The block in the back call is what Belfry opted for seeing as there were 2 different ones to choose from. The penalty for that was half the distance isn't it? AND, the time out was NOT called until the coach was on the field and had already been arguring with the ref's. Also, what's with the gentleman jumping out of the pressbox and over the fence to get onto the field when the players were trying to restrain their coach? Who was that masked man???? LOL......
oneijoe Wrote:This quite a difference between a "bad call" and misapplying the rules of the game. The official should have corrected his mistake once it was pointed out. The problem, of course, is if the ref didn't know how to apply the rule, there's no way to convince him of his error.
Yep there is a huge difference in a bad call and not marking the penalty from the right spot. Of course if Central does not commit a penalty so far behind the play, then we could have saved a bunch of space on this thread and talked about other aspects of the game.:biggrin: BTW, Lord knows I am not perfect, but they need to get a clock operator that stays in tune with each play. Not starting the clock multiple times is not acceptable.
Panther Thunder Wrote:Lol.
You liked that one PT??? HAHAHAHA.....:biggrin:
oneijoe Wrote:This quite a difference between a "bad call" and misapplying the rules of the game. The official should have corrected his mistake once it was pointed out. The problem, of course, is if the ref didn't know how to apply the rule, there's no way to convince him of his error.
Very true, but still a coach must not cross the line, because rather right or wrong once you show yourself to the ref they will throw a flag on you, because you're attempting to make them look bad.
I left assuming it was a bad spot, but a fan on here posted that they were a flag on the 19 as well as the hold. A lot of time with the mud and conditions a flag can go unnoticed, because I didn't see it. But IF that is true then things would make a lot more sense.
Also I've played in games before that a bad call influenced a game and I left saying we got cheated and my dad was quick to correct me. He would ask about the turnovers and the missed blocks and every mistake. The thing is you should never leave yourself in a position were a mistake by the ref could hurt your chances of winning. Because the official never fumbled a punt or turned it over four times in the first half, three times in second half if your Belfry.
Don't make things better, but its the way I always look at things because mistakes happen.
bucslover68 Wrote:The refs gave Chapman plenty of rope, and when three to four of his own players had to hold him back during the timeout, he hung himnself. BTW, it was not a forty yard mistake. The result of where the ball ended up being 40 yards difference from where Johnson had gotten to, the Hawk 45, but the mistake was about a 15 yard mistake. BTW, no one has said anything about the Hawks committing a penalty that had no effect on the play. No one should be holding anyone that far away from the action.
Uh huh... and no sensible official should be flagging a hold "that far away from the action" (unless flagrant) in the first place. Like I said, a 40 yd turnaround...
oneijoe Wrote:Uh huh... and no sensible official should be flagging a hold "that far away from the action" (unless flagrant) in the first place. Like I said, a 40 yd turnaround...
Disagree. If you commit a hold, it's still a hold, I don't care how far away from the action it occurs. There's a reason for all those rules in the rulebook...
You are probably right. Andy Griffith officiating should be the rule instead of Barney Fife officiating. BTW, there was not two fouls on the play to my knowledge. Only one signal was given by the refs and it was the hold call and then the yardage was marked off. There was never another signal indication a second foul that was declined. We even made the observation on the radio that they went way too far back(line of scrimmage) to mark the penalty off. The flag was thrown really late and in all fairness should have been picked up unless there was something totally flagrant or unsportsmanlike, which I did not see. Btw, this was in response to oneijoe's last post,
More Cowbell Wrote:Disagree. If you commit a hold, it's still a hold, I don't care how far away from the action it occurs. There's a reason for all those rules in the rulebook...
Agree! One flag was thrown basically straight up and landed up field.... I'm assuming THAT is where they wanted to have the ball marked off from? I also remember the "rule books" coming out of the pockets too.... IMHO, the coach is lucky he wasn't ejected!
bucslover68 Wrote:You are probably right. Andy Griffith officiating should be the rule instead of Barney Fife officiating. BTW, there was not two fouls on the play to my knowledge. Only one signal was given by the refs and it was the hold call and then the yardage was marked off. There was never another signal indication a second foul that was declined. We even made the observation on the radio that they went way too far back(line of scrimmage) to mark the penalty off. The flag was thrown really late and in all fairness should have been picked up unless there was something totally flagrant or unsportsmanlike, which I did not see.
I was actually sitting, well, you know where I was sitting and a couple of Pike Central's fans are who was complaining about there being 2 different calls on that one. The "block in the back" and the "hold" were both being discussed. They basically were throwing a fit over the "hold" call as that flag went out a little late.... ?????
More Cowbell Wrote:Disagree. If you commit a hold, it's still a hold, I don't care how far away from the action it occurs. There's a reason for all those rules in the rulebook...
Dude...there's holding somewhere on virtually every play. If every single one were called, games would last 6 hrs. and no points other than safeties would get scored.
bucslover68 Wrote:The flag was thrown really late and in all fairness should have been picked up unless there was something totally flagrant or unsportsmanlike, which I did not see. Btw, this was in response to oneijoe's last post,
I disagree, you see calls made in college and the NFL all the time where a hold or block in the back occurs nowhere near the play, but is still called. As it should be.
If you call the penalty regardless of whether it affects the play or not, then maybe the next time the offending player will think twice before holding again.
bucslover68 Wrote:You are probably right. Andy Griffith officiating should be the rule instead of Barney Fife officiating. BTW, there was not two fouls on the play to my knowledge. Only one signal was given by the refs and it was the hold call and then the yardage was marked off. There was never another signal indication a second foul that was declined. We even made the observation on the radio that they went way too far back(line of scrimmage) to mark the penalty off. The flag was thrown really late and in all fairness should have been picked up unless there was something totally flagrant or unsportsmanlike, which I did not see. Btw, this was in response to oneijoe's last post,
Thank you very much.
oneijoe Wrote:Dude...there's holding somewhere on virtually every play. If every single one were called, games would last 6 hrs. and no points other than safeties would get scored.
If refs started to call every single one, then maybe there would be alot less holding going on...
oneijoe Wrote:Dude...there's holding somewhere on virtually every play. If every single one were called, games would last 6 hrs. and no points other than safeties would get scored.
There is so much holding. Lesser teams have to do it to compete sometimes. I hope we never see a game where they call every holding call, because if we do then these games will be way past my bedtime.
More Cowbell Wrote:I disagree, you see calls made in college and the NFL all the time where a hold or block in the back occurs nowhere near the play, but is still called. As it should be.
If you call the penalty regardless of whether it affects the play or not, then maybe the next time the offending player will think twice before holding again.
I don't know what you're watching, but I've found it extremely RARE to see a hold called at those levels away from the ball during a run. A pass is different - as every pass rusher becomes directly involved in the play.
oneijoe Wrote:I don't know what you're watching, but I've found it extremely RARE to see a hold called at those levels away from the play during a run. A pass is different - as every pass rusher becomes directly involved in the play.
I see it called every Saturday and Sunday.
Really the only times you see these type of holds or blocks in the back called are on returns or big runs or passes in the open field. A lot of times players think their teammate needs "one more block", when in reality they don't.
oneijoe Wrote:I don't know what you're watching, but I've found it extremely RARE to see a hold called at those levels away from the ball during a run. A pass is different - as every pass rusher becomes directly involved in the play.
What if on a running play, the back breaks loose and gets downfield for a big gain, and the only defender that could have run him down was the guy being held? It's too subjective to say that the hold didn't matter at all, even if it did seem to be far away from the rest of the action.
More Cowbell Wrote:I disagree, you see calls made in college and the NFL all the time where a hold or block in the back occurs nowhere near the play, but is still called. As it should be.
If you call the penalty regardless of whether it affects the play or not, then maybe the next time the offending player will think twice before holding again.
The vast majority of the time, the offending player doesn't even realize he's doing it. A lot of it is a result of poor technique and/or fatigue.
Contrary to what you imply, there's few times "thought" is involved in the process at all.
More Cowbell Wrote:What if on a running play, the back breaks loose and gets downfield for a big gain, and the only defender that could have run him down was the guy being held? It's too subjective to say that the hold didn't matter at all, even if it did seem to be far away from the rest of the action.
That EXACT kind of situation is the reason behind many "late" flags...
oneijoe Wrote:The vast majority of the time, the offending player doesn't even realize he's doing it. A lot of it is a result of poor technique and/or fatigue.
Contrary to what you imply, there's few times "thought" is involved in the process at all.
You're right, the offending player probably doesn't realize what he's doing at the time of the hold. But if he gets flagged for it, I would hope that it would be a little reminder not to grab the next time.
oneijoe Wrote:The vast majority of the time, the offending player doesn't even realize he's doing it. A lot of it is a result of poor technique and/or fatigue.
Contrary to what you imply, there's few times "thought" is involved in the process at all.
That's the key...Proper technique and you always get away with it. But when you do it were the ref can see clearly you grabbing the jersey, then that is when they will get you on it every single time.
Any well coached individual is taught the proper way to hold very early in their playing career haha.
oneijoe Wrote:That EXACT kind of situation is the reason behind many "late" flags...
You can't expect the ref to do calculus in his head and figure out if the guy being held could have gotten to the runner and made a difference or not. Who would ever know that for sure?
Again, that's just too subjective. You have to make the call as you see it.
Belfry Wins Wrote:That's the key...Proper technique and you always get away with it. But when you do it were the ref can see clearly you grabbing the jersey, then that is when they will get you on it every single time.
Any well coached individual is taught the proper way to hold very early in their playing career haha.
BINGO. :Clap:
If a player uses poor technique and commits a blatant hold, then he deserves to get the penalty. When the hold is plain as day for everyone to see, the ref should throw the flag, whether it may have affected the play or not.
congrats pirates, time to get your heads on straight, sounds like the last to games didnt play to good, you guys do that this week, sc will beat you this year,get the number one seed...
wooderson Wrote:Around the start of the 4th Quarter I was worried and wondering if this coaching staff would ever understand how to beat the "10 in the box" defense. Worried because coaches with enough talent to run this defense will realize how easy it is to stop Belfry's offense. Then Lo and behold they (coaches) finally realize that running the Wildcat spreads the defense out allowing more room for the playmakes to be effective. Oh well, a very disappointing win (if thats possible) and a great effort and moral victory for the Hawks. This years Pirate team is no where near as talented as past teams and to be able to progress deep into the playoffs they will need to be more creative with the offense as well as being more disciplined on the line and finding SOMEONE that can kick an extra point.
Thomas Varney misses 3 extra points in muddy conditions in this one game and all of a sudden Belfry needs to find a place kicker... Anyone got his kicking stats from other games?
soccer fan Wrote:saywhatyouwant nothing changes the fact that belfry is no where near as good as what people thought you all have big heads for no reason!
So your Hawks got beat by a substandard Pirate team? Wow I was getting ready to congratulate PC on a hard fought game but since they didn't really beat a "Real" Belfry team... NVM.
hh: Show a little pride in your team and don't throw out bad comments to a team that just beat you on your home field.
P.S. Congrats to all PC on a hard fought game. You guys are on the brink of great things with that program... Keep on roll, and if you can stiffle people like this guy.:Thumbs:
15thRegionSlamaBamma Wrote:however your taking a biased look at it...You are forgetting to see the great field position it gives Belfry...I am not saying it gave Belfry the win but it did aid in it which you can not deny...Chapmas unsportmanlike call is sort of irrelevant at this point because he is in the right and I do not blame him and im sure the game tape will make its way to KHSAA...If Chapman does not get the Unsportsmanlike call it is still what 1st and 20 from the 10 oppose to first and 10 from the 25 because the flag was thrown at the 35...ummmmmmmmmmm yeah it makes a huge difference ALL AROUND...
You guys wanna talk about how many times the clock didn't start when it was in benefit of PC? The broadcast was even commenting on it.
raiderwave Wrote:The ref's r always have to big of a role in the outcome of ball games. Belfry is a great program and could have stopped pike central on that drive anyways, but it's not fair to those kids to call that flag in such a big moment in the game. Listen at that point u have to let the coach say what he needs to say and keep the hankie in the pocket. This could have came down to the wire, and would have been a huge win for Pike Central, but the ref's took that chance away. I think that you should have to be a former college football player in order to ref football games. Because in that district especially their some really horrible refs...Not saying they r the same every time, but I have seen a lot of familiar faces over there....
When you can't even jog down the sidelines as a ref to spot the ball, you should probably stop refing games...Pathetic....
Great Effort by both teams....Chapman with his team performance tonight, may have caught the interest of some athletes in that school...w
So the ref's should have ignored the holding penalty, which is what the original flag was, because it was such an important time in the game for PC. It's unfortunate that the penalty was marked off incorrectly, but the fact remains there still was a hold and if refs start picking and choosing when they call penalties and when they don't it'll be 10 times worse than what it already is. Now on to the unsportsmanlike conduct penalty. I don't know what the man said... and I'm willing to say none of you do either. I don't know this coach at all, with that said the ref made the decision that he crossed the line. The job of a coach is not just to win games, it's also to set examples for these young players, and to lash out in anger enough to draw a flag is not a very good example. In the end, sometimes you gotta hold back your anger for the greater good. If you told your boss exactly what you felt sometimes you probably wouldn't have a job for long... or at least I wouldn't.
PaintsvilleTigerfan Wrote:Why is it every time pike central gets beat that blame the officials. we beat them 2 years in a row and they refused to play us this year because they said we cheated them. admit you lost and use it as a building block for your program.
You lost to Allen Central :igiveup: