[Matman]

When looked at on a International level China's numbers are great. However when looked at on a domestic level they seem to have a long way to go. They lack infrastructure and still have high rates of poverty and unemployment. I am just curious what peoples thoughts are. Also if they are a super power destined for global domination who is responsible for their rise. Is it Nixon for opening the door. Was it Clinton for his lobbying for China to be granted WTO membership? Can it be blamed on greeding consumers and Wal-Mart for the damanding low prices at all cost?

[Hoot Gibson]

When looked at on a International level China's numbers are great. However when looked at on a domestic level they seem to have a long way to go. They lack infrastructure and still have high rates of poverty and unemployment. I am just curious what peoples thoughts are. Also if they are a super power destined for global domination who is responsible for their rise. Is it Nixon for opening the door. Was it Clinton for his lobbying for China to be granted WTO membership? Can it be blamed on greeding consumers and Wal-Mart for the damanding low prices at all cost?

Yes, China is much more of a global superpower than Americans realize. If they are not already capable of sinking our aircraft carriers with hypersonic missiles, then they soon will be. When that time comes, our naval superiority in the western Pacific will become history. Not only will that place Taiwan in great danger, it will also place Japan, South Korea, and other American allies in Asia in great peril.

As for China's domestic economy, the Soviet Union's people were very poor but that did not prevent their country from becoming a military superpower. China's people have never been better off than they are today, and while they have a long way to go to catch up with modern western countries in terms of living standards, their economy is growing at a mind boggling rate.

Who's to blame? The list is too long for a single post. In a nutshell, our politicians (both parties) and the people who elected them since the end of World War II are to blame. Complacency and arrogance are to blame. Our declining education system, which despite its decline continues to consume a growing portion of our nation's wealth is also to blame.

I attended a small wine tasting event last night (three to five people and the restaurant manager) at a restaurant in the building where I work. I normally avoid discussing politics here because I am usually the only conservative in the room - but I could no longer keep quiet when a Bulgarian physicist who works at the National Science Foundation blamed the sorry state of American education on too little spending on the Department of Education. The Bulgarian asked, "What are Republicans trying to do by cutting funding to the Dept. of Education, drop the US's rank in education from 37th to 57th in the world?"

I asked the Bulgarian, who was very liberal, if he believed that American schools have improved since the establishment of the Department of Education and finally told him that I believe that it should be abolished. I pointed out that our public schools spend far more money per pupil than any other developed nation. Like most liberals, he responded by saying that it had not improved but then explained that the reason it that more central control of curricula is needed to prevent schools in Alabama from teaching that evolution is a fairy tale.

However, I did agree with him that our education system has declined - and that decline has indirectly contributed to economic success in countries like China.

This country is still home to the top universities in the world but we are educating students from countries like China in large numbers and we allow very few of them to remain in this country after graduation. Manufacturing is not the only area where China and other Asian countries are catching up with the US. Their schools are much better than most Americans realize. I work with some outstanding Indian software developers who received all of their education in their home country. I am sure that China's newly found prosperity has enabled it to upgrade its university system as well.

The bottom line is that for a variety of reasons, American elected representatives have negotiated, signed, and ratified free trade agreements while passing legislation that has tied the hands of American companies trying to compete with companies operating in more business-friendly countries. That has enabled China to capture our markets and fund the rapid expansion of its military power. The fact that we are deeply in debt to China because of ridiculous deficit spending only adds to China's power.

[TheRealVille]

I attended a small wine tasting event last night (three to five people and the restaurant manager) at a restaurant in the building where I work.

I'm not smart enough on China's standing to comment on that, but please allow me to go off topic for just a second. Hoot, if you like good wine, I have a web address you might want to check out. My wife set me up for Christmas with a wine club membership from this place, and it is very good, at a good price. They send you 6 bottles, about every 2 months, of 89-91 point wines from small wineries around the country. They range from 12 to 15 bucks a bottle. At times, they will even send a bottle that is imported, if it meets their taste standards. She has me in the "American Cellars" one. I haven't tasted a bad bottle yet.

http://www.vinesse.com/

Sorry folks, back to your regularly scheduled program.

[Bob Seger]

When looked at on a International level China's numbers are great. However when looked at on a domestic level they seem to have a long way to go. They lack infrastructure and still have high rates of poverty and unemployment. I am just curious what peoples thoughts are. Also if they are a super power destined for global domination who is responsible for their rise. Is it Nixon for opening the door. Was it Clinton for his lobbying for China to be granted WTO membership? Can it be blamed on greeding consumers and Wal-Mart for the damanding low prices at all cost?

Have to run and dont have time to go into much detail right now, but here are a few.

1. Greedy trade unions
2. Greedy CEO's
3. NAFTA
4. Attorneys (The Eric C. Conns of the world, plus the ambulance chaser breed)
5. The EPA
6. Liberal spending polititians
7. Short sighted investors in American companies with demands for outrageous short term returns in the stock market.
8. OPEC (see EPA, we could be energy self sustained)
9. Al Gore and his goofy band of goons. (haha)
10. The welfare system.


These are a just a few that readily come to mind. These are not all reasons that are directly responsible for China becoming a superpower, but all are related to contributing to the crumbling American way of life, while all do directly give cause for opening the door for China to emerge into the economic structure of America and the rest of the world. I am sure others can come up with several more reasons.

[Hoot Gibson]

I'm not smart enough on China's standing to comment on that, but please allow me to go off topic for just a second. Hoot, if you like good wine, I have a web address you might want to check out. My wife set me up for Christmas with a wine club membership from this place, and it is very good, at a good price. They send you 6 bottles, about every 2 months, of 89-91 point wines from small wineries around the country. They range from 12 to 15 bucks a bottle. At times, they will even send a bottle that is imported, if it meets their taste standards. She has me in the "American Cellars" one. I haven't tasted a bad bottle yet.

http://www.vinesse.com/

Sorry folks, back to your regularly scheduled program.

Thanks for the link, RV. I am not really a wine drinker. The only reason that I stopped at the wine tasting was that I have become friends with the restaurant manager, who is from Egypt. When I eat lunch away from my desk, he usually sits down and discusses politics with me for a few minutes. Other than that, I try to avoid talking politics here and I choose my words carefully when I discuss political issues with him.

My wife is visiting our kids in Kentucky, so I was picking up my dinner last night on my way to the train. The restaurant/bakery/gourmet shop is in the same building as my office and the manager hosts a wind tasting every Friday to help boost wine sales. Aside from those little sample cups, I rarely drink any alcoholic beverages, although a good margarita before a Mexican dinner is tough to turn down. I don't have any moral objections to the drinks, they just contain calories that don't need. :biggrin:

[Matman]

Hoot you remind me of another argument I have heard made. The amount of money China spends on military is nothing compared to our spending. However the amount they spend in China goes alot further than it does here in the US. They can get more for less. Our education budget is far greater than most countries that rank ahead of us as well. I wonder if the same can be said that other countries get more for less? However I personally believe that alot of us have become to dependant on teachers to teach our kids. I personally sit down with my kids everynight to help them with their homework. It makes me sad to think that some of the kids in their class do not get the same support at home.

[Real Badman]

I would consider China "the" super power now.

[Hoot Gibson]

Hoot you remind me of another argument I have heard made. The amount of money China spends on military is nothing compared to our spending. However the amount they spend in China goes alot further than it does here in the US. They can get more for less. Our education budget is far greater than most countries that rank ahead of us as well. I wonder if the same can be said that other countries get more for less? However I personally believe that alot of us have become to dependant on teachers to teach our kids. I personally sit down with my kids everynight to help them with their homework. It makes me sad to think that some of the kids in their class do not get the same support at home.

Like you are doing, my wife and I spent a lot of time sitting with our kids in the evening trying to make up for what they were not being taught in school. My children had some excellent teachers but they had a few real duds. It is very difficult to convince even your own children that although they may be making great grades and performing at the top of the class, their real competition will come from beyond our borders. As kids get older, it becomes even more difficult to convince them that getting good grades is not enough.

I used to attend a lot of academic competitions and I attended the Kentucky State MATHCOUNTS competitions two or three times. The degree to which students of Asian descent dominate those competitions, despite constituting a small minority of the student population is amazing. I attribute their success in math and science to the higher expectations of Asian-American parents and their involvement with their children's education.

My biggest problem with the American public school system is that it produces graduates (high school and college) who seem to believe that education ends when they get a diploma or a degree. In other words, young Americans emerge from our school systems thinking that their education is somebody else's responsibility - that in order to learn, somebody must be standing in front of a classroom teaching them.

In the IT field, it quickly becomes very obvious to people that if you do not assume personal responsibility for your own education, then your days of employment are numbered. That attitude should be common in all American workplaces but it is rare. I received a just-released computer software book this week. Three of my Indian co-workers and one South Korean have already borrowed the book. Several of them will be buying their own copy.

My fear is that Americans are so complacent and so many people see this country as the "lone remaining global superpower," that once China becomes a serious threat to our national security, it will be too late for us to begin keeping pace with their technological advances. Although the Chinese have stolen much of their technology, which has saved them a fortune, they are very capable of making their own advances.

The generations that preceded the Baby Boomers worked very hard to make this country the most powerful and prosperous nation in history and what is happening to this country today is hard to watch.

[Bob Seger]

You know I never really thought of the Chinese as being intellectually inferior to begin with. I had known that they invented gunpowder, the compass, and used the abacus many many years ago in an era that we would refer to as an ancient civilization. The Great Wall is nothing but an engineering marvel as well. The communist regime may have stifled a lot of advances in the last half century or so, but make no mistake the Chinese are a very intelligent nation of people. With a potential hundreds of million man army, they are no doubt a great threat even without some of the technology that we may currently possess. If it came down to an armed conflict one of these days, that may in fact weight the scales in their favor, even if they are not able to match our technology.

Here is a link that tells of a lot of other inventions that the Chinese are given credit for developing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions.

[Hoot Gibson]

You know I never really thought of the Chinese as being intellectually inferior to begin with. I had known that they invented gunpowder, the compass, and used the abacus many many years ago in an era that we would refer to as an ancient civilization. The Great Wall is nothing but an engineering marvel as well. The communist regime may have stifled a lot of advances in the last half century or so, but make no mistake the Chinese are a very intelligent nation of people. With a potential hundreds of million man army, they are no doubt a great threat even without some of the technology that we may currently possess. If it came down to an armed conflict one of these days, that may in fact weight the scales in their favor, even if they are not able to match our technology.

Here is a link that tells of a lot of other inventions that the Chinese are given credit for developing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions.

It's ironic how China is proving to the world how superior capitalism is to every other economic system that has ever existed, while our own government is saddling American companies with the yoke of socialism. If China had not decided to embrace capitalism to prop up its communist political system, it would never have become a world power.

I know that the Asians who reach our shores tend to be the "cream of the crop," but I have always been impressed with the work ethic and ingenuity of the Asians with whom I have worked over the years.

[Deathstar 80]

I've heard that we have better innovation here in the United States than in China. I would think this is because individuals in our country have more of an opportunity than any other country. By having around 300,000,000 people being given the opportunity to be successful, there's bound to be a few inventors.

If we can invent again like we have in the past, we can dominate the world market and help our nation to become even better.

[Hoot Gibson]

I've heard that we have better innovation here in the United States than in China. I would think this is because individuals in our country have more of an opportunity than any other country. By having around 300,000,000 people being given the opportunity to be successful, there's bound to be a few inventors.

If we can invent again like we have in the past, we can dominate the world market and help our nation to become even better.

We can't invent like we have in the past because our government has erected barriers that did not exist when most of the greatest American inventions were made. I think the ability to take risks and reap the profits from successful inventions is what has given this country its competitive edge in the past. We are no longer the freest country in the world.

I can remember many years ago when many people said that the Japanese people could only copy our technology but were incapable of coming up with their own inventions. How often do you hear people say that now? Today, the most advanced consumer electronic devices appear in Japan first. Many products sold in Japan are never even seen by American consumers.

Any nation whose government is willing to unleash capitalism the way that China has done will see its economy boom and will make its own share of advances in technology. China has given itself a jump start by stealing American technology for many years and its quality control is nowhere near those of Japan or the US but it will reach parity with us if its government does not shackle its economy again.

[Bob Seger]

We can't invent like we have in the past because our government has erected barriers that did not exist when most of the greatest American inventions were made. I think the ability to take risks and reap the profits from successful inventions is what has given this country its competitive edge in the past. We are no longer the freest country in the world.

I can remember many years ago when many people said that the Japanese people could only copy our technology but were incapable of coming up with their own inventions. How often do you hear people say that now? Today, the most advanced consumer electronic devices appear in Japan first. Many products sold in Japan are never even seen by American consumers.

Any nation whose government is willing to unleash capitalism the way that China has done will see its economy boom and will make its own share of advances in technology. China has given itself a jump start by stealing American technology for many years and its quality control is nowhere near those of Japan or the US but it will reach parity with us if its government does not shackle its economy again.

Basicly that was my meaning with some of the 10 items I listed in post #4. The government and it's agencies(EPA, etc.), along with both greedy labor and management, shortsighted investor financial epectations, frivoulous lawsuits, and laws bolstered and sponsored by self benefied attorney/legislators, ingenity or potential ingenuity is being stangleheld in this country. There is a huge liability in even attempting to be innovative or to initiate developed innovation , so much that many are not even willing to attempt it.

Lets also not forget that the Chinese basicly use sweatshop labor as well. We are obviously turning a blind eye, as consumers, to unfair labor practices as well.

[Hoot Gibson]

Basicly that was my meaning with some of the 10 items I listed in post #4. The government and it's agencies(EPA, etc.), along with both greedy labor and management, shortsighted investor financial epectations, frivoulous lawsuits, and laws bolstered and sponsored by self benefied attorney/legislators, ingenity or potential ingenuity is being stangleheld in this country. There is a huge liability in even attempting to be innovative or to initiate developed innovation , so much that many are not even willing to attempt it.

Lets also not forget that the Chinese basicly use sweatshop labor as well. We are obviously turning a blind eye, as consumers, to unfair labor practices as well.

:Thumbs: I agree on all counts. I think the root of the problem is that most Americans just do not understand what made us the most prosperous country in the world. Big, intrusive governments are the enemy of innovation and prosperity, and we have a big, intrusive government. If we could figure out how to export lawyers to China, our worries would be over.

[nky]

Interesting editorial from 2007
http://tribune-democrat.com/editorials/x...r-with-U-S