[LWC]

I have to agree with the bolded; and I likewise agree with Hoot's position on this matter. At what point does taking from the wealthy to take care of the poor end? Does the concept of free will mean that the good Lord should not want us to be forced by the govt to help the poor, but rather do so on own own iniative and by our own free choice? At what point does the taking actually become such a disincentive to working hard that people say "the heck with working hard to get ahead because the govt is going to take a large share of what I worked hard and risked to earn to give to those not willing to work hard or take the risks that I'm willing to take"? At what point does the safety net of entitlements become so plush that people don't bother to work; rather they live off the govt and let other poor smucks work their tail ends off to pay for it? Is this country at a point that a majority of folks have lost the value of self reliance and responsibility? My father and his father would have never accepted a $ in govt handouts as a result of the shame they would have felt. Is that prevalent sentiment around today? Do we risk becoming the next Greece or Spain where the people have become so addicted to entitlements to the point where they riot when faced with a reduction of entitlements with the knowledge that if entitlements aren't cut back severely their entire economy and govt will collapse? Are we that far gone?

LWC, in your capacity as a Pastor, I have a question for you. I believe that the growth of the govt safety net has had an adverse and negative effect on the strength of the family and the church. Just a generation ago, people had to have a strong family bond because in times of need it was the family members that took care of one of their own when times were tough. It wasn't the govt. Because that person was living off his/her family members, he or she looked hard to become self sufficient as fast as he or she could. Likewise, people belonged to and were active in their churches. Churches often were a safety net for help in addition to families. But as the govt has become the safety net, the need for a close and tight family has diminished as has the need to be actively involved in the church. Furthermore, that safety net is some faceless govt program that users have no problem milking for as long as they can. Much like all the employee protection laws passed by the state legislature and Congress has gutted the need for strong unions (and thus driven union membership in this country downward), I believe the govt safety net has hurt the need for strong families and strong church relationships. Have you ever thought about that issue? In your experience as a Pastor, is my theory all wet or do you see some truth in it?

I have either been a Senior Pastor or on a church executive staff since December 2009. People STILL use the church in a negative way sometimes. Many Pastors, including myself, will call around the community to other pastors when someone asks for monetary help, just to make sure we are not getting "played".

I have always hated not helping people, even if they are using the church. I would still give them groceries (Have them shop and me meet them at the register and hand the cashier a check to fill in the amount for.) or something they need, but not cash.

When I was on staff at one church, the Senior Pastor would have cases ALL THE TIME of people that would hit up at LEAST 10 churches in the area asking for monetary help for her sick mother in another county (who didn't have insurance, etc.....) When he called around, he found out she had milked over $800 from 6 churches, and one of the bigger churches she didn't hit, was a place she was a member and the pastor had done her mothers funeral 5 years before! I believe she went to jail. He taught me that day, to have faith in people but don't let your church get hurt.

About the government programs hurting the strength of the church and families, I don't know. I am probably not qualified to give an answer to a question that big. I will say that the people that TRULY NEED the government assistance are turning more to the church, and they have so much more freedom to not have to worry where the next meal comes from, etc.... Also, where the poorest US citizens are more financially stable now than they were 100 years ago, we see a bigger shift in churches doing more overseas missions, etc... Churches have more resources to help Darfur, Japan, Rwanda, etc....

Please don't take my answer as the end-all answer because I have not been around long enough in the ministry to make that answer. I was not around when government assistance programs started, so I cannot make a comparison. I would make a fair one, because I tend to lean more towards the middle than many on this site. (I have some views on the left and on the right in many different areas.)

I will say this off-topic though, it is incredibly hard to be a pastor without being political in many of the small country churches, like two that I serve. I get asked all the time "Who should I vote for", "What do you think about _______", "Who are you gonna vote for in this election?" etc.....I always tell them, I am your pastor, not your political party chair. There is WAAAAAAAAYYYYY to much Bible to discuss for me to get in the pulpit and talk about politics, lol. (Unless some MAJOR faith issue comes, up that is different.) I get 52 opportunities to talk about Jesus in the pulpit. There are 27 New Testament books, so if I just preached 1 sermon from every New Testament Book, that leaves 25 times. Easter and Christmas, have their own messages, drops it to 23. Matthew alone has Jesus birth, the Wise men, John the Baptist, Jesus Baptism, the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus tempted, Jesus calms the storm, Death + Resurrection, etc.... You see why I don't politic from the pulpit, lol. By the way, that was just one book in minor detail, and one sermon from each N.T. book and the major holidays, I haven't even mentioned the Old Testament stories like Abraham's faith, Noah and the Ark, Job's faith, Daniel and the Lions Den, creation, etc.....

I got off topic, oops.