[zaga_fan]

Agreed Hoot. Does Dave Kingman go into the HOF or be considered a SUPER STAR because of his HR total? No! Jason Kidd was never EVER considered an elite player! Great total statistics, but never a Super Star.

And that's not MY opinion, it's FACT!

I understand you don't think he is top ten.
But to say Jason Kidd was never elite or a super star is just plain crazy IMO.
While he was in New Jersey he did some of the best work I've ever seen a point guard do.
He's always been a streaky shooter....
but his on-ball defense, passing, and rebounding at his position absolutely, without-a-doubt, 100%, definitely made him an elite player and a super star.

[zaga_fan]

Jason Kidd is a career 40% shooter. There is no way he belongs in the top 5. His most impressive stats are totals - not averages. Longevity doesn't vault a player to the top of the list of all time greats.

He is #7 on the All-Time APG list.
His longevity probably dropped him a few spots on that one if anything.
IMO that is still impressive.

[Stardust]

I understand you don't think he is top ten.
But to say Jason Kidd was never elite or a super star is just plain crazy IMO.
While he was in New Jersey he did some of the best work I've ever seen a point guard do.
He's always been a streaky shooter....
but his on-ball defense, passing, and rebounding at his position absolutely, without-a-doubt, 100%, definitely made him an elite player and a super star.

Not my opinion, listen to the greats who played, coached, or covered the game and see.

[Aslan]

^I've never heard any of them give Jkidd nothing but praise.

[K_Mac]

^ I agree Aslan. Never heard anyone talk bad about Kidd until this thread. I strongly disagree with the poor arguments being made about Kidd. I have yet to see any stat or proof or reasoning to make me consider him anything other then an elite pg and a super star.

[MVP2]

I understand you don't think he is top ten.
But to say Jason Kidd was never elite or a super star is just plain crazy IMO.
While he was in New Jersey he did some of the best work I've ever seen a point guard do.
He's always been a streaky shooter....
but his on-ball defense, passing, and rebounding at his position absolutely, without-a-doubt, 100%, definitely made him an elite player and a super star.

Good Post Zaga, I agree 100%.

[Hoot Gibson]

He is #7 on the All-Time APG list.
His longevity probably dropped him a few spots on that one if anything.
IMO that is still impressive.

So, he is #7 on the apg list and he has always been a mediocre shooter. You make a very strong case against him being included in anybody's top 5 list. I love the way that Kidd plays because he is a team player who will do whatever he is capable of doing to put his team in position to win - but the same can be said of other elite point guards who have much better stats.

I consider Kidd to have been an elite player in his prime but you don't have to be an all-time top 5 or 10 player to be an elite player in your own time.

[Spud6]

I say he is not a top 5 PG of all-time.

[zaga_fan]

So, he is #7 on the apg list and he has always been a mediocre shooter. You make a very strong case against him being included in anybody's top 5 list. I love the way that Kidd plays because he is a team player who will do whatever he is capable of doing to put his team in position to win - but the same can be said of other elite point guards who have much better stats.

I consider Kidd to have been an elite player in his prime but you don't have to be an all-time top 5 or 10 player to be an elite player in your own time.

He's 38 and still playing....
all I'm saying is his "average" numbers(which you said were more important) are undoubtedly going to go down because of his "longevity"(which you said he had but wasn't important).

And as to the bolded....
I never eluded to that once in my posts.
SD said that he was "never EVER considered an elite player" and "never a superstar".
I disagreed with those comments but I never even entered the realm of stating that "you have to be an all-time top 5 or 10 player to be an elite player in your own time".

[MVP2]

How about Kidd tonight in OT, 38 year old playing D on one of the best scorers in the league to get a key steal and than hit that big 3. Kidd is a hell of a player.

[K_Mac]

How about Kidd tonight in OT, 38 year old playing D on one of the best scorers in the league to get a key steal and than hit that big 3. Kidd is a hell of a player.

H*ll yes he is! I was just coming to comment myself on his performance tonight. At 38 he is still getting the job done.

[zaga_fan]

How about Kidd tonight in OT, 38 year old playing D on one of the best scorers in the league to get a key steal and than hit that big 3. Kidd is a hell of a player.

It doesn't matter.
Longevity and getting it done in the playoffs in the latter of your career doesn't make you an elite player.
He's a streaky shooter that only has good "total" stats.
He had 17-7-5 tonight at 38....
but that shouldn't in any way reflect on him positively.
If he can't average a near triple-double and shoot 50+ percent from the field he needs to hang it up....even though he could help a team win a championship and add to his career "totals".

[K_Mac]

It doesn't matter.
Longevity and getting it done in the playoffs in the latter of your career doesn't make you an elite player.
He's a streaky shooter that only has good "total" stats.
He had 17-7-5 tonight at 38....
but that shouldn't in any way reflect on him positively.
If he can't average a near triple-double and shoot 50+ percent from the field he needs to hang it up....even though he could help a team win a championship and add to his career "totals".

:Thumbs: love the sarcasm.

[Hoot Gibson]

Shooting is a pretty important part of the game, or at least it used to be. Let me put Kidd's poor shooting ability into perspective of those of you who think hitting 4 out of 10 shots is good enough to rate a top 5 rank.

Dennis Rodman, never known for having any offensive skills was a career 52 percent shooter.Walt Frazier was a great defensive point guard who shot 49 percent. Earl "The Pearl" Monroe, who was not known for taking easy shots hit 46 percent of his shots. 5'6" Spud Webb was a 45% career shooter.

Jason Kidd has been a horrible shooter throughout his career. The only reason that anybody would include him in the top 10 point guards of all time is that he excelled in other phases of the game.

You could just as easily argue that Steve Nash belongs in the top 5 because he has been outstanding in every part of his game but defense - but like shooting, defense is a pretty important part of basketball.

When you consider how many lay-ups a defensive ace like Kidd shoots over a career, his shooting percentage actually overstates Kidd's ability to hit shots.

[OffTheHook]

Shooting is a pretty important part of the game, or at least it used to be. Let me put Kidd's poor shooting ability into perspective of those of you who think hitting 4 out of 10 shots is good enough to rate a top 5 rank.

Dennis Rodman, never known for having any offensive skills was a career 52 percent shooter.Walt Frazier was a great defensive point guard who shot 49 percent. Earl "The Pearl" Monroe, who was not known for taking easy shots hit 46 percent of his shots. 5'6" Spud Webb was a 45% career shooter.

Jason Kidd has been a horrible shooter throughout his career. The only reason that anybody would include him in the top 10 point guards of all time is that he excelled in other phases of the game.

You could just as easily argue that Steve Nash belongs in the top 5 because he has been outstanding in every part of his game but defense - but like shooting, defense is a pretty important part of basketball.

When you consider how many lay-ups a defensive ace like Kidd shoots over a career, his shooting percentage actually overstates Kidd's ability to hit shots.

Same could be said about Rodman. Who made his living around the basket.

[LWC]

Shooting is a pretty important part of the game, or at least it used to be. Let me put Kidd's poor shooting ability into perspective of those of you who think hitting 4 out of 10 shots is good enough to rate a top 5 rank.

Dennis Rodman, never known for having any offensive skills was a career 52 percent shooter.Walt Frazier was a great defensive point guard who shot 49 percent. Earl "The Pearl" Monroe, who was not known for taking easy shots hit 46 percent of his shots. 5'6" Spud Webb was a 45% career shooter.

Jason Kidd has been a horrible shooter throughout his career. The only reason that anybody would include him in the top 10 point guards of all time is that he excelled in other phases of the game.

You could just as easily argue that Steve Nash belongs in the top 5 because he has been outstanding in every part of his game but defense - but like shooting, defense is a pretty important part of basketball.

When you consider how many lay-ups a defensive ace like Kidd shoots over a career, his shooting percentage actually overstates Kidd's ability to hit shots.

To the first bolded part, Rodman and Kidd are two completely different styled players and two completely different positions. No way can their comparisons be made.

To the second bolded part, Kidd is one of the all-time leaders in made 3's. Sure PG's shoot a lot of lay-ups but stats show that he shoots a lot of long range shots.

[Stardust]

^I've never heard any of them give Jkidd nothing but praise.

I never said any of them knocked him, I said they have NEVER put him in Superstar status

[LClion4life]

I understand you don't think he is top ten.
But to say Jason Kidd was never elite or a super star is just plain crazy IMO.
While he was in New Jersey he did some of the best work I've ever seen a point guard do.
He's always been a streaky shooter....
but his on-ball defense, passing, and rebounding at his position absolutely, without-a-doubt, 100%, definitely made him an elite player and a super star.

Couldn't agree more.

[LClion4life]

Shooting is a pretty important part of the game, or at least it used to be. Let me put Kidd's poor shooting ability into perspective of those of you who think hitting 4 out of 10 shots is good enough to rate a top 5 rank.

Dennis Rodman, never known for having any offensive skills was a career 52 percent shooter.Walt Frazier was a great defensive point guard who shot 49 percent. Earl "The Pearl" Monroe, who was not known for taking easy shots hit 46 percent of his shots. 5'6" Spud Webb was a 45% career shooter.

Jason Kidd has been a horrible shooter throughout his career. The only reason that anybody would include him in the top 10 point guards of all time is that he excelled in other phases of the game.

You could just as easily argue that Steve Nash belongs in the top 5 because he has been outstanding in every part of his game but defense - but like shooting, defense is a pretty important part of basketball.

When you consider how many lay-ups a defensive ace like Kidd shoots over a career, his shooting percentage actually overstates Kidd's ability to hit shots.

You're crazy if you think Nash has just as good an argument as Kidd. I'd say Kidd is a solid #7 or #8 all-time PG.

[LClion4life]

I never said any of them knocked him, I said they have NEVER put him in Superstar status

They also NEVER not put him in superstar status.

[itzAmazing]

He's not Top Five but Kidd is right on the edge.

[K_Mac]

Well considering everyone seems to think he is near the top five, after he wins the championship this year, has a triple double in the finals, and plays for a few more years to add to his totals, he is top 5.

[Wildcatk23]

Kidd is playing with Double the Talent Then what Stockton played with.

[Hoot Gibson]

To the first bolded part, Rodman and Kidd are two completely different styled players and two completely different positions. No way can their comparisons be made.

To the second bolded part, Kidd is one of the all-time leaders in made 3's. Sure PG's shoot a lot of lay-ups but stats show that he shoots a lot of long range shots.

Kidd is one of the all time leaders in 3s because he has enjoyed a long career and the three-point line did not exist for many of the all-time great NBA point guards. His 3-point FG% is just below 35 percent - not horrible, but certainly not world class. (Compare to Steve Nash's 42.9% career 3-pt fg%.)

[Hoot Gibson]

You're crazy if you think Nash has just as good an argument as Kidd. I'd say Kidd is a solid #7 or #8 all-time PG.

I didn't say that he did. What I am saying is that both Kidd and Nash have glaring weaknesses in their games that should knock either out of anybody's top 5 list. Nash is a weak defender and Kidd is a poor shooter. Neither one is among the best five PGs ever to play in the NBA.

[zaga_fan]

Kidd is playing with Double the Talent Then what Stockton played with.

Talent doesn't matter if you don't produce as much