CHARLESTON, W.Va. (WSAZ) -- With West Virginia's AAA football championship, a few teams are left wondering when the game will be played and who will actually get to compete.
The West Virginia Secondary Schools Activities Co
his follows a decision issued Tuesday by Kanawha County Judge Carrie Webster that allows four previously suspended South Charleston players to compete in the state championship.
The WVSSAC's executive director, Gary Ray, says the commission will appeal Webster's decision to the West Virginia Supreme Court of Appeals.
The suspended South Charleston players were excited when Webster sided with them, but some people are convinced they should have had to sit out after that huge fight during the game against Hurricane November 19.
After that game, South Charleston went on to compete against Brooke, winning 29-28.
"It didn't matter the outcome of the game," says Brook Head Coach Tom Bruney. "Because the truth of the matter was if they did not play the suspended players, which they shouldn't have, we were going to win."
mmission announced Wednesday that Saturday's championship game has been postponed indefinitely.
http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/UPDAT...sions.html
I know this took place in WVA but lets hear everyones thoughts on this..I personally think they should play the game with out the four that had played the week before.
I also think the game should be played. But Brook County should be playing Martinsburg in the finals, not South Charleston playing Martinsburg. South Charleston beat a very good Brooke team by one (1) point, while South Charleston was playing four or five suspended players, due to an injunction by a partisan judge here in Kanawha county. Brooke County's situation was not considered at all in Kanawha County, but an Ohio County judge thought otherwise, and that's why the the championship game has been suspended or canceled. I think that's still up in the air, though.
In regard to South Charleston, the suspended players were all starters, and two could be called "super stars," all state quarterback Tyler Harris, and wide receiver Perry Henry, who is also an all state player. They should not have been playing last Saturday in the South Charleston 29-28 win . This game should have been forfeited and Brooke declared the winner. They were suspended for one game-the next game, but were allowed to play due to an injunction.
What does this teach young men? You break the rules, go get an attorney and litigate? There are no consequences for breaking rules? Or is it going to teach them that they must play by the rules, or suffer the consequences?
I live in Charleston, WV, but do not "have a dog in this fight"
Batpuff Wrote:CHARLESTON, W.Va. (WSAZ) -- With West Virginia's AAA football championship, a few teams are left wondering when the game will be played and who will actually get to compete.
The West Virginia Secondary Schools Activities Co
his follows a decision issued Tuesday by Kanawha County Judge Carrie Webster that allows four previously suspended South Charleston players to compete in the state championship.
The WVSSAC's executive director, Gary Ray, says the commission will appeal Webster's decision to the West Virginia Supreme Court of Appeals.
The suspended South Charleston players were excited when Webster sided with them, but some people are convinced they should have had to sit out after that huge fight during the game against Hurricane November 19.
After that game, South Charleston went on to compete against Brooke, winning 29-28.
"It didn't matter the outcome of the game," says Brook Head Coach Tom Bruney. "Because the truth of the matter was if they did not play the suspended players, which they shouldn't have, we were going to win."
mmission announced Wednesday that Saturday's championship game has been postponed indefinitely.
http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/UPDAT...sions.html
This is exactly why the courts need to stay out of high school athletics.
The member schools of a high school athletic association are just that - MEMBERS. They agree to abide by the rules, regulations and rulings of the organization. If they don't want to abide by them, they should compete elsewhere.
We had a situation where the courts got involved here a few years ago which I felt put a real black eye on the competition that year.
As bad as the KHSAA is,,, nothing compares to the ineptitude of the West Virginia system.
Something has to be done. Its a weird situation.
Were the South Charleston players actually suspended by the WVHSAA? (Assuming thats right.) Did SC knowingly play players who were suspended? In WV if you are tossed from a game is it automatic that you sit out the next game, or does it take the WVHSAA to actually hand down the suspension?
Obviously if they are automatically suspended (which they should be) then SC knowingly played ineligible players and should have to forfeit the win. Now im not sure how that works in a playoff system, has this happened in the past? Could you allow the losing team to go onto the finals, or do you take SC into the finals and sit the players originally suspended? If this is the case, I think the head coach also needs to be punished and excluded from the game for knowingly playing suspended players.
I see a problem with this method though.
Take for instance this weekends semi final game with Bell/Boyd. Most people would say that should of been the finals game. Either team could of had suspended players but went ahead and played them thinking they had a tougher semi final game than they would in the finals. So let them play the semi game, then play the lesser team without the players in the finals.
csabo17 Wrote:Now im not sure how that works in a playoff system, has this happened in the past? Could you allow the losing team to go onto the finals, or do you take SC into the finals and sit the players originally suspended?
It happened here when a team used a player who was ineligible and advanced to the final game. By that time, they couldn't just go back and invite the other semi-final participant to the championship because they'd turned in their pads and hadn't prepared for the game.
csabo17 Wrote:Something has to be done. Its a weird situation.
Were the South Charleston players actually suspended by the WVHSAA? (Assuming thats right.) Did SC knowingly play players who were suspended? In WV if you are tossed from a game is it automatic that you sit out the next game, or does it take the WVHSAA to actually hand down the suspension?
Obviously if they are automatically suspended (which they should be) then SC knowingly played ineligible players and should have to forfeit the win. Now im not sure how that works in a playoff system, has this happened in the past? Could you allow the losing team to go onto the finals, or do you take SC into the finals and sit the players originally suspended? If this is the case, I think the head coach also needs to be punished and excluded from the game for knowingly playing suspended players.
I see a problem with this method though.
Take for instance this weekends semi final game with Bell/Boyd. Most people would say that should of been the finals game. Either team could of had suspended players but went ahead and played them thinking they had a tougher semi final game than they would in the finals. So let them play the semi game, then play the lesser team without the players in the finals.
you proball meabt Bell/Boyle? not Boyd
Yeah sorry, no idea what was in my head when I was typing that. I even looked up the score right before I typed that out lol.
I agree with Know1, you cant bring back the loser. Most times players have turned in equipment and moved on to wrestling/basketball.
In a situation like that you would need a lot of time to break down game films and create and game plan.
EKUAlum05 Wrote:As bad as the KHSAA is,,, nothing compares to the ineptitude of the West Virginia system.
You are correct in your above statement. I heard on a Charleston radio station yesterday something I could hardly believe. The host was interviewing the South Charleston Coach, and they were discussing the rule that states the officials that called the game can NOT review the video, but the school Principal CAN. The South Charleston Principal suspended a couple additional players from school for a few days, due to what he saw on the video. But this has absolutely no affect on the WV School Secondary Athletic Association. they were just suspended from attending classes.
Can you believe this mess? Is there any point in having rules and regulations?
The Contrarian Wrote:You are correct in your above statement. I heard on a Charleston radio station yesterday something I could hardly believe. The host was interviewing the South Charleston Coach, and they were discussing the rule that states the officials that called the game can NOT review the video, but the school Principal CAN. The South Charleston Principal suspended a couple additional players from school for a few days, due to what he saw on the video. But this has absolutely no affect on the WV School Secondary Athletic Association. they were just suspended from attending classes.
Can you believe this mess? Is there any point in having rules and regulations?
For all the people who complain about private schools in Kentucky, they have absolutely nothing on Wheeling Central Catholic.
It can be argued the 1A WCC is the best overall team in WV nearly every year, they dominate the WV 1A schools to the point that they basially have no shot come playoffs.
The kicker is this, of the 10 regular season games this WV school played, how many of those came against out of state teams?
A) 2
B) 3
C) 4
D) 9
That's right. D! They played only one other WV school in the regular season and that was Linsly... a team who did not play a single other WV school in the regular season as well.
EKUAlum05 Wrote:For all the people who complain about private schools in Kentucky, they have absolutely nothing on Wheeling Central Catholic.
It can be argued the 1A WCC is the best overall team in WV nearly every year, they dominate the WV 1A schools to the point that they basially have no shot come playoffs.
The kicker is this, of the 10 regular season games this WV school played, how many of those came against out of state teams?
A) 2
B) 3
C) 4
D) 9
That's right. D! They played only one other WV school in the regular season and that was Linsly... a team who did not play a single other WV school in the regular season as well.
Their whole system is messed up.
I assume they have no district/region alignments? How are the playoffs done each year without them?
cuppett777 Wrote:Could you allow the losing team to go onto the finals, or do you take SC into the finals and sit the players originally suspended? If this is the case, I think the head coach also needs to be punished and excluded from the game for knowingly playing suspended players.
I see a problem with this method though.
I know it is not in Kentucky or WV and not quite the same, but in 1995, it was discovered after the semi-final game that Cincinnati Colerain had been using a fifth year senior DL all season. The discovery was made when the fifth-year senior intercepted a batted pass and the clip was shown as a highlight on TV, then a former player called the school on Monday morning. They had defeated Brunswick in the semi-finals. When the school called the OHSAA on Monday after the semi-finals to report the ineligible player, the OHSAA commissioner immediately disqualified Colerain and advanced Brunswick to the title game. Colerain was also put "on watch" for five years in case it happened again. The OHSAA commissioner used as his justification that that decision was based on what the surrounding states would do in the same situation. Needless to say, Colerain fans are still upset over the situation.
So to answer the question, there has been a situation before in a neighboring state for sitting the winning team and advancing the semi-final loser to the finals.
EKUAlum05 Wrote:For all the people who complain about private schools in Kentucky, they have absolutely nothing on Wheeling Central Catholic.
It can be argued the 1A WCC is the best overall team in WV nearly every year, they dominate the WV 1A schools to the point that they basially have no shot come playoffs.
The kicker is this, of the 10 regular season games this WV school played, how many of those came against out of state teams?
A) 2
B) 3
C) 4
D) 9
That's right. D! They played only one other WV school in the regular season and that was Linsly... a team who did not play a single other WV school in the regular season as well.
A similar situation happened in Ohio in 2010. Stubenville HS, a DIII public school in eastern Ohio, has a hard time getting Ohio schools to play them because of their past success. So this year, they played eight OOS school and two Ohio schools. Further, they played eight of those games at home and one on a neutral field. They ended up 8-2, winning all the OOS games. Under the Harbin system used to determine playoff participants in OH, they earned a home playoff game in the first round, which they promptly lost.
Records against OOS teams do not predict what you will do in your state playoffs.
csabo17 Wrote:I assume they have no district/region alignments? How are the playoffs done each year without them?
Being from WV here's how they determine the top 16 teams in each class make the state playoffs. If you're a single A school and you beat another single A school you get 6 points. Then for every game the team that you beat wins, you get an addition point. So you beat a single "A" school and they will 5 games you get 11 points. If you beat a Double "A" school you get 8 points, if you beat a Triple A team you get 10 points. Then you tally the total points and divide by the number of games you played normally 10. For example you're a single "A" school and you beat the following:
Week 1: You beat a single A school that wins 3 games you get 9 points.
Week 2: you lost to a Double A school: 0 points
Week 3: You beat a Single A school that wins 5 games 11 points
Week 4:; You beat a Triple A school that wins 2 games 12 points
Week 5 you beat a Single A school that wins 4 10 points
Week 6: Single A school that wins 1 game 7 points
Week 7 Double A school that wins 1 game 9 points
Week 8; Single A school that doesn't win a game 6 points
Week 9 Single A that wins 7 games 13 points
Week 10 Single A that wins 2 games 8 points
So you have a total of 85 points divided by 10 for a total of 8.5 points.
Then you have to find who has what points and the top 16 in points makes the playoffs in each class. Hope that makes it clear as mud.
Now I don't blame kids for crossing the river and going to Kentucky schools.
I didnt know John Chapman was coaching South Charleston now!?!?!?!?
Even thought the injunction granted by a local judge for the Pike Central players was for a different reason, maybe this is the course of action that the KHSAA will start using in the future.
Maybe this would stop local judges from getting involved in the first place.
I say let the kids play and see who wins. otherwise it may not even happen.
I dont care what happened in the past, just let them play this one and get it over with then next year set up limitations to where things like this can be avoided.
Wise one Wrote:I know it is not in Kentucky or WV and not quite the same, but in 1995, it was discovered after the semi-final game that Cincinnati Colerain had been using a fifth year senior DL all season. The discovery was made when the fifth-year senior intercepted a batted pass and the clip was shown as a highlight on TV, then a former player called the school on Monday morning. They had defeated Brunswick in the semi-finals. When the school called the OHSAA on Monday after the semi-finals to report the ineligible player, the OHSAA commissioner immediately disqualified Colerain and advanced Brunswick to the title game. Colerain was also put "on watch" for five years in case it happened again. The OHSAA commissioner used as his justification that that decision was based on what the surrounding states would do in the same situation. Needless to say, Colerain fans are still upset over the situation.
So to answer the question, there has been a situation before in a neighboring state for sitting the winning team and advancing the semi-final loser to the finals.
i did not post the above that you quoted,lol, dont know how my name got there..
cuppett777 Wrote:i did not post the above that you quoted,lol, dont know how my name got there..
It was in post #6 above from csabo17, I don't know how you got credited with the statement.
Now even the Mayor of South Charleston is voicing his opinion on this deplorable situation. The main point, I think he is making, is this should have been settled by the following Monday. And, as was mentioned earlier, the SSAC should change its rules, which forbid the officials to review the video. For if they could have watched the video, they would've reviewed Sunday, discussed and made the decision, and it should stand.
It appears that many of these Athletic Associations do not have a clearly written set of rules and regulations. Or they are outdated and sorely need revised.
Moreover, let us keep the local judges out of the equation; these situations should not go that far.
Each situation is different. When the KHSAA is blatantly wrong or any other agency.....someone needs to step in on the kids behalf. Everyone should be allowed due-process....this is what the country was founded on. Findings should not be made on accusations from people that have grudges against a coach/kid/program/administrators or whatever/whoever it may be. An actual investigation of facts should be performed...not allegations. I am just happy that there are still some people in higher positions that are willing to stand up for the kids.......Thank you to Judge Combs and any other person that is an advocate for children. Thank God that there are still a few out there willing to stand up for basic human rights.
IMO the athletic commission should have not allowed the South Charleston v. Brook game to be played that has made this situation even more crazy.
16BBall Fan Wrote:IMO the athletic commission should have not allowed the South Charleston v. Brook game to be played that has made this situation even more crazy.
I believe you are correct. The situation should have been resolved before any action on the field. This would have simplified the playoff scenario.
Hard to do because the courts were closed for the holidays.
Here's a run-down, so far...
South Charleston Defender 1 picks off a Hurricane pass with :16 left in the game to "seal" the win. D2 dives in to celebrate, and makes slight helmet-to-helmet contact with the intended receiver. D3 comes over yakkin' his jaw and gets punched by the IR. Minor brawl ensues. LEOs enter the field; players (and refs?) get pepper-sprayed. Refs talk, then leave the field.
Word is...
2 SC players got ejected on the spot. Later, SC finds out 5 got ejected. Discrepency in lists led refs to file multiple reports, some after the 24 hour period. At least 1 ref asked a film guy for the game film, but the guy had already given the film to the coach, leading some to think they used video. Reports were modified after talking to the coach, since he had 11 players leaving the bench area to go out on offense. None of the filed reports ejected the IR, who threw the first punch.
What IS known...
SC was out of school all week for Thanksgiving. WV has no appeals process. SC parents went to court to get a Temp. Restraining Order to allow their kids to play in the semis, because they weren't ejected properly. Judge grants TRO 2 days before Thanksgiving - kids play in the semis and beat Brooke.
Monday after Thanksgiving, Brooke shows up and wants to be added - Judge says no, so Brooke goes to THEIR local court and gets a RO to prevent the finals from being played under the other cases is finalized. Judge hears testimony from players, refs, the WVSSAC, and the coaches. BTW, judge, the WV rules say that an ejected player must sit out the next regularly scheduled contest, and playoff games aren't RSCs. (The WVSSAC HAS had kids sit-out post-season contests before.) Both coaches testify they had 10 RSC's this season. Judge agrees with parents - kids were/still are eligible. WVSSAC flies an appeal, so case isn't final, so no AAA title game today.
end-of-game video :
Huntington's WSAZ-TV's reports with links to court papers :
http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/UPDAT...sions.html
(it's being updated like a blog, so start at the bottom)
csabo17 Wrote:I assume they have no district/region alignments? How are the playoffs done each year without them?
You have to play 5 games in your Group or higher.
Ratings points awarded for win, bonus points for wins by teams you beat.
Top 16 teams in each Group, based on ratings, make the playoffs.
#1 seed hosts #16 seed, etc.
Finals played in Wheeling.