Bluegrassrivals

Can't post over there so thought I'd start it over here. I think that in KY the talent is cut down sooooo much. Like in the O'boro area or BG area. You have 4 or 5 high schools!!! And the flagship schools in both areas aren't your largest schools population wise. In Ohio a city like Lima/Allen Co. (comparable to O'boro or BG) might have 4 or 5 schools BUT Lima Sr. high is the main school. The city supports that school more so then the others. In KY the county rules....

I wouldn't say its better a lot of the Louisville schools and nky schools routinely play and beat Ohio schools

Not at the Ohio D1 level. This year alone Simon Kenton, Cov Cath, Manual (upcoming thrashing), and several others will be victims. It hasn't been pretty for the boys from KY....Wondering what folks think is the reason for the dominance....

Population is much greater in Ohio than Kentucky. Ohio has a lot of urban areas throughout their state to our much more rural areas.

When most of your schools have 1500-3000 students at majority of your schools you're going to have some good athletic programs. In Kentucky we probably average 800-1000 students per school. Big difference.

There are other reasons to why Ohio schools are better than most Kentucky schools also, but I do believe population plays the biggest role.

More interest.
Cleveland Browns, Cincinnati Bengals, Canton Ohio Hall of Fame, Ohio State,
Cincinnati Bearcats, Miami, Toledo, Dayton not to mention the Northern Ohio High Schools.

The highest level of football played in Ky. is the SEC games.

All about the numbers.

Population is the answer. Ohio has almost triple the population that Kentucky has. Ohio has over 11,000,000 while Kentucky has a little over 4,000,000.

tomcatfan722000 Wrote:I wouldn't say its better a lot of the Louisville schools and nky schools routinely play and beat Ohio schools

You better check your records a little closer. Louisville and NKY schools occasionally beat Ohio schools but not routinely. It's rare for it to happen.

BlackcatAlum Wrote:Population is much greater in Ohio than Kentucky. Ohio has a lot of urban areas throughout their state to our much more rural areas.

When most of your schools have 1500-3000 students at majority of your schools you're going to have some good athletic programs. In Kentucky we probably average 800-1000 students per school. Big difference.

There are other reasons to why Ohio schools are better than most Kentucky schools also, but I do believe population plays the biggest role.

We had this same discussion last year on this forum and I did a great deal of research and debunked this whole bigger schools myth. I'll have to look the numbers up again but the biggest schools in Kentucky are just as big and many times are bigger than the biggest schools in Ohio. I'll get back in a few days with actual numbers.

BluegrassBuckeye Wrote:We had this same discussion last year on this forum and I did a great deal of research and debunked this whole bigger schools myth. I'll have to look the numbers up again but the biggest schools in Kentucky are just as big and many times are bigger than the biggest schools in Ohio. I'll get back in a few days with actual numbers.

The difference is that they are more big schools. Yes Kentucky may have 20 schools as big as any schools in Ohio but Ohio may have 100 schools after that bigger then any of the other schools in Kentucky.

The simple answer is that people in Ohio LOVE football. Ohio State packs 105,000 + into Ohio Stadium on Saturdays and could probably put in twice that number if the stadium would hold them. Boys are handed a football almost at birth. Better coaches at all levels too. It's just a way of life. When I moved to Kentucky ten years ago, the disparity between the two states high school football programs was very obvious. The gap has closed a little though. Kentucky football is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was then.

OrangenowBlue Wrote:The difference is that they are more big schools. Yes Kentucky may have 20 schools as big as any schools in Ohio but Ohio may have 100 schools after that bigger then any of the other schools in Kentucky.

Very true, but that has nothing to do with why Ohio schools almost always win when playing Kentucky schools of the same size or bigger.

BluegrassBuckeye Wrote:The simple answer is that people in Ohio LOVE football. Ohio State packs 105,000 + into Ohio Stadium on Saturdays and could probably put in twice that number if the stadium would hold them. Boys are handed a football almost at birth. Better coaches at all levels too. It's just a way of life. When I moved to Kentucky ten years ago, the disparity between the two states high school football programs was very obvious. The gap has closed a little though. Kentucky football is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was then.

I agree with that. Now basketball is a different story. But you're absolutely correct, football is much bigger in Ohio, therefore they are better. Basketball is much bigger in Kentucky, therefore we are better. Simple as that.

Many of the same things that make some teams in Kentucky outstanding, while others are mired in mediocrity, differentiate the quality of football in Ohio from the quality of football in Kentucky. These include:

1. Much greater history and tradition
2. Community and parental support is vastly stronger
3. Better overall coaching
4. Work harder in offseason programs
5. Better facilities
6. Not as restrictive on school size
7. More urban areas, which makes it easier to get to and from practice.
8. Much higher population, offers more potential for more size and speed.
9. Football is the most important secondary sport in the state.

Why is Georgia football or florida better than KY or OHIO? CAUSE THEY LIVE FOOTBALL AND HAVE HUGE INVESTORS/SPONSORS asking why a state is better is plain obvious in most cases

Why can't a state be a two sport state. If you just want one sport to succeed you are being kind of selfish. Football has caught up with basketball in Kentucky as far as popularity but basketball is still popular also. In Florida and Georgia, in basketball they will have superior athletes then Kentucky but their coaches are pitiful, their gyms look like Kentucky grade school gyms and they get no support. They play football year around in lavish stadiums. I am proud to be from a state where both sports are now held in high regard.

vundy33 Wrote:I agree with that. Now basketball is a different story. But you're absolutely correct, football is much bigger in Ohio, therefore they are better. Basketball is much bigger in Kentucky, therefore we are better. Simple as that.

What if I threw a monkey wrench into things and said that Ohio leads the Ohio - Kentucky basketball all star game series AND produces far more D1 college basketball talent? What if I asked why UK has very few Kentucky kids on its roster year in and year out if the high school basketball is so good? Turn back to football and you'll see that Ohio State's football roster is overwhelmingly made up of Ohio kids every year. Things to ponder.

vundy33 Wrote:I agree with that. Now basketball is a different story. But you're absolutely correct, football is much bigger in Ohio, therefore they are better. Basketball is much bigger in Kentucky, therefore we are better. Simple as that.

I disagree with you vundy, basketball is not better either. Look at your records with the big schools. In Cincinnati, Dayton, Columbus and Cleveland are better than NKY, Lexington and Louisville. I've seen many games with these areas, and KY loses many more than they win.

It is purley due to population. There was a thread going around on football about if you combined your county to make a team. Well, it would take a county to make the same comparison to the cities in Ohio.

The actual numbers seem to throw a bit of a monkey wrench into the school size / state population argument. Both states have six classes for football and in every case except one the Kentucky school was bigger by wide margins when comparing the 2009 state champs side by side for boys enrollment. Now, I know there are different guidelines for assigning classes in each state but these numbers clearly show a good snapshot.

OH / KY

I / 6A - Hilliard Davidson 866 / St. Xavier 1,456
II / 5A - Winton Woods 477 / Highlands 425
III / 4A - Youngstown Mooney 252 / Boyle County 469
IV / 3A - Kettering Alter 236 / Paducah Tighlman 397
V / 2A - Youngstown Ursuline 173 / Fort Campbell 379
VI / 1A - Norwalk St. Paul 97 / Lexington Christian 231

The one exception is Highlands which plays up a class. For Highlands to beat teams twice it's size on a regular basis even further debunks the size myth.

Were the teams paired above to play head to head last season, the Ohio team would be heavy favorites in four games. Exceptions would be Winton Woods vs Highlands where Highlands would be favored and Norwalk St. Paul versus Lex Christian which would be a toss up most likely.

Size doesn't matter. :Thumbs:

It's true that both states have the same number of divisions. But Ohio has 700+ schools playing in those 6 divisions where Kentucky has around 200.
At that ratio KY should only have 2 divisions. With only the best 16 teams making the playoffs. How would that change the landscape of Ky football?
Yes it's a numbers thing... Numbers of schools competing.

nky Wrote:It's true that both states have the same number of divisions. But Ohio has 700+ schools playing in those 6 divisions where Kentucky has around 200.
At that ratio KY should only have 2 divisions. With only the best 16 teams making the playoffs. How would that change the landscape of Ky football?
Yes it's a numbers thing... Numbers of schools competing.

Statistically speaking, the number of schools competing has no bearing at all on the argument. The number of schools competing would only be relevant if we were to have an all star game between the two states. Ohio would have a clear advantage not only for the level of competition but from the shear number of players to choose from. The prevailing argument on this board has always been that Ohio has more population and bigger schools. That clearly is not the case. Using the population argument, New York has much better football than Ohio, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, etc...

BluegrassBuckeye Wrote:Statistically speaking, the number of schools competing has no bearing at all on the argument. The number of schools competing would only be relevant if we were to have an all star game between the two states. Ohio would have a clear advantage not only for the level of competition but from the shear number of players to choose from. The prevailing argument on this board has always been that Ohio has more population and bigger schools. That clearly is not the case. Using the population argument, New York has much better football than Ohio, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, etc...

yet in KY you don't have to win a game and make the playoffs where in Ohio you could win every game and still not make the playoffs. Just by shear numbers you will have a higher level of competition with more numbers. So the top % will be better

nky Wrote:yet in KY you don't have to win a game and make the playoffs where in Ohio you could win every game and still not make the playoffs. Just by shear numbers you will have a higher level of competition with more numbers. So the top % will be better

The best will make it to the top regardless of how they get there. Once again though this has nothing to do with state or school population. Ohio football is better because it's been a big deal for a long time. More history, more tradition, better coaches, better feeder programs, etc...

nky Wrote:yet in KY you don't have to win a game and make the playoffs where in Ohio you could win every game and still not make the playoffs. Just by shear numbers you will have a higher level of competition with more numbers. So the top % will be better

Everybody makes the playoffs in Indiana and Indiana football is also better than Kentucky football. IMO, Indiana's playoff system is superior to either Ohio's or Kentucky's. Young teams in Indiana do not throw in the towel after a few losses because players know that they will have a chance to redeem themselves with a strong playoff run. Nor do they look for cupcakes to play in Kentucky to play to pad their Harbin ratings, as Ohio teams do.

Hoot Gibson Wrote:Everybody makes the playoffs in Indiana and Indiana football is also better than Kentucky football. IMO, Indiana's playoff system is superior to either Ohio's or Kentucky's. Young teams in Indiana do not throw in the towel after a few losses because players know that they will have a chance to redeem themselves with a strong playoff run. Nor do they look for cupcakes to play in Kentucky to play to pad their Harbin ratings, as Ohio teams do.

I don't see any Ohio powerhouses scheduling out of state cupcakes. Typically they schedule other states top teams. What cupcakes are you referring too and who scheduled them? I'm not saying that it has never happened but it is the exception; not the rule.

Stardust Wrote:I disagree with you vundy, basketball is not better either. Look at your records with the big schools. In Cincinnati, Dayton, Columbus and Cleveland are better than NKY, Lexington and Louisville. I've seen many games with these areas, and KY loses many more than they win.

It is purley due to population. There was a thread going around on football about if you combined your county to make a team. Well, it would take a county to make the same comparison to the cities in Ohio.

The bigger the urban areas, the better the athletes. In basketball, Ohio wil win many of the times but I do not think they are better coached, they just have the better athletes. In Football, it is a different story, and they do have superior coaches, facilities, feeder programs, and fan support.

I think any playoff system based on ratings is flawed. I would never agree for Kentucky to go to ratings system to determine what teams make the playoffs. The BCS is a prime example of incompetence. They want to add teams to the NCAA mens basketball tournament which isn't broken and they don't want to fix the BCS which is broken.

BluegrassBuckeye Wrote:The actual numbers seem to throw a bit of a monkey wrench into the school size / state population argument. Both states have six classes for football and in every case except one the Kentucky school was bigger by wide margins when comparing the 2009 state champs side by side for boys enrollment. Now, I know there are different guidelines for assigning classes in each state but these numbers clearly show a good snapshot.

OH / KY

I / 6A - Hilliard Davidson 866 / St. Xavier 1,456
II / 5A - Winton Woods 477 / Highlands 425
III / 4A - Youngstown Mooney 252 / Boyle County 469
IV / 3A - Kettering Alter 236 / Paducah Tighlman 397
V / 2A - Youngstown Ursuline 173 / Fort Campbell 379
VI / 1A - Norwalk St. Paul 97 / Lexington Christian 231

The one exception is Highlands which plays up a class. For Highlands to beat teams twice it's size on a regular basis even further debunks the size myth.

Were the teams paired above to play head to head last season, the Ohio team would be heavy favorites in four games. Exceptions would be Winton Woods vs Highlands where Highlands would be favored and Norwalk St. Paul versus Lex Christian which would be a toss up most likely.

Size doesn't matter. :Thumbs:

How many of these are private schools from large cities? I would say most are that is a huge advantage.

OrangenowBlue Wrote:The bigger the urban areas, the better the athletes. In basketball, Ohio wil win many of the times but I do not think they are better coached, they just have the better athletes. In Football, it is a different story, and they do have superior coaches, facilities, feeder programs, and fan support.

Fair. I can buy into that argument :Thumbs: