[DevilsWin]

Now that my man has won I'll be taking a break from the Political Forum for a while.

4 years ago, after seeing what the Right Wing of the conservative movement did to John Kerry I decided that no matter what it took I was going to stand up and challenge every ridiculous statement on this forum. There have been some doosies!

Some on here will never change their views. Others have changd their views over time during some of these debates.

BGR is a wonderful forum to discuss ideas and to find common ground.

Now that the election is over some of the participants are letting the worst qualities of themselves loose, out of frustration. That's ok and I understand the frustration. I was mad for along time.

It's been a blast quarelling with most of you and others,.....well there's the others.


So in closing,......if you really want to put America first it has to start by supporting your President the Commander in Chief of the US Military. We are facing very difficult times and we have to pull together as 1 people not Reds vs Blues as our real enemies would have it, but as Americans.

If we cannot accomplish this, the great experiment of American Democracy is bound to fail.

DevilsWin:devilflam

[Old School]

Now that my man has won I'll be taking a break from the Political Forum for a while.

4 years ago, after seeing what the Right Wing of the conservative movement did to John Kerry I decided that no matter what it took I was going to stand up and challenge every ridiculous statement on this forum. There have been some doosies!

Some on here will never change their views. Others have changd their views over time during some of these debates.

BGR is a wonderful forum to discuss ideas and to find common ground.

Now that the election is over some of the participants are letting the worst qualities of themselves loose, out of frustration. That's ok and I understand the frustration. I was mad for along time.

It's been a blast quarelling with most of you and others,.....well there's the others.


So in closing,......if you really want to put America first it has to start by supporting your President the Commander in Chief of the US Military. We are facing very difficult times and we have to pull together as 1 people not Reds vs Blues as our real enemies would have it, but as Americans.

If we cannot accomplish this, the great experiment of American Democracy is bound to fail.

DevilsWin:devilflam

DW.....I didn't think you were the type to take your ball and go home, here you've bashed Bush and the Republicans for the last few years, now that it's your turn to take the criticism of your man Obama, what do you do, go into hiding.

As you put America first by supporting your current Commander in Chief of our Military, President Bush......I can do that.

I find it ironic that after years of you trying to make it Democrats vs Republicans with the Republicans being the bad guys, while President Bush was in the White House, you now say if we don't pull together our democracy will fail.

I hope you enjoy your little vacation from the Political Fourm.

[guyfawkes]

Thank God Obama won, now maybe we can fix the mess that the Republicans made, but then again, thats the way it usually goes (for more info on this, use a history book and look up the Great Depression and see what party was in power when it began (Republican) and see what party was in power that brought us out of it (Democrat).

[oneijoe]

Thank God Obama won, now maybe we can fix the mess that the Republicans made, but then again, thats the way it usually goes (for more info on this, use a history book and look up the Great Depression and see what party was in power when it began (Republican) and see what party was in power that brought us out of it (Democrat).

While you have that book out, check out what happened to our economy in the late 70's under (Democrat) Jimmy Carter. It took (Republican) Ronald Reagan to get the country back in order.

Also look up "Cold War". The U.S. won, under Reagan, by breaking the U.S.S.R..

[BelfryPride]

Yes We Did!!!!

Obama '08


Hillary In 2012!!!!!!!!!

[sherman14]

And also so go back in that book and look up the Cuban Missle Crisis in 1962. We then had a Democrat in office John Kennedy.

[sherman14]

And yes Obama won but it's now the Republicans time to argue with Democarts over everything Obama screws up on. But if Democrtas wnat to argue they can once again open there history books and see that Republicans have been in the WH more times.

[thecavemaster]

[quote=oneijoe]While you have that book out, check out what happened to our economy in the late 70's under (Democrat) Jimmy Carter. It took (Republican) Ronald Reagan to get the country back in order.

Also look up "Cold War". The U.S. won, under Reagan, by breaking th

What happened to the middle class under Reagan? Under Bush I? On the whole, they didn't thrive.

[oneijoe]

What happened to the middle class under Reagan? Under Bush I? On the whole, they didn't thrive.

Wrong...the 90's brought about one this country's largest economic expansions. Thanks to Reagan's supply side ("trickle-down") economic reforms.

It's nothing more than common sense. The better environment government creates for business, the more people they hire and the more they can pay in salaries/benefits.

Even H.W. Bush and Clinton had enough sense to not undo what the Reagan admin. put in motion.

[thecavemaster]

Wrong...the 90's brought about one this country's largest economic expansions. Thanks to Reagan's supply side ("trickle-down") economic reforms.

It's nothing more than common sense. The better environment government creates for business, the more people they hire and the more they can pay in salaries/benefits.

Even H.W. Bush and Clinton had enough sense to not undo what the Reagan admin. put in motion.

Where are you gaining your facts? According to the Governmental Accounting Office public records, your information is, on the whole, incorrect. The creation of more wealth in a society does not, as a matter of pure correlation, flow downard. Human avarice must be accounted for.

[Beetle01]

Trickle down wealth seems better to me than trickle up poverty.

[thecavemaster]

Trickle down wealth seems better to me than trickle up poverty.

I don't believe your aphorism here quite fathoms the depths of the issue being discussed.

[oneijoe]

I don't believe your aphorism here quite fathoms the depths of the issue being discussed.

I could say the same about your grasp of economics.

[thecavemaster]

I could say the same about your grasp of economics.

Trickle down economics puts money in the flow, I'll grant you that. But, if I understand you right, you are suggesting that that money flows in such a way as to increase the middle class? I'm not sure your grasp of the actual facts makes you an economic genius.

[oneijoe]

Where are you gaining your facts? According to the Governmental Accounting Office public records, your information is, on the whole, incorrect. The creation of more wealth in a society does not, as a matter of pure correlation, flow downard. Human avarice must be accounted for.

I'm not talking about a "class war" (though this how liberals LOVE to label it).

I'm talking about corporation and small business tax rates being low to net more of its earnings, allowing them to hire more people and/or at better pay.

With high tax rates on corporations and small business, there's less money for these entities to expand, retarding economic growth. It's a dead end.

[thecavemaster]

I'm not talking about a "class war" (though this how liberals LOVE to label it).

I'm talking about corporation and small business tax rates being low to net more of its earnings, allowing them to hire more people and/or at better pay.

With high tax rates on corporations and small business, there's less money for these entities to expand, retarding economic growth. It's a dead end.

If you give enough hay to the horses, in time enough "seed" will trickle down to the ground for the sparrows to eat? My thought: through the purposeful use of "faith, hunting, and patriotism" a certain economic theory is advanced, often by conservatives and liberals alike, which leads middle class voters to vote against their own interests as they think they are voting to defend values that no one is going to take away from them.

[Beetle01]

This whole idea of taxing the rich and wealthy to expand the middle class makes no sense.

If you want business's to hire more people and grow their business, you need to tax them less. Much less. Our business taxes should not be where they are at. Our taxes should be at such a rate that every company in the world wants to be located here. Not the total opposite of that.

I'm more for a straight tax, but most are for a progressive tax system. I'd be willing to give on that, if they woudl cut business taxes down to around 20%. Which is still extremely high on the world stage, but 16% lower than what it is now, and 19% lower than under Obama. Then once Obama lets the Bush tax cuts expire, I think it goes up to almost 44%

Now are you gonna payy 44% of your income to taxes when you can go across seas, pay around 20-25% and much cheaper labor on top of that, and no benefits.

[thecavemaster]

This whole idea of taxing the rich and wealthy to expand the middle class makes no sense.

If you want business's to hire more people and grow their business, you need to tax them less. Much less. Our business taxes should not be where they are at. Our taxes should be at such a rate that every company in the world wants to be located here. Not the total opposite of that.

I'm more for a straight tax, but most are for a progressive tax system. I'd be willing to give on that, if they woudl cut business taxes down to around 20%. Which is still extremely high on the world stage, but 16% lower than what it is now, and 19% lower than under Obama. Then once Obama lets the Bush tax cuts expire, I think it goes up to almost 44%

Now are you gonna payy 44% of your income to taxes when you can go across seas, pay around 20-25% and much cheaper labor on top of that, and no benefits.

Walmart provides tons of jobs. Walmart encourages employees to sign up for government benefits. Walmart despises "union talk." Walmart drives small businesses out any place they go. Consider the forces at work within money systems, flows and policies and practices. To me, it's not so much a liberal/conservative thing. I think the, what is it, 5%? of the barons of the earth who own well over half the resources (and that's conservative I think) don't care who has political power that much because, for the most part, their power exceeds in policy making.

[Beetle01]

WalMart only exists the way it does today because of our trade policies. Which both parties are to blame for those. If Wal-Marts taxes were cut down to 20% think of the retirement and insurance packages they could offer employees. Pay raises also.

We can do away with msot of Wal-Mart, while I think it is both good and bad for the communities. What if Wal Mart started out paying employees 10 or 11 bucks a hour, with benefits and a 401k. Not bad for a job that requires no education to do.

I mean what do you want, people who are to lazy to goto school to get paid 30 buck a hour for stocking shelves? You may want to get out of that cave every once in awhile cavemaster.

[thecavemaster]

WalMart only exists the way it does today because of our trade policies. Which both parties are to blame for those. If Wal-Marts taxes were cut down to 20% think of the retirement and insurance packages they could offer employees. Pay raises also.

We can do away with msot of Wal-Mart, while I think it is both good and bad for the communities. What if Wal Mart started out paying employees 10 or 11 bucks a hour, with benefits and a 401k. Not bad for a job that requires no education to do.

I mean what do you want, people who are to lazy to goto school to get paid 30 buck a hour for stocking shelves? You may want to get out of that cave every once in awhile cavemaster.

I am not particularly debating the efficacy of Walmart: I am suggesting that, yes, I would like to see a real debate about what a "Living Wage" might look like. If a "Living Wage" means paying $22 at Walmart instead of the $18 I just paid, I'm for it. I don't know if that would mean $30,000 or not (I doubt it), and while I am for progressive taxation, I am not opposed to an overall evaluation of business taxes in relation to productivity, job creation, etc. I do think average people are more vulnerable to predatory corporate practices. I do think people deserve a living wage.

[DevilsWin]

WalMart only exists the way it does today because of our trade policies. Which both parties are to blame for those. If Wal-Marts taxes were cut down to 20% think of the retirement and insurance packages they could offer employees. Pay raises also.

We can do away with msot of Wal-Mart, while I think it is both good and bad for the communities. What if Wal Mart started out paying employees 10 or 11 bucks a hour, with benefits and a 401k. Not bad for a job that requires no education to do.

I mean what do you want, people who are to lazy to goto school to get paid 30 buck a hour for stocking shelves? You may want to get out of that cave every once in awhile cavemaster.

There is nothing good coming out of Wal-mart. Wal-Mart is just a gigantic Chinese Embassy robbing America of jobs.

[Beetle01]

I am not particularly debating the efficacy of Walmart: I am suggesting that, yes, I would like to see a real debate about what a "Living Wage" might look like. If a "Living Wage" means paying $22 at Walmart instead of the $18 I just paid, I'm for it. I don't know if that would mean $30,000 or not (I doubt it), and while I am for progressive taxation, I am not opposed to an overall evaluation of business taxes in relation to productivity, job creation, etc. I do think average people are more vulnerable to predatory corporate practices. I do think people deserve a living wage.

Thats true, but if WalMArt does become predatory with their prices, a lower tax rate means a starter business can come right in and compete with them, because they will be keeping more of their profits. If they are paying too much of their profits in taxes, Wal_Mart can just undersell them until they go out of business, even if it means operating at a small loss, or minimal gain for Wal-Mart. Thats the nature of the game. Our govt needs to do what it can to keep things fair both the business's and the customers.

First thing is first and that is to bring jobs back to America. Its a very easy solution. Do away with free trade with any country that is not benificial to both us and them. South Korea is one for sure. Mexico is another. Canada is okay because they have the same business practices we do, and its no cheaper for labor in Canada than it is here. Columbia is okay because they import alot from us.

Lower our business tax so that it is competive with the rest of the world market.

You do those things and I'd say youll see an influx of over 3 million very well paying jobs return to America in just a short few years, and many many more in the years after. We should want the world aching for stuff from the USA, not the other way around. you may pay more, but you get a better product. Also the dollar is worth more again.

Next thing is get off foreign oil. Drill now and until it is gone 300 years from now. Surely before then we will have figured out some form of alternate energy that can mostly replace fossil fuels, when also combined with Hydrogen, Solar, and Wind technologies as they get better. They are in no way capable of taking over in the next 50 years, if then.

[thecavemaster]

Thats true, but if WalMArt does become predatory with their prices, a lower tax rate means a starter business can come right in and compete with them, because they will be keeping more of their profits. If they are paying too much of their profits in taxes, Wal_Mart can just undersell them until they go out of business, even if it means operating at a small loss, or minimal gain for Wal-Mart. Thats the nature of the game. Our govt needs to do what it can to keep things fair both the business's and the customers.

First thing is first and that is to bring jobs back to America. Its a very easy solution. Do away with free trade with any country that is not benificial to both us and them. South Korea is one for sure. Mexico is another. Canada is okay because they have the same business practices we do, and its no cheaper for labor in Canada than it is here. Columbia is okay because they import alot from us.

Lower our business tax so that it is competive with the rest of the world market.

You do those things and I'd say youll see an influx of over 3 million very well paying jobs return to America in just a short few years, and many many more in the years after. We should want the world aching for stuff from the USA, not the other way around. you may pay more, but you get a better product. Also the dollar is worth more again.

Next thing is get off foreign oil. Drill now and until it is gone 300 years from now. Surely before then we will have figured out some form of alternate energy that can mostly replace fossil fuels, when also combined with Hydrogen, Solar, and Wind technologies as they get better. They are in no way capable of taking over in the next 50 years, if then.

Walmart makes outrageous profits. China et al. do not have the equivalent of an OSHA to protect workers from predatory practices. I am all for quality jobs (Living Wage) returning to America and willing to compromise on certain taxation policies, or at least debate them. I am willing to consider short-term drilling ideas but want the companies to go ahead and explore all the off shore rights they currently have undrilled. I agree for the most part with many of your points here.