[Pulp Fiction]

For the past few days, this topic had been on my mind. I don't know why... but I do know from past experience... when The Lord puts something on you, you'd better do it.

http://www.bluegrassrivals.com/forum/sho...p?t=159479
^^^^^^^^^^ This thread is one I started in July of last year. And I know people read it and they either enjoyed it or scared them because I got several PM's about it.

Hell is a real place. It's as real as Heaven. Hell is as real as the lakes we fish in, the roads we drive on and the mountains we love in Eastern Kentucky. And we hear the preachers preach on hell.... some have even made a career preaching nothing but "fire and brimstone".


Now here's my vision of hell.......
During your last moment of this life, the body you had will die, but your soul will be alive and will spend eternity in one of two real places. Heaven or Hell. That's it, there are no other options.

When a person arrives in hell........
I believe that they won't feel the fire right off.
I believe they will be able to hear the screams, smell the buring.
I believe that whatever they were afarid of on earth (snakes, spiders, rats, being buried alive, drowing, being raped) will be their first experience. And I believe that will last for hundreds of years if not longer. Death is eternal, the devil is gonna get as much agony from a damned soul as possible.
I believe that your soul will have the same feelins just like if you were on earth. Your gonna have fear, fell pain, and have all your senses. Your natural body would die Infinite times over. From fear, from pain....

Matthew ch. 25 (KJV)
41 - Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew ch. 25 (KJV)
46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Revelation ch. 21 (KJV)
8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

Then after the devil has introduced you to hell.....
I believe you will see ALL THE TIMES YOU WERE IN CHURCH and all the times you had to get saved.
I believe after that, there will be a force pulling you towards the opening of hell. And you are powerless to resist.

Revelation ch. 14 ver. 11 (KJV)
11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I believe the people in hell will be able to see Heaven.
I believe the people in hell will be able to see their loved ones who are still living on earth.

Luke ch. 16 (KJV)
23 - And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 - And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

[WideRight05]

That place scares the daylights out of me.

I just wish I could come to peace as to knowing whether or not I am going to Heaven...I should be more confident in my Salvation.

[cougarpride08]

People who believe in God and doesn't surrender to him really don't have a understanding of what God does with beings he created that doesn't do his will. Eternal punishment means it will never end. People thinks God is not capable of that kind of punishment, but we push him away so much in this world I think the bible said he is slow to anger and great in power. I think that is how it goes. People who turn away from him doesn't have a grasp understanding on what a sinners punishment will be. 15 second look into Hell and 15 secs in heaven would change anyone life.

[LOOKAYANNER]

It does sound like a bad place, but what proofs are there that such place exists? I dont know of any credible evidence of anyone who has ever come back after death to give a detailed decription of it. My view is that if the God of the Bible is "merciful", as is often quoted in the Scriptures, then He would never cast any of his creations into a lake of fire. He wouldn't be so cruel as to torture his inventions for eternity. That is a contradiction. One can't be all merciful and a tormenter at the same time. Perhaps Hell is in the Bible because the men who wrote it knew that they couldn't count on faith alone to convince the flock to become a believer. So they added the scary stuff in it to get the job done.
I don't know the answers to these type questions. I don't think anyone really does, although many people of various religions worldwide will say they do, and quote Scriptures from their holy books to prove it. But I guarantee you that for every scripture one can quote that there are also thousands of other religions throughout the world, some much older than Christianity, that can quote different views. It's a philosophical debate. I believe no one should ever be afraid to ask questions and worry about skepticism when discussing these subjects. No one religion has the 'right' answer. They just believe they do because that's what they have learned in the culture where they were raised. When we consider that almost 40% of the world lives in two countries, China and India, and that their billions are of different religions and beliefs than Christianity, it puts it in a little more perspective in my opinion.

[Pulp Fiction]

It does sound like a bad place, but what proofs are there that such place exists? I dont know of any credible evidence of anyone who has ever come back after death to give a detailed decription of it. My view is that if the God of the Bible is "merciful", as is often quoted in the Scriptures, then He would never cast any of his creations into a lake of fire. He wouldn't be so cruel as to torture his inventions for eternity. That is a contradiction. One can't be all merciful and a tormenter at the same time. Perhaps Hell is in the Bible because the men who wrote it knew that they couldn't count on faith alone to convince the flock to become a believer. So they added the scary stuff in it to get the job done.
I don't know the answers to these type questions. I don't think anyone really does, although many people of various religions worldwide will say they do, and quote Scriptures from their holy books to prove it. But I guarantee you that for every scripture one can quote that there are also thousands of other religions throughout the world, some much older than Christianity, that can quote different views. It's a philosophical debate. I believe no one should ever be afraid to ask questions and worry about skepticism when discussing these subjects. No one religion has the 'right' answer. They just believe they do because that's what they have learned in the culture where they were raised. When we consider that almost 40% of the world lives in two countries, China and India, and that their billions are of different religions and beliefs than Christianity, it puts it in a little more perspective in my opinion.

Thnak you for your input.... Here is my response.
http://www.bluegrassrivals.com/forum/sho...479&page=3

Please read the posts on this thread above ^^^^^^^. I started that thread in July and at the time I didn't undertstand why..... All of these thoughts and verses just started coming to me. Stuff that I had never really thought about before.... so I know it was the Lord who gave me this mission.

So far, every question I have got from PM's or other posts on here have been answered from that thread.

I've not made one change to The Bible... but I could not count the changes it has made it me.

I'll have to take The Bible's word for it that hell does exist, becasue I'm not gonna find out.

[TheRealThing]

This is the way I see it. Whether you believe man is created or, the product of chance through something called evolutionism, you're taking it on faith, (hence the ism). If you believe man is created, you accept the Biblical account of God. If you believe man's account of evolution, then your god is quite literally a rock. Is the Big Bang Theory not based on an exploding space rock? In my mind those are really the only two possibilities. Creation versus chance, God versus rock. I found God because I listened to my conscience, which used to continually prod me to reconcile myself with the Lord. Such is the case with all men, God's own Holy Spirit bears witness of Himself in the centermost part of our being, the soul.

However, not all men will choose to submit to God. And that is the reason that He conceived a plan to, in effect, give man an opportunity to reject Him or accept Him. God's Word to that end is FINAL, and yet, from the time when Satan first twisted God's words in the garden of Eden in the deception of Eve, to present day, men still insist on adding to or taking away from what God has said. We play out our lives on God's stage, planet earth, for the sake of making that very choice. Is God King and man subservient, or is man his own master? Well, for those who inherit eternal life it must be done according to God's plan, as outlined in His Holy Book. Any man who chooses to alter the plan, or do it his way, by definition has opted out by his own choice. So, the power to choose ranks up there with the H Bomb where man's destiny is concerned. The institution of marriage provides the imagery God uses to define our eternal relationship with Him. He first chose us, and we choose Him back. All under the auspices of free will. A fact for which cause, I believe Satan has chosen to attack that very institution by polluting the pure image that God first established between Adam and Eve and which, is defined by one man and one woman for life. Men marrying men is not natural, it is rather a desecration.

If men reject truth what's left? Well, I would think we'd sort of have to dream something up. Man therefore needed to come up with his own word in the form of what he calls 'natural science' to offer an alternative hypothesis as to how he got here on earth. For instance, in lieu of the creation, Darwin came up with the theory of evolution. For which, since it's conception, men have worked feverishly to retro engineer an elaborate framework of supporting data. The body of work which represents the so-called evolution science, is impressive by any standard. But, like I have said, to retro engineer data to support a preconceived concept is cheating at best. And in the case of the true origin of man, all who buy into Darwin's fantasy are cheating themselves out of any chance at eternal life.

Before we start sifting and sorting through God's Word in an effort to decide for ourselves what is true and what is not, we should first establish if we really believe in Him or not. To believe Him is to accept His Word without reservation. In the very same way we know the true 'way' of how to drive to work in the morning, His children know that His Word is perfect, we know the way. Just as those who have not accepted Him are convinced down in their heart, whether they will admit that or not, that they will one day face Him. And, His Word is clear, there is a Hell to shun and a Heaven to gain. The reward of eternal life with God Almighty, is His unspeakably profound gift to a people who have, through their own free will, accepted Him as God and Savior. Equally, the penalty for rejecting so great a reward is profoundly costly. It separates man from the God of light and love for all eternity.
Mark 9:43-44 (KJV)
43" And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Banishment to Hell is forever, never ending. The flame of torment will never stop and the worm will not die. In other words, those who live in Hell will be in a state of dying without ever realizing the fulfillment of death, for ever and ever.

[LOOKAYANNER]

RealThing, your above post mentions evolution vs creation. Basicly one is based on scientific research and years of evaluation that is always subject to change and progress as improvements are made in various science disciplines. Yes, evolution is a theory in general, but almost all the scientific community around the world accept it as fact. The other, creation, is based on faith and the supernatural, or magic, which is okay if all the proof you need is words written 2,000+ years ago by shepherds and other people of the ancient middle eastern world.
I don't think anyone really knows the complete answer to how we got here or what happens afterwards. I tend to lean toward the scientific answer, but I think a large majority of people, in various religions around the world, feel it's safer to apply Pascal's Wager as an insurance policy, which says God may exist or may not exist but it is safer to take the position that He does exist because if He doesn't and there's nothing after we die then we really have't lost anything....but if he does exist then you lose everything. But the question then leads us to which of all the world's religions is the God that is the right one.
And the biggest question of all: If God created the universe and everything in it, who created God?

[TheRealThing]

RealThing, your above post mentions evolution vs creation. Basicly one is based on scientific research and years of evaluation that is always subject to change and progress as improvements are made in various science disciplines. Yes, evolution is a theory in general, but almost all the scientific community around the world accept it as fact. The other, creation, is based on faith and the supernatural, or magic, which is okay if all the proof you need is words written 2,000+ years ago by shepherds and other people of the ancient middle eastern world.
I don't think anyone really knows the complete answer to how we got here or what happens afterwards. I tend to lean toward the scientific answer, but I think a large majority of people, in various religions around the world, feel it's safer to apply Pascal's Wager as an insurance policy, which says God may exist or may not exist but it is safer to take the position that He does exist because if He doesn't and there's nothing after we die then we really have't lost anything....but if he does exist then you lose everything. But the question then leads us to which of all the world's religions is the God that is the right one.
And the biggest question of all: If God created the universe and everything in it, who created God?

Don't get me wrong. If you're dead set to deny that proof of God's existence is lacking, that is your privilege. The point I made at the beginning of my post was it is far easier to accept that all the life and all the matter that makes up the universe was created by God rather than an exploding rock. To that point I would ask, who created the rock?

And, not wanting to appear confrontational but, as I mentioned, acceptance of the notion of evolution is based in faith, not science. The basic surmise dreamed up by Charles Darwin goes as follows. While observing Marine Iguanas that dove under water during high tide to feed on the algae that grows on the rocky shores of the Galapagos Islands, it occurred to Darwin that these lizards must have once lived in the sea. And, that their feeding behavior must be a hold over of that past life, as they re-entered the water each day to feed. The point is, the idea of evolution popped into Darwin's head prior to any known geologic proof or discoveries in the fossil record.

The scientific community has since continued to build and put together a very impressive and extensive body of data to support the basic premise of evolution. The problem with their work is that never has there been found so much as even one transitory life form, an absolute prerequisite to the plausibility of evolution. They have however, concocted all kinds of charts and divisions that depict man's imagined bridges between animals they say evolved into the animals we see around us and are alive today. They retro engineered a hypothesis to give Darwin's theory credibility. Scientists didn't follow a trail of evidence to conclude that man evolved, they took his assumption and used science to build the elaborate guesswork which is the theory of evolution. No transitory life forms, no evolution.

But to your point. I have much more than words written two thousand years ago. The fact that within those words, are thousands of prophesies that have been perfectly fulfilled with out so much as one failure, is none the less incredible in and of itself. Ironically for this discussion, God has revealed Himself to every man through creation. Romans 1:20 (KJV)
20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

BTW, if you're suggesting those who are brave enough to defy God are also willing to risk the Judgment and, those of us who have kneeled before Him are scared. I can live with that. At any rate, whether the words one believes are 2000 years old and inspired by God. Or, 150 years old and written by men. You and I are still compelled to accept them by faith or reject them by contempt.

[LOOKAYANNER]

Don't get me wrong. If you're dead set to deny that proof of God's existence is lacking, that is your privilege. The point I made at the beginning of my post was it is far easier to accept that all the life and all the matter that makes up the universe was created by God rather than an exploding rock. To that point I would ask, who created the rock?

And, not wanting to appear confrontational but, as I mentioned, acceptance of the notion of evolution is based in faith, not science. The basic surmise dreamed up by Charles Darwin goes as follows. While observing Marine Iguanas that dove under water during high tide to feed on the algae that grows on the rocky shores of the Galapagos Islands, it occurred to Darwin that these lizards must have once lived in the sea. And, that their feeding behavior must be a hold over of that past life, as they re-entered the water each day to feed. The point is, the idea of evolution popped into Darwin's head prior to any known geologic proof or discoveries in the fossil record.

The scientific community has since continued to build and put together a very impressive and extensive body of data to support the basic premise of evolution. The problem with their work is that never has there been found so much as even one transitory life form, an absolute prerequisite to the plausibility of evolution. They have however, concocted all kinds of charts and divisions that depict man's imagined bridges between animals they say evolved into the animals we see around us and are alive today. They retro engineered a hypothesis to give Darwin's theory credibility. Scientists didn't follow a trail of evidence to conclude that man evolved, they took his assumption and used science to build the elaborate guesswork which is the theory of evolution. No transitory life forms, no evolution.

But to your point. I have much more than words written two thousand years ago. The fact that within those words, are thousands of prophesies that have been perfectly fulfilled with out so much as one failure, is none the less incredible in and of itself. Ironically for this discussion, God has revealed Himself to every man through creation. Romans 1:20 (KJV)
20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

BTW, if you're suggesting those who are brave enough to defy God are also willing to risk the Judgment and, those of us who have kneeled before Him are scared. I can live with that. At any rate, whether the words one believes are 2000 years old and inspired by God. Or, 150 years old and written by men. You and I are still compelled to accept them by faith or reject them by contempt.

You're vastly over simplifying Darwin's work. And you're also using the age-old method of fear to motivate subjects to faith. Without the threat of fear the numbers of faithful would probably decline. That's one reason it's in most holy books, not just the Bible. It helps with the numbers (and I suppose the offering plate) But I'm not going to get into that. That's a philosophical debate based on opinion.

Also, in your opening paragraph discussing how the universe and life began, you said you'd rather believe that the makeup of the universe was created by God than an "exploding rock". And then you go on to ask, "who created the rock?" Well, I suppose that is a good question, but one would also have to ask, "who created God?" I've read quite a bit about that topic and no one has ever really answered that question with anything that makes any sense to me. You can't have it both ways.

As far as elvolution, it is based on scientific research, not faith. And due to the scientific method used by all scientistist it is an on-going process due to new discoveries and more advanced reasearch over time. Your example of Darwin's work is not being fair to this great man of science. As far as the issue of transitory linage, it has been proven with the fossil record many times, with the most notable being the origin of birds. Archaeopteryx is a genus of theropod dinosaur closely related to birds. It lived around 150 million years ago. It could fly and glide, and fossil records show that it had feathers for an advanced form of flight. Palaeontologist have used the fossil record to trace Archaeopteryx to the origin of birds, basicly the first known feathered bird-like species. This is just one of many scientifically accepted examples of transitory life forms. There are many others but I'm not going to write an essay on this subject.

I have no problem with people believing whatever they want. There's nothing wrong with having faith in a creator if that's what the individual want's to do. Just don't slam the science world while doing it. I have been up and down on this issue for much of my life, and I have not totally ruled out the possibility of a higher power, a creator. But there's no way of ever knowing for sure. It is totally based on faith. However, I consider myself a Freethinker who likes to have logical, provable answers to as many questions as possible. That's not always possible but it's what we need to strive for.
I was raised in a Christian household, my parents were Baptist, as are my brothers and sisters. But as I've gotten older I've been more inclinded to drop the fear and not be afraid to ask questions. The question of who created God is a good one to start with. But there are hundreds more. I decided several years ago if I was going to have faith it was not going to be 'Blind Faith'. I want a reason for it. I've felt more enjoyment reading material about this subject in the area of science. I recently watched a documentary about the origin of the universe on Netflix by the great scientist Stephen Hawkin. He and other scientist are constantly searching for answers through their thought and research. Their ideas and research are very enlightening.

[TheRealThing]

You're vastly over simplifying Darwin's work. And you're also using the age-old method of fear to motivate subjects to faith. Without the threat of fear the numbers of faithful would probably decline. That's one reason it's in most holy books, not just the Bible. It helps with the numbers (and I suppose the offering plate) But I'm not going to get into that. That's a philosophical debate based on opinion.

Also, in your opening paragraph discussing how the universe and life began, you said you'd rather believe that the makeup of the universe was created by God than an "exploding rock". And then you go on to ask, "who created the rock?" Well, I suppose that is a good question, but one would also have to ask, "who created God?" I've read quite a bit about that topic and no one has ever really answered that question with anything that makes any sense to me. You can't have it both ways.

As far as elvolution, it is based on scientific research, not faith. And due to the scientific method used by all scientistist it is an on-going process due to new discoveries and more advanced reasearch over time. Your example of Darwin's work is not being fair to this great man of science. As far as the issue of transitory linage, it has been proven with the fossil record many times, with the most notable being the origin of birds. Archaeopteryx is a genus of theropod dinosaur closely related to birds. It lived around 150 million years ago. It could fly and glide, and fossil records show that it had feathers for an advanced form of flight. Palaeontologist have used the fossil record to trace Archaeopteryx to the origin of birds, basicly the first known feathered bird-like species. This is just one of many scientifically accepted examples of transitory life forms. There are many others but I'm not going to write an essay on this subject.

I have no problem with people believing whatever they want. There's nothing wrong with having faith in a creator if that's what the individual want's to do. Just don't slam the science world while doing it. I have been up and down on this issue for much of my life, and I have not totally ruled out the possibility of a higher power, a creator. But there's no way of ever knowing for sure. It is totally based on faith. However, I consider myself a Freethinker who likes to have logical, provable answers to as many questions as possible. That's not always possible but it's what we need to strive for.
I was raised in a Christian household, my parents were Baptist, as are my brothers and sisters. But as I've gotten older I've been more inclinded to drop the fear and not be afraid to ask questions. The question of who created God is a good one to start with. But there are hundreds more. I decided several years ago if I was going to have faith it was not going to be 'Blind Faith'. I want a reason for it. I've felt more enjoyment reading material about this subject in the area of science. I recently watched a documentary about the origin of the universe on Netflix by the great scientist Stephen Hawkin. He and other scientist are constantly searching for answers through their thought and research. Their ideas and research are very enlightening.

Believe me I'm aware of the science and rationale associated with the theory of evolution. What I have been saying to you is that the science associated with the theory was added after the concept was dreamed up. In other words, there was no evidentiary trail that Darwin followed, that would have led him to a point where he was able to then draw his conclusions. Sorting and stacking proven science to support the theory is the major deception. As you mention, the crown jewel used to validate the discovery of transitory life forms is the example of Archaeopteryx and, said validity is much in dispute. I've not seen any other representations of a transitory life form. And FTR, I'm a big fan of science myself.

In any event, true science never contradicts scripture. And, I know for a fact that God never intended for man to get know Him through scientific investigative efforts. 1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (KJV)
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Simply put, the theory of evolution is meant to give those who prefer not to submit to the authority of God a plausible alternative reality. The theory of evolution provides that alternative, and as you said. It's an ever changing and mutating (evolving if you will) growing repository of man's wisdom.

Therefore, in light of your upbringing and former association with the things of God, we will have to agree to disagree. I went through a time when I felt similarly and God reached out to me anyway, I hope the same for you.

[LOOKAYANNER]

Believe me I'm aware of the science and rationale associated with the theory of evolution. What I have been saying to you is that the science associated with the theory was added after the concept was dreamed up. In other words, there was no evidentiary trail that Darwin followed, that would have led him to a point where he was able to then draw his conclusions. Sorting and stacking proven science to support the theory is the major deception. As you mention, the crown jewel used to validate the discovery of transitory life forms is the example of Archaeopteryx and, said validity is much in dispute. I've not seen any other representations of a transitory life form. And FTR, I'm a big fan of science myself.

In any event, true science never contradicts scripture. And, I know for a fact that God never intended for man to get know Him through scientific investigative efforts. 1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (KJV)
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Simply put, the theory of evolution is meant to give those who prefer not to submit to the authority of God a plausible alternative reality. The theory of evolution provides that alternative, and as you said. It's an ever changing and mutating (evolving if you will) growing repository of man's wisdom.

Therefore, in light of your upbringing and former association with the things of God, we will have to agree to disagree. I went through a time when I felt similarly and God reached out to me anyway, I hope the same for you.

We will just have to agree to disagree, I suppose.
Darwin had an educated guess based on his research and observations, a hypothesis. Obviously he didn't have the use of such scientific methods that were discovered after his death, such ad DNA and radiocarbon dating that other scientists used years later to prove that his hypothesis was actually fact. His genius brain had the original ideas and they have been expanded on ever since by others.

And you haven't answered my question: Who created God? You said some believe that everything began from a exploding rock.....so, who created the rock? And I answered that was a good question, but if you are going to assume that God created the rock then we have to go on and ask the age-old question of 'who or what created God?' No one has ever given me a satisfactory answer to that question that makes a lick of sense to me.

[TheRealThing]

We will just have to agree to disagree, I suppose.
Darwin had an educated guess based on his research and observations, a hypothesis. Obviously he didn't have the use of such scientific methods that were discovered after his death, such ad DNA and radiocarbon dating that other scientists used years later to prove that his hypothesis was actually fact. His genius brain had the original ideas and they have been expanded on ever since by others.

And you haven't answered my question: Who created God? You said some believe that everything began from a exploding rock.....so, who created the rock? And I answered that was a good question, but if you are going to assume that God created the rock then we have to go on and ask the age-old question of 'who or what created God?' No one has ever given me a satisfactory answer to that question that makes a lick of sense to me.

Sorry about that, point taken and here's my answer. Mortal man has a finite existence, a starting point and a day when he departs this earth. So, it is only natural for him to assume that everything else has a starting point as well. And, absolutely everything we see around us, whether by electron microscope or Hubbell Telescope, does indeed have a starting point. The scientific community says that starting point was something they call the big bang. The Christian community (by faith) accepts that the starting point was God breathed. I agree, it seems only natural to think that God must have had a starting point too.

Let me ask you this. Where does space start and where would space end? I believe that God in His wisdom offered the impossibly vast universe as a model for man's mind to sort of have a place to go play. That, and the fact that the vastness of space is indeed infinite, never ending. I dare say that not one man who has ever lived could truly say he can understand that the universe goes on for infinity in every direction without end. Same the thing is true about God, and we men who all have birthdays seem to miss that truth during our deliberations. God has no end, but, what may well be even more challenging for us to wrap our mind around, is the fact that He had no beginning. When Moses asked God His name, God referred to Himself as I AM. God has no beginning and obviously has no end. In fact, God said that He exists outside the constraints of time which, apply only to that which He has created. 2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)
8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Time is something we men use up, it doesn't apply to things that are eternal. For God then, time means nothing, a day is like a thousand years and vice-versa. Not so for men, none of us are eager to see the dawn of our last day on this earth. Space then, is one example of natural phenomena which has no beginning and no end. A point I am sure even Stephen Hawkin would stipulate.

So, will science ever prove the existence of God? Absolutely not. As I mentioned, God created a people to live and enjoy Him forever. However, though He would have all men accept His offer, some (most) choose to reject that offer. Free will, in my mind, is the most powerful tool man was ever given, and governs whether he will choose to submit to God's rule. So, those who will be living with God forever, must choose of their own free will to bow before Him and accept His Lordship. Like I said, man's relationship with God is reflected by the institution of marriage. A relationship instituted by God Himself and formed by the act of mutual choice. Salvation and belief in God (for man) are one in the same. But, don't get the idea that the Lord would intimidate His Creation into submission. James 2:19 (KJV)
19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." Obviously fear alone will save no one. I mean, were not Satan and his minions once with God and were cast out? They were there and chose to rebel. God will never allow Himself to be accepted through science though, neither will science ever disprove His existence either. When He says there is only ONE way to come to know Him, He means without equivocation that one way is non-negotiable. He allowed His Son to die on the cross to provide the only way in which we humans will ever get to know Him. A matter which is "spiritually discerned." No, all men who would come to know Him and believe Him, will come by way of the cross or not at all. The God of all that is, will not have the death of His own Son circumvented by that which He has created.

I said I am a big fan of science. I am no fan of Charles Darwin. Let me show you something he said that most text books would never publish.

CHARLES DARWIN--- "Long before having arrived at this part of my work, a crowd of difficulties will have occurred to the reader. Some of them are so grave that to this day I can never reflect on them without being staggered; but, to the best of my judgment, the greater number are only apparent, and those that are real are not, I think, fatal to my theory.
These difficulties and objections may be classed under the following heads:—

Firstly, why, if species have descended from other species by insensibly fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined?

Secondly, is it possible that an animal having, for instance, the structure and habits of a bat, could have been formed by the modification of some animal with wholly different habits? Can we believe that natural selection could produce, on the one hand, organs of trifling importance, such as the tail of a giraffe, which serves as a fly-flapper, and, on the other hand, organs of such wonderful structure, as the eye, of which we hardly as yet fully understand the inimitable perfection?

Thirdly, can instincts be acquired and modified through natural selection? What shall we say to so marvellous an instinct as that which leads the bee to make cells, which have practically anticipated the discoveries of profound mathematicians?

Fourthly, how can we account for species, when crossed, being sterile and producing sterile offspring, whereas, when varieties are crossed, their fertility is unimpaired?"(pp. 171-172)[17]"


BTW, is it easier on us to accept that we evolved or admit our fallen state and confess our sin before the Omnipotent, God of Creation? Men tend to take the path of least resistance, do they not?

[RoShamBo]

This is my problem with the Baptist viewpoint. You should not live your life in a Christian manner because you are afraid of what might happen to you if you don't but because it is the right thing to do. I was raised in the Southern Baptist Church and I remember the fear I felt because of preachers telling me I'd go to hell if I did this or didn't do that. Then one day I finally reached the age of enlightenment when I realized that a God that really cared about me would not have to threaten me with eternal torture in order for me to be a good man. This is not a knock on Baptists at all, it's just the way I feel. I do consider myself a Christian saved by the grace of God, but not the jealous, vengeful God that I was raised to believe in.

[TheRealThing]

This is my problem with the Baptist viewpoint. You should not live your life in a Christian manner because you are afraid of what might happen to you if you don't but because it is the right thing to do. I was raised in the Southern Baptist Church and I remember the fear I felt because of preachers telling me I'd go to hell if I did this or didn't do that. Then one day I finally reached the age of enlightenment when I realized that a God that really cared about me would not have to threaten me with eternal torture in order for me to be a good man. This is not a knock on Baptists at all, it's just the way I feel. I do consider myself a Christian saved by the grace of God, but not the jealous, vengeful God that I was raised to believe in.

Your location says you are overseas. If that is still true or if you're back home I'd like you to know that I served and I REALLY appreciate your sacrifice.

If all one must do to please Him is to ask forgiveness and be reconciled to Him through the gift of His Son's intermediary gift on the cross, I don't see that as being vengeful. The cost of your life eternal, was paid in full by Christ (His sacrifice). All anyone has to do is accept that by faith.