[thecavemaster]

Whtas wrong with Darwinism. Its not only the survival of the individually strong but sometimes the strongest groups. Strength can mean physical, mental or social. Those who can inspire people and make the greatest allies are usually the strongest.

Several folks who debate on these pages, suggest they anchor their views in the Judaeo-Christian tradition. I don't think those who truly inspire people believe you do it on the backs of others, with acts of injustice and brutality. "jesus" (supposed founder of the christian belief) said the poor were blessed and that the hungry, the sick, the imprisoned were to receive hospitality and concern from the "individually strong."

[Matman]

Several folks who debate on these pages, suggest they anchor their views in the Judaeo-Christian tradition. I don't think those who truly inspire people believe you do it on the backs of others, with acts of injustice and brutality. "jesus" (supposed founder of the christian belief) said the poor were blessed and that the hungry, the sick, the imprisoned were to receive hospitality and concern from the "individually strong."

I'm always conflicted survival. I went to college and majored in Kineisiology. You have to have an understanding of evolution or at least the bodies ability to adapt(depending on your beliefs) to understand how we work as humans. When it comes to society i very much believe in survival of the fit however i do everything i can do to help the less fortunate. I even first signed up in the military after 9/11 as a construction engineer. However i was soon reclassed to a combat engineer and the to explosive ordance disposal. I went from wanting to build and give back to destroying. Through destruction i gave more back to the less fortunate then i ever could have through construction. God really does work in mysterious ways.

[thecavemaster]

I'm always conflicted survival. I went to college and majored in Kineisiology. You have to have an understanding of evolution or at least the bodies ability to adapt(depending on your beliefs) to understand how we work as humans. When it comes to society i very much believe in survival of the fit however i do everything i can do to help the less fortunate. I even first signed up in the military after 9/11 as a construction engineer. However i was soon reclassed to a combat engineer and the to explosive ordance disposal. I went from wanting to build and give back to destroying. Through destruction i gave more back to the less fortunate then i ever could have through construction. God really does work in mysterious ways.

If there was such a person as "jesus," he championed the least, the last, and the lost. Dealing with the effects of forces upon the motions of material bodies.... Here is what I know: bombs blow limbs off, heads off, arms off, familes apart, communities apart. If they are used to impose certain ideas of "freedom," then I can only suggest with C. S. Lewis that to do the wrong thing for the right reason is the highest treason.

[DevilsWin]

If there was such a person as "jesus," he championed the least, the last, and the lost. Dealing with the effects of forces upon the motions of material bodies.... Here is what I know: bombs blow limbs off, heads off, arms off, familes apart, communities apart. If they are used to impose certain ideas of "freedom," then I can only suggest with C. S. Lewis that to do the wrong thing for the right reason is the highest treason.

Great Post!

The end doesn't justify the means!:mad:

[Matman]

If there was such a person as "jesus," he championed the least, the last, and the lost. Dealing with the effects of forces upon the motions of material bodies.... Here is what I know: bombs blow limbs off, heads off, arms off, familes apart, communities apart. If they are used to impose certain ideas of "freedom," then I can only suggest with C. S. Lewis that to do the wrong thing for the right reason is the highest treason.

I'm guessing ( and i hate to make an assumption) since you used the word "freedom" you took me to be the one using bombs. If that is the case then you are way off base. My job in Iraq is route clearance. I would dispose of roadside bombs. I would take out ambushes and weapon caches. I risked my life to find these IEDs (roadside bombs) and destroy them before they could harm US and coalition troops. But just as importantly i would take these bombs out before they could strike civilians to include iraqi men, women and children. Roadside bombs can hit anyone. often hid under sand and initiated with a home made pressure strip. They don't descriminate. They don't destinguish between civilians and military. I did over 400 missions in Iraq on my second tour alone. We found over 200 roadside bombs. We hit 30 roadside bombs. So what part of that is the wrong thing.

[thecavemaster]

I'm guessing ( and i hate to make an assumption) since you used the word "freedom" you took me to be the one using bombs. If that is the case then you are way off base. My job in Iraq is route clearance. I would dispose of roadside bombs. I would take out ambushes and weapon caches. I risked my life to find these IEDs (roadside bombs) and destroy them before they could harm US and coalition troops. But just as importantly i would take these bombs out before they could strike civilians to include iraqi men, women and children. Roadside bombs can hit anyone. often hid under sand and initiated with a home made pressure strip. They don't descriminate. They don't destinguish between civilians and military. I did over 400 missions in Iraq on my second tour alone. We found over 200 roadside bombs. We hit 30 roadside bombs. So what part of that is the wrong thing.

I didn't know what your particular function was...sorry if it sounded like I was assuming. Here is my thought: if "jesus" existed he suggested that he could call ten thousand angels and, basically, slaughter his enemies. He didn't. He suggested that his kingdom was not of his world, that the true city of light was as yet unrevealed, that his mission was not to destroy human lives but to save them. From that, a society which figures itself more "christian" than any other nation has more bombs, more capacity to destroy the world than any place on the face of the earth. I find it a bit odd.

[Matman]

I didn't know what your particular function was...sorry if it sounded like I was assuming. Here is my thought: if "jesus" existed he suggested that he could call ten thousand angels and, basically, slaughter his enemies. He didn't. He suggested that his kingdom was not of his world, that the true city of light was as yet unrevealed, that his mission was not to destroy human lives but to save them. From that, a society which figures itself more "christian" than any other nation has more bombs, more capacity to destroy the world than any place on the face of the earth. I find it a bit odd.

So is your oposition due to it not meeting the guidelines of WWJD?

[DevilsWin]

I'm guessing ( and i hate to make an assumption) since you used the word "freedom" you took me to be the one using bombs. If that is the case then you are way off base. My job in Iraq is route clearance. I would dispose of roadside bombs. I would take out ambushes and weapon caches. I risked my life to find these IEDs (roadside bombs) and destroy them before they could harm US and coalition troops. But just as importantly i would take these bombs out before they could strike civilians to include iraqi men, women and children. Roadside bombs can hit anyone. often hid under sand and initiated with a home made pressure strip. They don't descriminate. They don't destinguish between civilians and military. I did over 400 missions in Iraq on my second tour alone. We found over 200 roadside bombs. We hit 30 roadside bombs. So what part of that is the wrong thing.

Just curious. Who is your employer in Iraq?

[Matman]

Just curious. Who is your employer in Iraq?

My employer? I already said i was a combat engineer and then EOD. I was in the US Army. I thought that was clear just by descibing my job.

[DevilsWin]

My employer? I already said i was a combat engineer and then EOD. I was in the US Army. I thought that was clear just by descibing my job.

Apparently I had missed that part of the discussion. Thanks for your service! It is greatly appreciated.alute:

Just for the record though, Navy beat Army in the Football game this year!

[thecavemaster]

So is your oposition due to it not meeting the guidelines of WWJD?

I don't like bumper sticker answers. IF "jesus" existed, he was executed for being radical, revolutionary, refusing to put truth up for sale. He alienated most everyone in power structures, religious and political. The world is full of "believers," but very, very thinly scattered with his "come after my spirit" followers. I have no opinion on those who use the "weapons of this world." I can't know motives.

[oneijoe]

...

I say let Egypt absorb Gaza. They will restore law and order.

Problem is...the Egyptians don't want them.

[EKY Sportster]

****WARNING****
**Extremely Graphic**

This is a video taken shortly after an airstrike in palestine by Israeli's. Not sure what the target was. Not sure the numbers of dead and injured. There are dead corpses. People dying. Dead Children, and body parts. So I caution you if you are thinking of watching this video. But this puts real feeling into something that we all to easily seperate ourselves from.

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Leaked_gra..._0104.html

This site's video is not even from Gaza? But your point is well taken. War is bad for people because people die. You will find the same thing in Iraq, Afghanistan and in many other countries around the world. Unless there is peace, war will always produce death and death is not very pleasant. But it goes with the territory. You can't allow Hamas to launch a rocket into Israel from next to your house and not expect to get hit back. Some of the civilians are innocent and some not so much so. But I don't think I'd live in an area where militants were launching rockets against Israel if I wanted to live safely would you? I feel sorry for all involved in this situation, but you can't fault Israel for defending itself. I mean they get shelled all the time and they have had to close schools and live inside lately because of the rocket attacks. No country is going to put up with that, including ourselves. Do you think that the US would allow rocket attacks from Mexico? You know what would happen as well as I do. So while it is unfortunate, the Palestinians just have to deal with it.

[EKY Sportster]

If there was such a person as "jesus," he championed the least, the last, and the lost. Dealing with the effects of forces upon the motions of material bodies.... Here is what I know: bombs blow limbs off, heads off, arms off, familes apart, communities apart. If they are used to impose certain ideas of "freedom," then I can only suggest with C. S. Lewis that to do the wrong thing for the right reason is the highest treason.

Israel is not doing the wrong thing for the right reason. They are doing the right thing for the right reason. Israel can be ruthless, but how would you expect them to respond when they are attacked constantly in some form or another. Israel would bother no one IF they were allowed to live in peace. No country is going to sit around and let themselves be attacked by rockets, suicide bombers and so forth. We wouldn't do it in the US, nor would we do it on a personal level. So why would anyone expect Israel to sit back and allow rockets to rain down on its cities everyday.

[EKY Sportster]

Problem is...the Egyptians don't want them.

The problem with the Palestinians is that they won't live beside Israel in peace. Not saying all of them wouldn't, but there are too many militant groups (being used as pawns by Syria and Iran) to allow it. So the true innocent Palestinian people are just victims of their own militant groups and religious leaders. Sad, but no ready solution comes to mind. Because of this, if I were Israel, I wouldn't concede land to any country or group of people under any circumstances.

[thecavemaster]

Israel is not doing the wrong thing for the right reason. They are doing the right thing for the right reason. Israel can be ruthless, but how would you expect them to respond when they are attacked constantly in some form or another. Israel would bother no one IF they were allowed to live in peace. No country is going to sit around and let themselves be attacked by rockets, suicide bombers and so forth. We wouldn't do it in the US, nor would we do it on a personal level. So why would anyone expect Israel to sit back and allow rockets to rain down on its cities everyday.

The post you responded to was pointed at a WWJD question posed by another poster. It is beyond me how the whole Palestinian/Arab/Israel issue can be brought to a present and lasting peace. Basically, the residents of Gaza, peaceloving or violent, are meeting once again a Westernized military arsenal and reaping destruction.

[EKY Sportster]

The post you responded to was pointed at a WWJD question posed by another poster. It is beyond me how the whole Palestinian/Arab/Israel issue can be brought to a present and lasting peace. Basically, the residents of Gaza, peaceloving or violent, are meeting once again a Westernized military arsenal and reaping destruction.

Well thecavemaster, if the residents of Gaza, peaceloving or violent would quit shooting rockets into Israel at the request of their Syrian and Iranian puppet masters, then they wouldn't have to meet this Westernized military arsenal would they? As for lasting peace, it won't come until the treaty made with Israel after the Anti-Christ takes power. Read your Bible!

[DevilsWin]

Well thecavemaster, if the residents of Gaza, peaceloving or violent would quit shooting rockets into Israel at the request of their Syrian and Iranian puppet masters, then they wouldn't have to meet this Westernized military arsenal would they? As for lasting peace, it won't come until the treaty made with Israel after the Anti-Christ takes power. Read your Bible!

WOW! That's way out there on the fringe EKY Sporster.

Only religious fanatics like Bin Laden believe that **** Fire and Brimstone speak.

How about if Israel ends occupation in the West Bank.

Maybe that would put an end to the rockets coming out of Gaza.

[EKY Sportster]

WOW! That's way out there on the fringe EKY Sporster.

Only religious fanatics like Bin Laden believe that **** Fire and Brimstone speak.

How about if Israel ends occupation in the West Bank.

Maybe that would put an end to the rockets coming out of Gaza.

Believe what you want, but one day you will believe it!!

But fire and brimstone aside, it is the rockets fired from Gaza by Hamas that is causing the problems for the Palestinians in Gaza. As far as I was aware there is no current battle with the West Bank going on, other than just the regular Palestinian sympathizing. But quiet personally, I think Israel should occupy the West Bank and Gaza. If the Palestinians want their own country, let some larger Arab country give them some land within their country to live in, which would put some distance between them and Israel.

[DevilsWin]

Believe what you want, but one day you will believe it!!

But fire and brimstone aside, it is the rockets fired from Gaza by Hamas that is causing the problems for the Palestinians in Gaza. As far as I was aware there is no current battle with the West Bank going on, other than just the regular Palestinian sympathizing. But quiet personally, I think Israel should occupy the West Bank and Gaza. If the Palestinians want their own country, let some larger Arab country give them some land within their country to live in, which would put some distance between them and Israel.

I refer back to my post on another thread.

I would also like to add that you apparently have no idea what you're talking about.
I would usually say shut your mouth when spewing such misinformation, but in your case I 'll say shut your ***. Because they are both the same.

[EKY Sportster]

I refer back to my post on another thread.

I would also like to add that you apparently have no idea what you're talking about.
I would usually say shut your mouth when spewing such misinformation, but in your case I 'll say shut your ***. Because they are both the same.

That makes no sense what you just said??:confused:

But let me ask you this... If your neighbor was throwing rocks onto your house and car, would you let them keep doing it?? Or would you do something about it??

Can't wait to see the response to this question!

[thecavemaster]

Believe what you want, but one day you will believe it!!

But fire and brimstone aside, it is the rockets fired from Gaza by Hamas that is causing the problems for the Palestinians in Gaza. As far as I was aware there is no current battle with the West Bank going on, other than just the regular Palestinian sympathizing. But quiet personally, I think Israel should occupy the West Bank and Gaza. If the Palestinians want their own country, let some larger Arab country give them some land within their country to live in, which would put some distance between them and Israel.

The Palestinians look at that land as their homeland, just as Native Americans viewed their land. Of course, a superior miliatary force moved them to a place not of their choosing, to get them away from white settlers. It is not ok to fire rockets at civilians. It is not ok to fire rockets at civilians in response. "Nobody's right if everybody's wrong."

[EKY Sportster]

The Palestinians look at that land as their homeland, just as Native Americans viewed their land. Of course, a superior miliatary force moved them to a place not of their choosing, to get them away from white settlers. It is not ok to fire rockets at civilians. It is not ok to fire rockets at civilians in response. "Nobody's right if everybody's wrong."

Good point! No doubt Israel has overracted to some degree and I don't ever condone civilian casualties. But when Hamas shoots rockets from peoples backyards and from schools and so forth they should be made to blame when a retaliatory strike comes right back. Also when they hide and build their military structures right in the middle of average citizens neighborhoods, what do they expect. You can't cowardly hide amongst the population and use them as protection if you are a true soldier or military.

And you are right about the US. Our own country hasn't had the best track record in regard to human rights either. Look at the treatment of Native Americans. Wiping out entire villages. Same thing right on through Vietnam and even in Iraq to some extent. The majority of US soldiers are good, but in war civilians always catch more then their fair share. It can get frustrating when militants use civilian cover to launch attacks.

Well the Palestinians have lost their homeland long ago. It really isn't their homeland anyway. Israel was their before they were originally. Would sound like an international peacekeeping force all around the borders of the West Bank, Gaza and Lebanon would solve many problems. Maybe??

[DevilsWin]

That makes no sense what you just said??:confused:

But let me ask you this... If your neighbor was throwing rocks onto your house and car, would you let them keep doing it?? Or would you do something about it??

Can't wait to see the response to this question!

If I set up an armed check point at the end of my neighbors driveway, denying him access to the grocery store I would expect him to throw rocks at me.irateSho

[EKY Sportster]

If I set up an armed check point at the end of my neighbors driveway, denying him access to the grocery store I would expect him to throw rocks at me.irateSho

Well the checkpoints are to stop the smuggling of the rockets and other arms across the border to start with. Otherwise, Syria and Iran would really ramp it up. But the tunnels work just as well I guess since they have dozens.

Maybe you should go over to Gaza and help them! lol

[EKY Sportster]

If I set up an armed check point at the end of my neighbors driveway, denying him access to the grocery store I would expect him to throw rocks at me.irateSho

I believe the only thing you and me have in common is that we both like UK and the Steelers! But that is a start! lol

[DevilsWin]

So far, According to the Web site of the Palestinian Authority's Central Bureau of Statistics :

1,300 Palestinians have died
5,400 others were wounded. Among the dead were 159 children, two of whom died in an UNRWA school.
400,000 people still have no water and towns are flooded with sewage.
50 U.N. facilities were damaged.
22,000 buildings were damaged or destroyed. Economic destruction is estimated to total more than $1.9 billion.
Gaza's gross domestic product was slashed by 85 percent.
80 percent of crops in Gaza were destroyed.




Israel has said 13 of its citizens -- including 10 soldiers -- were killed during Israel's three-week offensive in Gaza which started December 27th.

[DevilsWin]

Well the checkpoints are to stop the smuggling of the rockets and other arms across the border to start with. Otherwise, Syria and Iran would really ramp it up. But the tunnels work just as well I guess since they have dozens.

Maybe you should go over to Gaza and help them! lol

I've been to the Middle East. Serving my country.

[EKY Sportster]

I've been to the Middle East. Serving my country.

I'll assume that you mean by "my country" the United States? :confused: If so, then why are we being the Palestinian sympathizer?? And by serving your country in the Middle East, I'll assume you mean Iraq. That is not the same as being in Gaza! Different war, different place.

So do you think the US should have been involved in Iraq then? If you ask me, despite the overreaction by Israel, they had more reason to invade Gaza than we did Iraq. Just my opinion, what do you think??

[DevilsWin]

I'll assume that you mean by "my country" the United States? :confused: If so, then why are we being the Palestinian sympathizer?? And by serving your country in the Middle East, I'll assume you mean Iraq. That is not the same as being in Gaza! Different war, different place.

So do you think the US should have been involved in Iraq then? If you ask me, despite the overreaction by Israel, they had more reason to invade Gaza than we did Iraq. Just my opinion, what do you think??

Yes I served the United States. That's me in my profile pic.
To not have sympathy for all humans reguardless of their religion or their race who are carrying the chains of bondage would be inhumane.

I was against going to Iraq in 1991 but I went and was awarded a few medals and letters of commendation for my service.

But I was against it. I fist fought with my shipmates over this belief time and time again. Maybe a couple times a week.

Iraq is not the same as Gaza but the region is still the same. The People are the same, the religion is the same.

If all religions practiced their religion as it was meant to be practiced all would be well with the world. But all religions now claim to be superior to one another and there in lies the poison.

Man is not capable of peace as long as religions claim to be superior over one another.

I know some creep made millions off of WWJD. But how about we actually think about what Jesus said for once.

Then for balance take in a little Buddah and some Johnny Cash!irateSho