[Beetle01]

I am a very open minded person and if someone can convince me of why I should support this legislation in KY then I will do so. However, I am willing to bet my counter argument will be too strong and then the only reply will be "well there shouldn't be welfare at all". While that is not the topic we won't go there, and as long as we continue to elect only Repubs or Demos it will never change.


So go.

[Wildcatk23]

Can we not here your reasons to why there should not be first?

[TheRealVille]

Can we not here your reasons to why there should not be first?

I'm torn on the issue. What I do know for a fact, working in the construction industry, drug testing doesn't work there. 9 out of 10 dope heads pass drug tests on the job, and my trade has well above it's share of them.

[Stardust]

Beetle, I can give your a reason why they should, but I can give you simple reasoning why they should not - it is unconstitutional and it costs more than it saves. The number of those who have lost work due to dependency is minor in comparison those who have lost their jobs for other reasons. If someone has been convicted of a crime due to dependency, then I am OK if their freedom and ability to collect my tax dollars freely should be tested, but that is my opinion only. It laws do go into affect, that would be the only case that I would support it. Don't subject all, only those with a history.

[SKINNYPIG]

I don't think drug testing EVERY welfare recipient is doable. Maybe start with welfare recipients that have/get a drug conviction such as a DUI, operating under the influence and so on. When drug abuse is evident, the recipient should be drug tested and the chance of getting his/her monthly drug habit delivered to their mailbox should drop considerably. Forget the cost, taxpayers should not fund drug abuse. I would rather pay for the testing than the using.

[RunItUpTheGut]

I am 110% for it.

I read an interesting article today that made a great point....

Since just about every job here in the US requires random drug testing, then why should those recieving those same working people tax dollars not recieve a drug test as well?

I know there are MANY people who get by a drug test when they shouldnt however, why not make it to where a male and femal social worker go to the house and watch them piss in the tube so that they cant cheat it?
Or a better idea, why not make them go to the social security office once a month on a random date each time, and and watch them there. Its not like they have to be at work or something....

[Wildcatk23]

Im for it 100%.

I am not for sure how the "we would spend more money on drug test" data is projected. But i think it would do more good then harm. People argue what about the kids, they'll starve. Well then you obviously have no idea how Welfare people spend there money. Drugs, Alcohol, anything other than there children. Don't give me that bullshit argument that you have seen kids with dopehead parents that still LOVE their children. Thats the biggest bunch of bullshit ive ever heard. Anyone that would take food from there babies mouth to support a habit of there own is selfish and deserves a swift kick in the teeth. Believe me i know, I live in Martin County. I have family on both sides that are addicts, My mother has raised 2 of my aunts children because she wont get off the stuff.

If you drug test her in the first place and you find she is a user you take the children into Custody. Then 3 months later you wouldn't find a baby in a trailer Dehydrated and Starving because her crack headed mother LEFT her laying in her crib because she had to make a drug run to Florida.

You wouldn't have so many kids stealing other children's lunch money out of there backpacks because there buying extra food at lunch to take home to a sibling or store in there room. You wouldn't have so many children beaten and abused because there mother just took a Zanax Bar and how no fucking clue where she is at or what shes doing.

Once that child Is taken into custody Give that child her parents welfare check. So she can eat, buy things, Pay for her to live nice in an orphanage, family members home. A Stranger looking to adopt.

Now i know some of you will be all "The country is in Debt" "we cant spend anymore money" . Well its either support a Habit or save a child life IMO.

How is it unconstitutional to drug test someone? I dont see where it says in the Constitution that the US Government must support Drug habits.

[RunItUpTheGut]

^
I agree 100%
Well said.

[TheRealVille]

I am 110% for it.

I read an interesting article today that made a great point....

Since just about every job here in the US requires random drug testing, then why should those recieving those same working people tax dollars not recieve a drug test as well?

I know there are MANY people who get by a drug test when they shouldnt however, why not make it to where a male and femal social worker go to the house and watch them piss in the tube so that they cant cheat it?
Or a better idea, why not make them go to the social security office once a month on a random date each time, and and watch them there. Its not like they have to be at work or something....

While ,like I said, I'm torn on the issue, the bold is just what I was talking about in my post above. Getting by a drug test is the easiest thing in the world to do. Drug testing doesn't work in my trade. 9 out of 10 of the dopeheads get by the test.

[SKINNYPIG]

While ,like I said, I'm torn on the issue, the bold is just what I was talking about in my post above. Getting by a drug test is the easiest thing in the world to do. Drug testing doesn't work in my trade. 9 out of 10 of the dopeheads get by the test.

Then we need to develope new drug testing procedures.

[Beetle01]

The reasoning behind it is great in principle. But it is not real world functional. It is a ploy for votes. First off you are likely only going to catch a small amount as drug tests are easily beatable or due to the fact that most drugs are only in your system for up to 72 hours. Drug testing is not going to change how much the fed or state govts spend on welfare or similar projects. They are just simply going to also be spending more drug tests. If I thought hundreds of thousands of the people who abuse the welfare system for drug money would get caught and it would curb spending then I would be for it. However all people will do now is lay off the oxycodone for a few days before heading to the local welfare office.

[judgementday]

I support this but only if it applies to those who have a history of abusing as mentioned in an earlier post.

IMO, welfare should no longer come in the form of a check. Instead, maybe it should be smiliar to food stamps or a voucher that says you can only spend it on certain items. I know a number of people on welfare and all of them are fully capable of getting a job. I think it has come to a point that more people abuse the system than need the system.

[RunItUpTheGut]

While ,like I said, I'm torn on the issue, the bold is just what I was talking about in my post above. Getting by a drug test is the easiest thing in the world to do. Drug testing doesn't work in my trade. 9 out of 10 of the dopeheads get by the test.

your definitely right about the testing.
It astonishes me how some of the guys i know can pass a drug test when they literally smoke pot a day before they take it.

However, what if we done it be way of a same sex social security worker actually watching you pee into the cup?
It cuts out any chances of forged pee.
I know though that there are drinks that flush you out and so on, and it doesnt matter what you pee because you'll be clean, but its just a thought.

What about hair testing? Its something that is expensive, but nearly impossible to cheat.

[judgementday]

There are drug kits that can test hair on the spot but I believe is only 80% accurate.

However, drug testing should be done as it is in drug court (I know from experience). They have a baliff watch you pee in the cup and the kit they use is ones supplied to hospitals and/or correctional facilites. I have never seen one person beat one of those even when I personally watched someone use a urine cleaning kit, drink cranberry juice, and urinate as much as possible leading up to their court case. Still came back positive.

Another idea using drug court ideas is to have repeat offenders get their blood tested.

[vundy33]

The government drug tests me, when I actually work for my money they pay me. Why not drug test these people who don't earn the money they're given?

[vundy33]

There are drug kits that can test hair on the spot but I believe is only 80% accurate.

However, drug testing should be done as it is in drug court (I know from experience). They have a baliff watch you pee in the cup and the kit they use is ones supplied to hospitals and/or correctional facilites. I have never seen one person beat one of those even when I personally watched someone use a urine cleaning kit, drink cranberry juice, and urinate as much as possible leading up to their court case. Still came back positive.

Another idea using drug court ideas is to have repeat offenders get their blood tested.

That's how we do it in the military. The unlucky guy assigned to be the watcher, we call that job "dick watch".

A few years ago, we had some guys that had friends in the civilian company that actually tests the piss that goes to them. They got away with getting high for quite a while like that, but when caught, were discharged. I could've done it, but just didn't want to take the chance.

[LWC]

I support this but only if it applies to those who have a history of abusing as mentioned in an earlier post.

IMO, welfare should no longer come in the form of a check. Instead, maybe it should be smiliar to food stamps or a voucher that says you can only spend it on certain items. I know a number of people on welfare and all of them are fully capable of getting a job. I think it has come to a point that more people abuse the system than need the system.

I disagree.

Allow me to ask first:
1. What do we mean when we say welfare? Are we referring to any and all government programs that provide assistance to needy people? Does this argument include permanent disability SSI? As in people that are born blind, people born with no legs, (I mean this seriously, not as a joke) the truly mentally retarded/deficient people? If that is the case, I do not feel that those people should have to be drug tested. They keep paper-work on things like that, so the government would know.

I completely agree with testing ANYONE with a history, no matter the disability. You use, you lose. Like, the above poster said in the quote, I too, know people that have gotten on gov't programs that I cannot understand why? Sometimes, with people I know well, I ask them what makes them disabled. One lady explained to me it was her diabetes that got out of control.

I know this woman, she cheated her diet-rules (diabetics have to lower sugar intake, etc....) My dad and father-in-law have diabetes and serious gout, why shouldn't they get disability? Is it fair that they take care of themselves to not get worse, but go on to work anyway? If they started stuffing with ice cream and quit taking their shots, they could get these things.

[TheRealVille]

[YOUTUBE="Freebase"]2-ckIv1tiaU[/YOUTUBE]

[RunItUpTheGut]

I disagree.

Allow me to ask first:
1. What do we mean when we say welfare? Are we referring to any and all government programs that provide assistance to needy people? Does this argument include permanent disability SSI? As in people that are born blind, people born with no legs, (I mean this seriously, not as a joke) the truly mentally retarded/deficient people? If that is the case, I do not feel that those people should have to be drug tested. They keep paper-work on things like that, so the government would know.

I completely agree with testing ANYONE with a history, no matter the disability. You use, you lose. Like, the above poster said in the quote, I too, know people that have gotten on gov't programs that I cannot understand why? Sometimes, with people I know well, I ask them what makes them disabled. One lady explained to me it was her diabetes that got out of control.

I know this woman, she cheated her diet-rules (diabetics have to lower sugar intake, etc....) My dad and father-in-law have diabetes and serious gout, why shouldn't they get disability? Is it fair that they take care of themselves to not get worse, but go on to work anyway? If they started stuffing with ice cream and quit taking their shots, they could get these things.

You cannot discriminate against one or the other. You must drug test them all. I can see an exception being given to people that are mentally retarded or pretty much a vegtable because if positive, theres no way they made that choice thereselves. However as far as the "needy" people (lol) yes drug test them all.
I see where you refered to disabled people. When i think disabled (not handicapped) i think of a worker who has been hurt on the job or in life but i still fully mentally capable of living from day to day just like me and you.
With that said, id say the percentage of people that are disabled that use drugs is just as high as those "needy" people who are just to damn sorry to work.
Every dollar we save from the testing should go to paying off debt.

[NothingTrivial]

I saw a suggestion by a senator for another state (cant remember which one) that suggested adding more jobs the welfare offices just for overseeing drug testing, as well as taking a certain a small amount out of each to check to pay for the drug test, which would be reimbursed in the persons next check if they were to pass the test.

[TheRealVille]

You cannot discriminate against one or the other. You must drug test them all. I can see an exception being given to people that are mentally retarded or pretty much a vegtable because if positive, theres no way they made that choice thereselves. However as far as the "needy" people (lol) yes drug test them all.
I see where you refered to disabled people. When i think disabled (not handicapped) i think of a worker who has been hurt on the job or in life but i still fully mentally capable of living from day to day just like me and you.
With that said, id say the percentage of people that are disabled that use drugs is just as high as those "needy" people who are just to damn sorry to work.
Every dollar we save from the testing should go to paying off debt.

That falls under people drawing Social Security, and is not welfare.

[TheRealVille]

I disagree.

Allow me to ask first:
1. What do we mean when we say welfare? Are we referring to any and all government programs that provide assistance to needy people? Does this argument include permanent disability SSI? As in people that are born blind, people born with no legs, (I mean this seriously, not as a joke) the truly mentally retarded/deficient people? If that is the case, I do not feel that those people should have to be drug tested. They keep paper-work on things like that, so the government would know.

I completely agree with testing ANYONE with a history, no matter the disability. You use, you lose. Like, the above poster said in the quote, I too, know people that have gotten on gov't programs that I cannot understand why? Sometimes, with people I know well, I ask them what makes them disabled. One lady explained to me it was her diabetes that got out of control.

I know this woman, she cheated her diet-rules (diabetics have to lower sugar intake, etc....) My dad and father-in-law have diabetes and serious gout, why shouldn't they get disability? Is it fair that they take care of themselves to not get worse, but go on to work anyway? If they started stuffing with ice cream and quit taking their shots, they could get these things.

You can't drug test for that, the people pay into that when they worked.

[judgementday]

I disagree.

Allow me to ask first:
1. What do we mean when we say welfare? Are we referring to any and all government programs that provide assistance to needy people? Does this argument include permanent disability SSI? As in people that are born blind, people born with no legs, (I mean this seriously, not as a joke) the truly mentally retarded/deficient people? If that is the case, I do not feel that those people should have to be drug tested. They keep paper-work on things like that, so the government would know.

I completely agree with testing ANYONE with a history, no matter the disability. You use, you lose. Like, the above poster said in the quote, I too, know people that have gotten on gov't programs that I cannot understand why? Sometimes, with people I know well, I ask them what makes them disabled. One lady explained to me it was her diabetes that got out of control.

I know this woman, she cheated her diet-rules (diabetics have to lower sugar intake, etc....) My dad and father-in-law have diabetes and serious gout, why shouldn't they get disability? Is it fair that they take care of themselves to not get worse, but go on to work anyway? If they started stuffing with ice cream and quit taking their shots, they could get these things.

I personally feel that there is a difference between those who collect SSI and those who collect Welfare. There are the disabled (whether mentally or physically) who need the monetary support. My issue lies with Johnny Red who doesn't want to get a job because he knows by filling out a few forms he can get free money. Then when he receives the money, he is free to do whatever he chooses with it. Which in the town I live means they buy drugs, alchohol, and fast food.

There comes a point when people need to learn how to survive on their own. The government cannot keep holding people's hands because they are lazy or have a dependency.

On another note, If anyone here is a 90's rapper fan, you may recall the time when Ol Dirty Bastard took a limo to his local welfare office to collect his check.

[Beetle01]

When Im talking welfare, Im talking people like the White's. I use them as an example because of their "popularity" but a whole family who is on welfare. Just flat out dont work, and have been drawing a check their whole lives. Jessco's father knew how to work the system and got them all checks starting when they were little kids. I know lots of families like that. I even know a few who move house to house until the one before is condemned. They are so disgusting that every house they live in ends up being demolished. All of it payed for with tax payer money. Nothing keeping them from holding real jobs, they just don't.

Im sure they have qualified for some ridiculous mental or physical disability. I think a better system is needed for filtering out these people. Personally I believe that we should help out those who are truly physically or mentally disabled. I have no problem with that, but the abuse of the system is going to far, up to the point it is costing state and federal govt's hundreds of billions a year, and before long will reach 1 trillion.

I see the money wasted, I work in the ER at St. Mary's. Dozens and Dozens, maybe hundred or so a day come in on govt dime looking for nothing more than pain meds every single day. This is about 90% of our patients.

[RunItUpTheGut]

When Im talking welfare, Im talking people like the White's. I use them as an example because of their "popularity" but a whole family who is on welfare. Just flat out dont work, and have been drawing a check their whole lives. Jessco's father knew how to work the system and got them all checks starting when they were little kids. I know lots of families like that. I even know a few who move house to house until the one before is condemned. They are so disgusting that every house they live in ends up being demolished. All of it payed for with tax payer money. Nothing keeping them from holding real jobs, they just don't.

Im sure they have qualified for some ridiculous mental or physical disability. I think a better system is needed for filtering out these people. Personally I believe that we should help out those who are truly physically or mentally disabled. I have no problem with that, but the abuse of the system is going to far, up to the point it is costing state and federal govt's hundreds of billions a year, and before long will reach 1 trillion.

I see the money wasted, I work in the ER at St. Mary's. Dozens and Dozens, maybe hundred or so a day come in on govt dime looking for nothing more than pain meds every single day. This is about 90% of our patients.

This is the EXACT reason you should be for it. Case Solved.

[LWC]

I personally feel that there is a difference between those who collect SSI and those who collect Welfare. There are the disabled (whether mentally or physically) who need the monetary support. My issue lies with Johnny Red who doesn't want to get a job because he knows by filling out a few forms he can get free money. Then when he receives the money, he is free to do whatever he chooses with it. Which in the town I live means they buy drugs, alchohol, and fast food.

There comes a point when people need to learn how to survive on their own. The government cannot keep holding people's hands because they are lazy or have a dependency.

On another note, If anyone here is a 90's rapper fan, you may recall the time when Ol Dirty Bastard took a limo to his local welfare office to collect his check.

Agreed. Thank you. I was just making sure.

[BFritz]

I am a very open minded person and if someone can convince me of why I should support this legislation in KY then I will do so. However, I am willing to bet my counter argument will be too strong and then the only reply will be "well there shouldn't be welfare at all". While that is not the topic we won't go there, and as long as we continue to elect only Repubs or Demos it will never change.


So go.

I can't believe that no one has brought up these points:

-Welfare- listen to the name and realize that the definition is to provide welfare for its citizens, so when does a citizen need to do drugs to be well? In fact, doesn't doing drugs accomplish the exact opposite?

-Another definition of Welfare is to give financial aid to support citizens who cannot support themselves to live, so drugs aren't needed to support to live, are they?

-Again, listen to the name and see that it's "Wel"fare, not "Usethemoneytobreakthelawandcheattaxpayers"fare

I don't exactly know how to fix the system because, like people said, drugs are out of the system in time, so, even with someone watching people pee, it's not full-proof. The food stamps and things like that would be a good idea except I can see people trading those for the drugs, or, worse yet, renting their wives or, God forbid, even their daughters to do favors for the drugs.

The only way I could see it possibly working would be to require people to save receipts so they could prove where every dollar goes, but that won't happen.

[TheRealVille]

I can't believe that no one has brought up these points:

-Welfare- listen to the name and realize that the definition is to provide welfare for its citizens, so when does a citizen need to do drugs to be well? In fact, doesn't doing drugs accomplish the exact opposite?

-Another definition of Welfare is to give financial aid to support citizens who cannot support themselves to live, so drugs aren't needed to support to live, are they?

-Again, listen to the name and see that it's "Wel"fare, not "Usethemoneytobreakthelawandcheattaxpayers"fare

I don't exactly know how to fix the system because, like people said, drugs are out of the system in time, so, even with someone watching people pee, it's not full-proof. The food stamps and things like that would be a good idea except I can see people trading those for the drugs, or, worse yet, renting their wives or, God forbid, even their daughters to do favors for the drugs.

The only way I could see it possibly working would be to require people to save receipts so they could prove where every dollar goes, but that won't happen.

As we have brought up, unless you are watching the pee come out of their junk, or taking hair samples, you can't catch them.

[vundy33]

^^Just have a designated dick-watcher. That solves that..

[TheRealVille]

^^Just have a designated dick-watcher. That solves that..

I had a guy look at my stuff 3x on one job.