country.
Now back to Santorum. He is seriously out of touch with our society and the world. This is 2012 not 1900.

This (bolded) is what causes me such great concern. We wouldn't need to fix our country if the present administration hadn't spent so much time and effort to screw things up when they came to power. Example, present administration recent events have featured the illegal appointment of Richard Cordray to head up the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. The ANNOUNCEMENT to make the ill advised, congressional power usurping maneuver, was made only two days ago on Wednesday. In the two days since the announcement 700 appointments have been made to the bureau. That is unfathomable!

The afore mentioned CFPB called for by the DODD-FRANK Wall Street Reform Act, has been decried by all but the most staunch of the Kyenesian Kooks, as the spear head of the recent flood of job killing legislation and subsequent regulation.


I realize no administration is perfect but, am I the only one who remembers the promise made at the outset of this one? "We are only five days away from fundamentally transforming the face of America" Here is one of the minor side car issues which will come from over regulation soon to be felt at the personal level. Has anyone else seen the little plug in monitors progressive car insurance is pushing? I predict one of those will be in every car in America before it's over. If one were to run a stop sign or speed on the interstate I will bet his insurance premiums will go up or maybe a speeding ticket would follow. To see how our freedoms are coming under attack one only needs to lift up his head and open his eyes.

My question, why was it neccessary to reject America as it was? The American dream was still attainable, the birds still sang and we were a soverign and free people. In fact we led the free world, and had for many years. What has happened since this transformation started? Our credit has been downgraded for the first time ever. Third world countries push us around lke we are timid has beens. Our military is being gutted to fund entitlements. More people are out of work and the welfare rolls have swelled to untenable levels. We more resemble a socialist society with the ruthlessly imposed Obama care hanging over the head of every profitable citizen of this country. The congress is deadlocked as folks of character try to stand their ground against the onslaught of those who seek to errode the freedoms guaranteed by the US Constitution, while the main stream press is engaged in a propaganda campaign unparalleled in scope for any time in recorded history in support.

How can any rational voter give 4 more years to these guys?

[TheRealVille]

God takes in a lot of ground when talking about the founding fathers, nky. Thet believed in different gods. God is apretty general term. It doesn't necessarily mean the Christian God.

[TheRealThing]

Wasn't this country build on Judeo-Christian believes?

All reasonable people know America was founded on Christian principles. They are the basis of our constitution, our laws and how we interpret and enforce our laws.

[nky]

:biggrin:

God takes in a lot of ground when talking about the founding fathers, nky. Thet believed in different gods. God is apretty general term. It doesn't necessarily mean the Christian God.

What were they Hindu?:biggrin:

Most were some form/level of Christian. Some weren't regular Bible thumping Christians, some were Deist believing in some supreme being, but the basic laws/principles/liberties of our country were Judeo-Christian. They just didn't want an "official" government run/dictated religion like the absolute monarchs in Europe had.

[Bob Seger]

God takes in a lot of ground when talking about the founding fathers, nky. Thet believed in different gods. God is apretty general term. It doesn't necessarily mean the Christian God.

1) As you walk up the stairs to the building which houses the US Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view....It is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments. Sounds like we are talking about the the Christian faith here to me.


2) As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door. Sounds Christain here.


3) As you sit inside the courtroom , you can see the wall, right above where the Supreme Court Judges sit, a display of the Ten Commandments. Sounds Christian to me.


4) There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C. That sounds Christian to me.


5) James Madison , the 4th President, also known as the "Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement: "We have staked the whole of all our political Institutions upon the capacity of mankind for Self Government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commanments of God". Doesn't that sound like Christian intent?

6) Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher, whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777. Again Christian.


7) 52 of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members of the established Orthodox churches in the colonies. The other 3 were members of the Realville Church of What's Happenin Now.:biggrin: just kidding.

Just a few more examples to dispell your theory.

[LWC]

^Pretty cool.

Now Atheists/Agnostics will find your list and begin trying to take them down

[TheRealThing]

1) As you walk up the stairs to the building which houses the US Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view....It is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments. Sounds like we are talking about the the Christian faith here to me.


2) As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door. Sounds Christain here.


3) As you sit inside the courtroom , you can see the wall, right above where the Supreme Court Judges sit, a display of the Ten Commandments. Sounds Christian to me.


4) There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C. That sounds Christian to me.


5) James Madison , the 4th President, also known as the "Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement: "We have staked the whole of all our political Institutions upon the capacity of mankind for Self Government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commanments of God". Doesn't that sound like Christian intent?

6) Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher, whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777. Again Christian.


7) 52 of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members of the established Orthodox churches in the colonies. The other 3 were members of the Realville Church of What's Happenin Now.:biggrin: just kidding.

Just a few more examples to dispell your theory.

All very good points. The ultra-left are trying their best to figure out how to force the removal of any references to God and our heritage of allegiance to Him, from places such as the ones you have cited here. Since they have been successful in their quest to eliminate plausible support for the existence of God from the US classroom, they have now turned their sights on national landmarks, monuments, and federal buildings such as the supreme court, en total plenitud. This would include the effort to have any reference to God removed from our currency. "In God We Trust"--- still.

The effort and expense being expended to uneducate the common American with regard to our heritage is tremendous. And, rises to the level of hatred the Godless of our land have for those who believe the truth. They, using the myth known as seperation of church and state, as an all encompassing trump card, with which to level a seemingly justifiable assault on the fabric of our land. Have used our own innocence to create a state of rebellion, for nothing more than the sake of rebellion. What a military affront from without could never do, the liberal's fifth column assault via our own court system is managing to accomplish day by day. Like the unholy and inhuman practice of cutting away pieces of an unborn innocent from within the sanctity of a mother's womb, until nothing but the blood soaked pile of flesh and bone that what was once a human being remains to be incinerated. The same crowd overturns, and usurps the laws of our land which have stood for hundreds of years. And what can the common man do in a case like this? Look past party lines and see the truth. America is being attacked from within, vote the haters out.

[TheRealVille]

All very good points. The ultra-left are trying their best to figure out how to force the removal of any references to God and our heritage of allegiance to Him, from places such as the ones you have cited here. Since they have been successful in their quest to eliminate plausible support for the existence of God from the US classroom, they have now turned their sights on national landmarks, monuments, and federal buildings such as the supreme court, en total plenitud. This would include the effort to have any reference to God removed from our currency. "In God We Trust"--- still.

The effort and expense being expended to uneducate the common American with regard to our heritage is tremendous. And, rises to the level of hatred the Godless of our land have for those who believe the truth. They, using the myth known as seperation of church and state, as an all encompassing trump card, with which to level a seemingly justifiable assault on the fabric of our land. Have used our own innocence to create a state of rebellion, for nothing more than the sake of rebellion. What a military affront from without could never do, the liberal's fifth column assault via our own court system is managing to accomplish day by day. Like the unholy and inhuman practice of cutting away pieces of an unborn innocent from within the sanctity of a mother's womb, until nothing but the blood soaked pile of flesh and bone that what was once a human being remains to be incinerated. The same crowd overturns, and usurps the laws of our land which have stood for hundreds of years. And what can the common man do in a case like this? Look past party lines and see the truth. America is being attacked from within, vote the haters out.

As stated before, you are all for separation of church and state as long as it's one sided, where the state stays out of church business.

[TheRealThing]

As stated before, you are all for separation of church and state as long as it's one sided, where the state stays out of church business.

You may finally be getting the point, after all, that is what Jefferson was saying in his letter to the Danbury Baptists. BTW, is it just me or is it ironic you would need to cite an instance of one of our most profoundly influential founding fathers referring to his religious commonality as shared with his BAPTIST breatheren of Danbury, to demonstrate what you consider to be proof of the doctrine of seperation of church and state. Allow me to once again post the excerpt of the famous letter on which the whole of the liberal argument for the seperation of church and state is based.

Thomas Jefferson

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church and State".

The clear meaning of Jefferson's statement is to support his position that the church is to be protected from the state, not the reverse. Additionally, to say that the founding fathers were not religious and that America is not founded on Christian principles is simply not supported by the documentation of the era. You can say it isn't so all you want, you can't support your position by any thing other than the case I have cited on here several times. The ACLU, a known enemy of the church, sued the State of New Jersey in the court action of 1947, Everson versus Board of Education of Ewing Township. This notion that religion merits no mention by any government official or agency is 100% the brain child of ACLU lawyer Leo Pfeffer. We sailed along from July 4th, 1776 until 1947 before we started to purge everything mentioning God out of government. Erroneous decision upon erroneous decision handed down by the courts built on one misinterpetation of a phrase in a personal LETTER,, written by Thomas Jefferson. Who'd have thunk it?

I believe we are paying the price for figuratively shaking our fist at the Almighty as we watch the fabric of a once great nation unraveling before our eyes. I don't think it's too late but, it's time to put on the brakes. The harder America's national heart turns toward God, the worse things will get. It is undeniable that we find ourselves in a downward spiral in the late 20th and early 21st century. That spiral flattened somewhat during the Reagan years but, has escallated during the last few years. We are a nation founded on Christian principles who, having turned our backs on God, find ourselves in real trouble. It ain't rocket science!

[TheRealVille]

1) As you walk up the stairs to the building which houses the US Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view....It is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments. Sounds like we are talking about the the Christian faith here to me.


2) As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door. Sounds Christain here.


3) As you sit inside the courtroom , you can see the wall, right above where the Supreme Court Judges sit, a display of the Ten Commandments. Sounds Christian to me.


4) There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C. That sounds Christian to me.


5) James Madison , the 4th President, also known as the "Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement: "We have staked the whole of all our political Institutions upon the capacity of mankind for Self Government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commanments of God". Doesn't that sound like Christian intent?

6) Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher, whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777. Again Christian.


7) 52 of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members of the established Orthodox churches in the colonies. The other 3 were members of the Realville Church of What's Happenin Now.:biggrin: just kidding.

Just a few more examples to dispell your theory.

Where does article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli come into play then?

Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.

Article 1. There is a firm and perpetual peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary, made by the free consent of both parties, and guarantied by the most potent Dey and Regency of Algiers.

Art. 2. If any goods belonging to any nation with which either of the parties is at war, shall be loaded on board of vessels belonging to the other party, they shall pass free, and no attempt shall be made to take or detain them.

Art. 3. If any citizens , subjects, or effects, belonging to either party, shall be found on board a prize vessel taken from an enemy by the other party, such citizens or subjects shall be set at liberty, and the effects restored to the owners.

Art. 4. Proper passports are to be given to all vessels of both parties, by which they are to be known. And considering the distance between the two countries, eighteen months from the date of this treaty, shall be allowed for procuring such passports. During this interval the other papers, belonging to such vessels, shall be sufficient for their protection.

Art. 5. A citizen or subject of either party having bought a prize vessel, condemned by the other party, or by any other nation, the certificates of condemnation and bill of sale shall be a sufficient passport for such vessel for one year; this being a reasonable time for her to procure a proper passport.

Art. 6. Vessels of either party, putting into the ports of the other, and having need of provisions or other supplies, they shall be furnished at the market price. And if any such vessel shall so put in, from a disaster at sea, and have occasion to repair, she shall be at liberty to land and re-embark her cargo without paying any duties. But in case shall she be compelled to the land her cargo.

Art. 7. Should a vessel of either party be cast on the shore of the other, all proper assistance shall be given to her and her people; no pillage shall be allowed; the property shall remain at the disposition of the owners; and the crew protectedand succored till they can be sent to their country.

Art. 8. If a vessel of either party should be attacked by an enemy, within gun-shot of the forts of the other , she shall be defended as much as possible. If she be in port she shall not be seized on or attacked, when it is in the power of the other party to protect her. And when she proceeds to sea, no enemy shall be allowed to pursue her from the same port, within twenty-four hours after her departure.

Art. 9. The commerce between the United States and Tripoli; the protection to be given to merchants, masters of vessels, and seamen; the reciprocal right of the establishing Consuls in each country; and the privileges, immunities, and jurisdiction, to be on the same footing with those of the most favored nations respectively.

Art. 10. The money and presents demanded by the Bey of Tripoli, as a full and satisfactory consideration on his part, and on the part of his subjects, for this treaty of perpetual peace and friendship, are acknowledged to have been received by him previous to his signing the same, according to a receipt which is hereto annexed, except such as part as is promised, on the part of the United States, to be delivered and paid by them on the arrival of their Consul in Tripoli; of which part a note is likewise hereto annexed. And no pretense of any periodical tribute of further payments is ever to be made by either party.

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Art. 12. In case of any dispute, arising from a violation of any of the articles of this treaty, no appeal shall be made to arms; nor shall war be declared on any pretext whatever. But if the Consul, residing at the place where the dispute shall happen, shall not be able to settle the same, an amicable referrence shall be made to the mutual friend of the parties, the Dey of Algiers; the parties hereby engaging to abide by his decision. And he, by virtue of his signature to this treaty, engages for himself and successors to declare the justice of the case, according to the true interpretation of the treaty, and to use all the means in his power to enforce the observance of the same.

Signed and sealed at Tripoli of Barbary the 3d day of Junad in the year of the Hegira 1211— corresponding with the 4th day of November, 1796

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

[TheRealVille]

Additionally, to say that the founding fathers were not religious and that America is not founded on Christian principles is simply not supported by the documentation of the era. You can say it isn't so all you want, you can't support your position by any thing other than the case I have cited on here several times.

See my post above.

[TheRealThing]

^Your post above;


The GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES doesn't push any religion, even christianity. That would fall under the purview of the CHURCH. Hence, the "wall of seperatiion" envisioned by Jefferson who, by his own account, was a devoutly religious man. In other words, he can evangelize on a personal level but, the government cannot. The following are the first two sentacnces of The Declaration of Independence---


When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed


The federal government cannot be an advocate for the christian church by definition, I agree. But, that doesn't preclude the fact that we are ourselves governed by christian principles. Notice the reference to Natural Law or, the Laws of Nature above, here is what our founding fathers were talking about---

"Man ... must necessarily be subject to the laws of his Creator.. This will of his Maker is called the law of nature.... This law of nature...is of course superior to any other.... No human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this: and such of them as are valid derive all their force...from this original." - Sir William Blackstone (Eminent English Jurist)

The Founders DID NOT establish the Constitution for the purpose of granting rights. Rather, they established this government of laws (not a government of men) in order to secure each person's Creator* endowed rights to life, liberty, and property.

Only in America, did a nation's founders recognize that rights, though endowed by the Creator as unalienable prerogatives, would not be sustained in society unless they were protected under a code of law which was itself in harmony with a higher law. They called it "natural law," or "Nature's law." Such law is the ultimate source and established limit for all of man's laws and is intended to protect each of these natural rights for all of mankind. The Declaration of Independence of 1776 established the premise that in America a people might assume the station "to which the laws of Nature and Nature's God entitle them.."

Herein lay the security for men's individual rights - an immut*able code of law, sanctioned by the Creator of man's rights, and designed to promote, preserve, and protect him and his fellows in the enjoyment of their rights. They believed that such natural law, revealed to man through his reason, was capable of being understood by both the ploughman and the professor. Sir William Blackstone, whose writings trained American's lawyers for its first century, capsulized such reasoning:


"For as God, when he created matter, and endued it with a principle of mobility, established certain rules for the...direction of that motion; so, when he created man, and endued him with freewill to conduct himself in all parts of life, he laid down certain immutable laws of human nature, whereby that freewill is in some degree regulated and restrained, and gave him also the faculty of reason to discover the purport of those laws."

What are those natural laws? Blackstone continued:


"Such among others are these principles: that we should live honestly, should hurt nobody, and should render to every one his due.."

The Founders saw these as moral duties between individuals. Thomas Jefferson wrote:


"Man has been subjected by his Creator to the moral law, of which his feelings, or conscience as it is sometimes called, are the evidence with which his Creator has furnished him .... The moral duties which exist between individual and individual in a state of nature, accompany them into a state of society . their Maker not having released them from those duties on their forming themselves into a nation."

Americas leaders of 1787 had studied Cicero, Polybius, Coke, Locke, Montesquieu, and Blackstone, among others, as well as the history of the rise and fall of governments, and they recognized these underlying principles of law as those of the Decalogue, the Golden Rule, and the deepest thought of the ages.

An example of the harmony of natural law and natural rights is Blackstone's "that we should live honestly" - otherwise known as "thou shalt not steal" - whose corresponding natural right is that of individual freedom to acquire and own, through honest initiative, private property. In the Founders' view, this law and this right were inalterable and of a higher order than any written law of man. Thus, the Constitution confirmed the law and secured the right and bound both individuals and their representatives in government to a moral code which did not permit either to take the earnings of another without his consent. Under this code, individuals could not band together and do, through government's coercive power, that which was not lawful between individuals.

America's Constitution is the culmination of the best reasoning of men of all time and is based on the most profound and beneficial values mankind has been able to fathom. It is, as William E. Gladstone observed, "The Most Wonderful Work Ever Struck Off At A Given Time By the Brain And Purpose Of Man."

We should dedicate ourselves to rediscovering and preserving an understanding of our Constitution's basis in natural law for the protec*tion of natural rights - principles which have provided American citizens with more protection for individual rights, while guaranteeing more freedom, than any people on earth.


"The end of law is not to abolish or restrain, but to preserve and enlarge freedom." -John Locke

LINK--- http://www.nccs.net/articles/ril17.html

These are the convictions shared by the men of that era. Apart from that, however, even if all we had as proof were the first two sentences of the Declaration of Independence, no one of reason can make legitimate claim that America was not founded on christian principles.

[TheRealVille]

Ok, TRT. No matter what proof anybody shows you, you try to dispel it with long winded posts, and tons of opinion. You said there was no documentation of the era showing that we weren't a christian nation, I showed it, and it still isn't good enough for you. All the "Creator" terms in everything that is documented is very general. I have never argued that the founders didn't believe in God. You can say it's a Christian nation, governed by very general laws(commandments) on human rights that any society can come up with, but that doesn't make it so. :igiveup: You vote to try to keep Christ in government, and I'll vote to keep him out.

[Bob Seger]

Ok, TRT. No matter what proof anybody shows you, you try to dispel it with long winded posts, and tons of opinion. You said there was no documentation of the era showing that we weren't a christian nation, I showed it, and it still isn't good enough for you. All the "Creator" terms in everything that is documented is very general. I have never argued that the founders didn't believe in God. You can say it's a Christian nation, governed by very general laws(commandments) on human rights that any society can come up with, but that doesn't make it so. :igiveup: You vote to try to keep Christ in government, and I'll vote to keep him out.

Why do you think that the 10 Commandments is plastered all over the Supreme Court building, not only on the outside of the building, but all over the inside of the judges chambers and in various places throughout the entire building, that I described of earlier?

[TheRealVille]

^Your post above;


The GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES doesn't push any religion, even christianity. That would fall under the purview of the CHURCH. Hence, the "wall of seperatiion" envisioned by Jefferson who, by his own account, was a devoutly religious man. In other words, he can evangelize on a personal level but, the government cannot. The following are the first two sentacnces of The Declaration of Independence---

Not your religion though. He was more of a deist than anything.

Thomas Jefferson and religion
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Throughout his life Jefferson was intensely interested in theology, biblical study, and morality.[1] As the principal author of the United States Declaration of Independence, he articulated a statement about human rights that most Americans regard as nearly sacred. Together with James Madison, Jefferson carried on a long and successful campaign against state financial support of churches in Virginia.
The religious views of Thomas Jefferson diverged widely from the orthodox Christianity of his day. During his 1800 campaign for the presidency, he had to contend with critics who argued that he was unfit to hold office because he did not have orthodox religious beliefs. It is Jefferson who is credited with propagating the phrase "separation of church and state". He is most closely connected with the Episcopal Church, Unitarianism, and the religious philosophy of Deism.
He cut and pasted pieces of the New Testament together to compose the Jefferson Bible, which excluded any miracles by Jesus and stressed his moral message. Though he often expressed his opposition to clergy and to Christian doctrines, Jefferson repeatedly expressed his belief in a deistic god and his admiration for Jesus as a moral teacher. Opposed to Calvinism, Trinitarianism and what he identified as Platonic elements in Christianity, in private letters Jefferson refers to himself as "Christian" (1803),[2][3] "a sect by myself" (1819),[4] an "Epicurean" (1819),[5] a "Materialist" (1820),[6] and a "Unitarian by myself" (1825).[7] Historian Sydney Ahlstrom associated Jefferson with "rational religion or deism".[8]

In 1760, at age 16, Jefferson entered The College of William & Mary in Williamsburg, and for two years he studied mathematics, metaphysics, and philosophy under Professor William Small. He introduced the enthusiastic Jefferson to the writings of the British Empiricists, including John Locke, Francis Bacon, and Isaac Newton.[12] Jefferson biographers say that he was influenced by deist philosophy while at William & Mary, particularly by Bolingbroke.[13][14]
Terminology which Jefferson used in the Declaration of Independence, such as "Nature's God", is typical of Deism, but it was also used by contemporary non-Deist thinkers such as Francis Hutcheson (Presbyterian). In addition, it was part of Roman thinking about Natural law, and Jefferson was influenced by reading Cicero on this topic.[15][16] The medieval philosopher St. Thomas Aquinas (Catholic) used similar terminology when referring to natural law in his writings.[citation needed]
Most deists denied the Christian concepts of miracles and the Trinity. Though he had a lifelong esteem for Jesus' moral teachings, Jefferson did not believe in miracles, nor in the divinity of Jesus. In a letter to deRieux in 1788, he declined a request to act as a godfather, saying he had been unable to accept the doctrine of the Trinity "from a very early part of my life."[10][17]
Jefferson was directly linked to deism in the writings of some of his contemporaries. Patrick Henry's widow wrote in 1799, "I wish the Grate Jefferson & all the Heroes of the Deistical party could have seen my... Husband pay his last debt to nature."[18][19]
While many biographers, as well as some of his contemporaries, have characterized Jefferson as a Deist, historians and scholars have not found any such self-identification in Jefferson's surviving writings. In an 1803 letter to Priestley, Jefferson praises Jesus for a form of deism. [20] He expressed similar ideas in an 1817 letter to John Adams.[21]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jeff...d_religion

[TheRealVille]

When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.[1]
In the "Declaration of Independence," the founding document of what would become the United States, Thomas Jefferson mentions "nature's God." Unfortunately, this phrase is unclear. The religious beliefs of Jefferson were much debated in his time and still are over two centuries later. Through the letters and other writings of Jefferson, it is possible to construct an outline of his beliefs. Although he supported the moral teachings of Jesus, Jefferson believed in a creator similar to the God of deism. In the tradition of deism, Jefferson based his God on reason and rejected revealed religion.

Jefferson's parents reared him in the Episcopal Church. Although there is no known record of him being baptized, it is almost certain that an Anglican clergyman baptized him. Records show that both Thomas Jefferson and his father Peter were elected vestrymen. These positions, however, merely reflected the Jeffersons' social status; they were both land-owning and educated men. The positions were given "with small regard to their personal convictions or even their way of life."[2]

That Jefferson participated in the administration of the parish does not reflect his specific beliefs. Despite his social and familial ties to the Episcopal Church, Jefferson came to disbelieve its creeds and rejected most Christian doctrine. In his book The Religion of Thomas Jefferson, Henry Foote says that Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Jesus but he viewed him as a "human teacher."[3] He believed only what his reason allowed: "His knowledge of science led him to reject all miracles, including the virgin birth and the bodily resurrection of Jesus."[4] By the time he was a young adult, Jefferson had developed his own religious views outside the framework of any sect.

Jefferson believed that the various sects of Christianity had corrupted the original message of Jesus: "They [the teachings of Jesus] have been still more disfigured by the corruptions of schismatizing followers, who have found an interest in sophisticating and perverting the simple doctrines he taught."[5] However, Jefferson did believe that the teachings of Jesus had some merit.

Jefferson felt that religion was a deeply private matter. People did not need to proclaim their beliefs: "I never told my own religion nor scrutinized that of another. I never attempted to make a convert, nor wish to change another's creed."[6] Jefferson saw religion as private and therefore found priests unnecessary. He wrote in the same letter "I have ever thought religion a concern purely between our God and our consciences for which we were accountable to him, and not to the priests."[7] He only spoke about his own religious beliefs when he was asked to, and only in his private letters did he speak clearly of his beliefs.

Without supporting revealed religion, Jefferson subscribed to the moral teachings of Jesus. He stated this belief explicitly in a letter to John Adams in which he wrote that the moral code of Jesus was "the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man."[8] Jefferson even made a collection of Jesus' moral teachings from the Bible which seemed to be in their original simplicity. He used this collection as an ethical guide to his own life.

Jefferson's God was the source of moral values. In a letter to his nephew Peter Carr, he wrote that "He who made us would have been a pitiful bungler, if He had made the rules of our moral conduct a matter of science."[9] Rather, God made man "with a sense of right and wrong."[10] People were responsible for their actions on earth and would be rewarded or punished in some kind of afterlife.

More important than beliefs to Jefferson was the way people lived their lives. "I have ever judged the religion of others by their lives . . . for it is in our lives and not from our words, that our religion must be read."[11] In a letter to Adams, Jefferson concluded about religion: "the result of your 50 or 60 years of religious reading, in four words 'be just and good' is that in which all our inquiries must end."[12] This emphasis on behavior over belief was at the core of Jefferson's creed, although he did think that morality was connected to belief in God.

Jefferson based his belief in God on reason. In a letter to John Adams, Jefferson wrote that he believed in God because of the argument from design:

I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the Universe, in it's [sic] parts general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite power in every atom of it's [sic] composition. . . it is impossible, I say, for the human mind not to believe that there is . . . a fabricator of all things.[13]
After applying his faculty of reason, in which he placed much faith, Jefferson found that he had to believe in a creator.

Jefferson believed most aspects of the creator could not be known. He rejected revealed religion because revealed religion suggests a violation of the laws of nature. For revelation or any miracle to occur, the laws of nature would necessarily be broken. Jefferson did not accept this violation of natural laws. He attributed to God only such qualities as reason suggested. "He described God as perfect and good, but otherwise did not attempt an analysis of the nature of God."[14] Also in a letter to Adams, Jefferson said, "Of the nature of this being [God] we know nothing."[15]

Although Jefferson never gave a label to his set of beliefs, they are consistent with the ideas of deism, a general religious orientation developed during the Enlightenment. Jefferson, being a non-sectarian, did not subordinate his beliefs to any label. He once said, "I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion...or in anything else."[16]

Deism was not actually a formal religion, but rather was a label used loosely to describe certain religious views. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word deist was used negatively during Jefferson's lifetime.[17] The label was often applied to freethinkers like Jefferson as a slander rather than as a precise description. Thus the deist label is not highly specific. Deists were characterized by a belief in God as a creator and "believed only those Christian doctrines that could meet the test of reason."[18] Deists did not believe in miracles, revealed religion, the authority of the clergy, or the divinity of Jesus. Like Jefferson they "regarded ethics, not faith, as the essence of religion."[19]

"Nature's God" was clearly the God of deism in all important ways. That Jefferson included God in the "Declaration of Independence" is very significant because it helped lay the foundation for a civil religion in America. Paul Johnson addressed the civil religion begun by the founders in his article, "The Almost-Chosen People,"[20] saying that the United States was unique because all religious beliefs were respected. People were more concerned with "moral conduct rather than dogma." So Jefferson helped create a society in which different religions could coexist peacefully because of the emphasis on morality over specific belief.[21]

http://history.hanover.edu/hhr/hhr93_1.html


BTW, you highlight "Nature's God" as a badge of honor to prove your point, but it actually proves mine. Nature's God is a deistic term.

[TheRealVille]

1) As you walk up the stairs to the building which houses the US Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view....It is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments. Sounds like we are talking about the the Christian faith here to me.


2) As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door. Sounds Christain here.

3) As you sit inside the courtroom , you can see the wall, right above where the Supreme Court Judges sit, a display of the Ten Commandments. Sounds Christian to me.


4) There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C. That sounds Christian to me.


5) James Madison , the 4th President, also known as the "Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement: "We have staked the whole of all our political Institutions upon the capacity of mankind for Self Government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commanments of God". Doesn't that sound like Christian intent?

6) Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher, whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777. Again Christian.


7) 52 of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members of the established Orthodox churches in the colonies. The other 3 were members of the Realville Church of What's Happenin Now.:biggrin: just kidding.

Just a few more examples to dispell your theory.

Snopes is your friend, Bob. At least be original, don't post an email that is widely distributed. At least you were smart enough to take out the line that says the Supreme Court building is housed in the Capital building. As far as Moses, he is simply depicted as a lawgiver.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp

[TheRealVille]

Why do you think that the 10 Commandments is plastered all over the Supreme Court building, not only on the outside of the building, but all over the inside of the judges chambers and in various places throughout the entire building, that I described of earlier?

As stated in the post above, it is a depiction of Moses as a lawgiver, and the commandments as merely a depiction of law. Confucius and Solon are also there.

Where do Moses and the 10 Commandments appear in the Supreme Court building?

Research by Jim Allision. Writing by Tom Peters.
This document will look at the three topics: (1) unquestioned representations of Moses and/or the 10 Commandments, (2) a questionable representation of the 10 Commandments, and (3) important architecture in which Moses and the 10 Commandments are omitted.
Unquestioned representations of Moses and/or the 10 Commandments:

Moses and/or the 10 Commandments appear three times in the architectural embellishment of the Supreme Court building. Two of these representations depict Moses as simply one of several important lawgivers; these representations tend to disprove the idea that the 10 Commandments have some special relationship to American law. The third instance has the Commandments as one of two artistic adornments on a set of doors.
Justice the Guardian of Liberty. This sculpture is a frieze located above the East (back) entrance to the Supreme Court building. Moses (holding blank tablets) is depicted as one of trio of three Eastern law givers (Confucius, Solon, and Moses). The trio is surrounded by a variety of allegorical figures representing legal themes. The artist, Herman MacNeil, described his intentions in creating the sculpture as follows:

Law as an element of civilization was normally and naturally derived or inherited in this country from former civilizations. The "Eastern Pediment" of the Supreme Court Building suggests therefore the treatment of such fundamental laws and precepts as are derived from the East. Moses, Confucius and Solon are chosen as representing three great civilizations and form the central group of this Pediment (Descriptions of the Friezes in the Courtroom of the Supreme Court of the United States and of the East and West Pediments of the Building Exterior, p. 9).
Nothing in MacNeil's description, in other words, suggests any special connection between American law and the 10 Commandments. Moses is simply one of three important lawgivers from the East.

The South Courtroom Frieze. The Courtroom friezes were designed by sculptor Adolph Weinman. These friezes are located well above the courtroom bench, on all four walls. The South and North wall friezes form a group that depicts a procession of 18 important lawgivers: Menes, Hammurabi, Moses, Solomon, Lycurgus, Solon, Draco, Confucius, Augustus, Justinian, Mohammed, Charlemagne, King John, St. Louis, Hugo Grotius, William Blackstone, John Marshall, and Napoleon. Moses is holding blank tablets. The Moses figure is no larger or more important than any other lawgiver. Again, there is nothing here to suggest and special connection between the 10 Commandments and American law.

The Curator's office makes the following comments on Weinman's North and South frieze sculptures:

Weinman's training emphasized a correlation between the sculptural subject and the function of the building and, because of this, Gilbert relied on him to choose the subjects and figures that best reflected the function of the Supreme Court building. Faithful to classical sources, Weinman designed for the Courtroom friezes a procession of "great lawgivers of history," from many civilizations, to portray the development of secular law (p. 2, emphasis ours).
The Oak Courtroom Doors. The oak doors separating the courtroom from the central hallway of the Supreme Court building contain a representation of tablets bearing the Roman numerals one through ten; the Commandments themselves are not written out. The tablets depiction is located on the inside bottom of the doors. A second artistic embellishment (a circle with engraved woodwork) is located at eye-level on the inside of the doors. Click here for a close-up of the tablet depiction. Click here for a picture of the entire door (the tablet depiction is the bottom circle).

It's interesting to note that the engraved circle embellishment is placed at eye level, while the 10 Commandment depiction is placed toward the bottom of the door in an out-of-the-way position. The Commandments are, of course, a perfectly logical artistic embellishment for a court of law but, given its placement, it doesn't appear that the artist has any special regard for the Commandments. Additionally, we note that the oak doors seem to be of little consequence as artistic creations. A search of the University of Louisville library turned up a number of books that discuss the architecture of the Supreme Court, and while all of them discuss the two pieces mentioned above, none of them mention the doors. It does not appear, in other words, that the doors are regarded very highly by scholars of art.

http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/arg8a.htm

[TheRealVille]

Why do you think that the 10 Commandments is plastered all over the Supreme Court building, not only on the outside of the building, but all over the inside of the judges chambers and in various places throughout the entire building, that I described of earlier?

To add to my previous post: What do you make of all the other lawgivers(18 total, including Moses) that are beside of Moses? Menes, Hammurabi, Moses, Solomon, Lycurgus, Solon, Draco, Confucius, Augustus, Justinian, Mohammed, Charlemagne, King John, St. Louis, Hugo Grotius, William Blackstone, John Marshall, and Napoleon? Using a play on your words: not very Christian sounding.

[vundy33]

Why can't you guys just give up on the whole Christian nation thing? Religion and country mixed together is a bad thing, all you have to do to see that is open a history book. And being any kind of religion's nation opens the door for that country to take sides when it comes to religion...it's just not smart.