Don't Know Much About The Veer And How Its Ran!
The Double Wing Offense Has Helped Estill Out Alot, Its Also Helped Other Schools That Has Ran It, Like A State Championship For A School Out In California!
i have heard that there both similar!
This Is Not About Teams, Just The Offense's!
Which One Do You Prefer/Like Best?
The Veer option is generally regarded as a "triple option". It is designed as a Four back attack with one player taking a dive course, one taking a pitch course and another being a lead blocker on the perimeter of the offensive formation. The QB makes reads on defensive players and then distributes the ball according to the defensive reaction to the offense
The veer can be dangerous! If you have QB that is smart and somewhat athletic, a brusing full back, and someone who can just catch a pitch, then you are going to be cooking with hot grease. The key is the QB realizing when to pull the ball.
The triple option is one of the great equalizers in high school football. It allows you to compete with less talent. Contrary to popular belief, you do not have to have great athletes at quarterback to be successful. You simply need smart, hard-nosed, and disciplined players.
The QB doesn't have to be super smart...to be honest all he has to do is be able to follow 2 simple rules: Give Unless and Pitch Unless. Give the ball unless the hand off key has his head and shoulders facing down the line of scrimmage...(on a pull read) pitch the ball every time unless the pitch key is playing the pitch solely. That's it. Not hard at all.
You don't see a lot of true option football teams in Kentucky anymore...majority of them are spread and throw or polar opposites with a power game. Isn't Lawrence County a triple option team? Any other's in the area?
Go Eagles Wrote:The QB doesn't have to be super smart...to be honest all he has to do is be able to follow 2 simple rules: Give Unless and Pitch Unless. Give the ball unless the hand off key has his head and shoulders facing down the line of scrimmage...(on a pull read) pitch the ball every time unless the pitch key is playing the pitch solely. That's it. Not hard at all.
You don't see a lot of true option football teams in Kentucky anymore...majority of them are spread and throw or polar opposites with a power game. Isn't Lawrence County a triple option team? Any other's in the area?
You are right. You don't need a super smart QB just one that has the ability to recognize when to pull, pitch or keep. That requires a little bit of intellegence. A good power team will have a variation of the veer such as the belly.
For High School I gotta go with the Double Wing. I just feel like for High School football players the Veer is very, very risky. Very easy to make game changing mistakes running the Veer. Not saying that teams don't run it well, I got the Veer crammed down my throat every time Somerset played Southwestern when I was in high school. However, I feel like for high school players the Veer can be risky. Honestly I'm not the hugest fan of either because I feel like the Double Wing is kind of reliant on athletes, but if I was coaching my own team and those were my two options I would go with the Double Wing.
That being said, I LOVE Georgia Tech's version of the Triple Option, just like watching the old Veer game.
The Veer isn't a formation. Its a play. You can run the Veer out of the DB Wing. Personally I am a Veer fanatic. I have attended clinics with Coach Pat Chitwood of ST. X and many others. Now if your wanting to know about the SBV vs the Double Wing Tr. Opt the SBV in my eyes wins. For the record the triple option most teams run isnt the true Veer. The true Veer was made up by Coach Yeoman from Houston in 1968, I honestly haven't seen a true SBV team since SDSU in the 80's.
Real Badman Wrote:The Veer isn't a formation. Its a play. You can run the Veer out of the DB Wing. Personally I am a Veer fanatic. I have attended clinics with Coach Pat Chitwood of ST. X and many others. Now if your wanting to know about the SBV vs the Double Wing Tr. Opt the SBV in my eyes wins. For the record the triple option most teams run isnt the true Veer. The true Veer was made up by Coach Yeoman from Houston in 1968, I honestly haven't seen a true SBV team since SDSU in the 80's.
Arent their different "veer" plays where they attack different locations on the line with the "Lead Dive"? Almost called an " Insive Veer " and " Outsidve Veer " depending where the FB hits the line of scrimmage??
Go Eagles Wrote:The QB doesn't have to be super smart...to be honest all he has to do is be able to follow 2 simple rules: Give Unless and Pitch Unless. Give the ball unless the hand off key has his head and shoulders facing down the line of scrimmage...(on a pull read) pitch the ball every time unless the pitch key is playing the pitch solely. That's it. Not hard at all.
You don't see a lot of true option football teams in Kentucky anymore...majority of them are spread and throw or polar opposites with a power game. Isn't Lawrence County a triple option team? Any other's in the area?
During the glory years in the 90's LC was a true triple-option team..even ran the double-option ( belly series ) but as of last year the Dawgs were straight Double-Wing.
StrayBullet Wrote:Arent their different "veer" plays where they attack different locations on the line with the "Lead Dive"? Almost called an " Insive Veer " and " Outsidve Veer " depending where the FB hits the line of scrimmage??
OSV and ISV are different plays. Actually you are pretty dead on. On OSV the FB would hit the 6/5 hole rather on ISV it would be the 4/3 holes. Other then that the two plays are the same Your QB will read the first man past the tackle unblocked, decide to give or pull from there. 2nd back would still run the pitch pattern.
Real Badman Wrote:OSV and ISV are different plays. Actually you are pretty dead on. On OSV the FB would hit the 6/5 hole rather on ISV it would be the 4/3 holes. Other then that the two plays are the same Your QB will read the first man past the tackle unblocked, decide to give or pull from there. 2nd back would still run the pitch pattern.
The 2nd and 3rd options are to QB keep if the DE doesnt come up the line and/or pitch if he does come down the line towards the QB. I have always taught that if the DE is on the QB's outside shoulder and fading towards the sideline for the QB to tuck it and keep. Anything else you make him come to you and then pitch.
StrayBullet Wrote:The 2nd and 3rd options are to QB keep if the DE doesnt come up the line and/or pitch if he does come down the line towards the QB. I have always taught that if the DE is on the QB's outside shoulder and fading towards the sideline for the QB to tuck it and keep. Anything else you make him come to you and then pitch.
Good addition, we should start a coaching clinic. Personally I'm more of a Midline opt rather then a ISV guy myself.
Real Badman Wrote:Good addition, we should start a coaching clinic. Personally I'm more of a Midline opt rather then a ISV guy myself.
I prefer the "Veer" when its ran right..with a good FB and a smart QB its almost too easy to get that offense going. Lawrence County ran the double-wing this past year and had a lot of success with it. The had some plays that took a long time to develop and thats what I prefer the "Veer". It can wear you down and then BOOM!!! someone makes the wrong read on defense and your TB or FB is busting for 15+ yards. I always love attending coaching clinics...let me know :1:
StrayBullet Wrote:I prefer the "Veer" when its ran right..with a good FB and a smart QB its almost too easy to get that offense going. Lawrence County ran the double-wing this past year and had a lot of success with it. The had some plays that took a long time to develop and thats what I prefer the "Veer". It can wear you down and then BOOM!!! someone makes the wrong read on defense and your TB or FB is busting for 15+ yards. I always love attending coaching clinics...let me know :1:
I see your referring to running the OSV out of the Db wing. Its not as effective rather then the SB system. But I guess each coach has his own thing.
Real Badman Wrote:I see your referring to running the OSV out of the Db wing. Its not as effective rather then the SB system. But I guess each coach has his own thing.
Actually I prefer the "Veer" out of the Power I or Wishbone..running "Veer" out of the double-wing takes too long and you have to set a man in motion to the side of the ball where the play is going ( or use him as a decoy and counter against the motion..get the LB's leaning one way and use to seeing that motion coming to them ) but the timing with the "Veer" in the double-wing has to be almost perfect each time out.
Double Wing: People call different things double wing. The true double wing is what Estill Co runs. It's foot to foot splits, block everything down and kick out with a lead almost like counter tre. The fullback is very tight to the QB and it hits quick. If run right it's a bear to stop. Tough to pass out of other than play action because everything is so compact. I guess you could have a bunch series out of it.
Lawrence Co runs 2 wings a good bit but it's much more of a WingT scheme (double wing has some WingT principles).
Georgetown College won a lot of their early championships mixing the 2 with an unbalanced set around the goalline. They ran WingT principles along with some option. They also incorperated some run and shoot stuff.
Veer: Triple Option which has been mentioned. There are several different options. Midline is mostly a double option where the FB aims at the crack of the center. Inside Veer he's over the guard. Outside veer he's over the Tackle. Speed option option out between QB+TB a lot of times out of gun. Load option and lead option are speed options with fullback lead blocking. GT also runs a counter option to keep teams from rolling the secondary to their motion. Cowboy option is basically speed option but the slot back is now the pitch man. Some high school teams in Texas started pairing the zone read (which is a double option with QB reading end man on the line of scrimmage out of gun) with the bubble a lot of spread teams throw. It's another way to run triple option. You can add a pitch to zone read too.
Delta State was the first team I ever saw run the toughest offense I think I've seen. They ran the 2 wing set GT runs and ran the option like them. Unlike GT they ran the run and shoot to perfeection so you COULD NOT load up vs the run. They won it all. I used to have the playbook somewhere. It was called the Triple Shoot.
Nebraska ran the veer from the I and Power I back in the day. To a lot of peoples suprise they also ran a good bit of zone and zone option. The split back veer in it's day was a bear. ST X in KY runs it as well as any high school team I've seen.
You can run option from about any formation. WingT, I, Maryland I, Split BAck, Gun etc. It's all about the blocking schemes and knowing what people to block and what people to read.
bulldog42 Wrote:Double Wing: People call different things double wing. The true double wing is what Estill Co runs. It's foot to foot splits, block everything down and kick out with a lead almost like counter tre. The fullback is very tight to the QB and it hits quick. If run right it's a bear to stop. Tough to pass out of other than play action because everything is so compact. I guess you could have a bunch series out of it.
Lawrence Co runs 2 wings a good bit but it's much more of a WingT scheme (double wing has some WingT principles).
Georgetown College won a lot of their early championships mixing the 2 with an unbalanced set around the goalline. They ran WingT principles along with some option. They also incorperated some run and shoot stuff.
Veer: Triple Option which has been mentioned. There are several different options. Midline is mostly a double option where the FB aims at the crack of the center. Inside Veer he's over the guard. Outside veer he's over the Tackle. Speed option option out between QB+TB a lot of times out of gun. Load option and lead option are speed options with fullback lead blocking. GT also runs a counter option to keep teams from rolling the secondary to their motion. Cowboy option is basically speed option but the slot back is now the pitch man. Some high school teams in Texas started pairing the zone read (which is a double option with QB reading end man on the line of scrimmage out of gun) with the bubble a lot of spread teams throw. It's another way to run triple option. You can add a pitch to zone read too.
Delta State was the first team I ever saw run the toughest offense I think I've seen. They ran the 2 wing set GT runs and ran the option like them. Unlike GT they ran the run and shoot to perfeection so you COULD NOT load up vs the run. They won it all. I used to have the playbook somewhere. It was called the Triple Shoot.
Nebraska ran the veer from the I and Power I back in the day. To a lot of peoples suprise they also ran a good bit of zone and zone option. The split back veer in it's day was a bear. ST X in KY runs it as well as any high school team I've seen.
You can run option from about any formation. WingT, I, Maryland I, Split BAck, Gun etc. It's all about the blocking schemes and knowing what people to block and what people to read.
I was waiting for you to jump this thread
bulldog42 Wrote:Double Wing: People call different things double wing. The true double wing is what Estill Co runs. It's foot to foot splits, block everything down and kick out with a lead almost like counter tre. The fullback is very tight to the QB and it hits quick. If run right it's a bear to stop. Tough to pass out of other than play action because everything is so compact. I guess you could have a bunch series out of it.
Lawrence Co runs 2 wings a good bit but it's much more of a WingT scheme (double wing has some WingT principles).
Georgetown College won a lot of their early championships mixing the 2 with an unbalanced set around the goalline. They ran WingT principles along with some option. They also incorperated some run and shoot stuff.
Veer: Triple Option which has been mentioned. There are several different options. Midline is mostly a double option where the FB aims at the crack of the center. Inside Veer he's over the guard. Outside veer he's over the Tackle. Speed option option out between QB+TB a lot of times out of gun. Load option and lead option are speed options with fullback lead blocking. GT also runs a counter option to keep teams from rolling the secondary to their motion. Cowboy option is basically speed option but the slot back is now the pitch man. Some high school teams in Texas started pairing the zone read (which is a double option with QB reading end man on the line of scrimmage out of gun) with the bubble a lot of spread teams throw. It's another way to run triple option. You can add a pitch to zone read too.
Delta State was the first team I ever saw run the toughest offense I think I've seen. They ran the 2 wing set GT runs and ran the option like them. Unlike GT they ran the run and shoot to perfeection so you COULD NOT load up vs the run. They won it all. I used to have the playbook somewhere. It was called the Triple Shoot.
Nebraska ran the veer from the I and Power I back in the day. To a lot of peoples suprise they also ran a good bit of zone and zone option. The split back veer in it's day was a bear. ST X in KY runs it as well as any high school team I've seen.
You can run option from about any formation. WingT, I, Maryland I, Split BAck, Gun etc. It's all about the blocking schemes and knowing what people to block and what people to read.
You make a good point and all, but the double wing Estill ran is not the true double wing. It was made up by some coach in California. Im not sure of his name. The original DBW is a predominant running formation derived from the wishbone formation. Im not too familiar with the distinct history of it but I do know the double wing Estill runs is not the true DBW.
And some side notes:
Often times in Estill's offense, they wont completely down block. There is a line audible for that called 'domino'. Your BSG and BGT will pull into the hole kickout and seal respectfully.
Other then that I commend you on your intelligence of this topic. Congrats.
Real Badman Wrote:You make a good point and all, but the double wing Estill ran is not the true double wing. It was made up by some coach in California. Im not sure of his name. The original DBW is a predominant running formation derived from the wishbone formation. Im not too familiar with the distinct history of it but I do know the double wing Estill runs is not the true DBW.
And some side notes:
Often times in Estill's offense, they wont completely down block. There is a line audible for that called 'domino'. Your BSG and BGT will pull into the hole kickout and seal respectfully.
Other then that I commend you on your intelligence of this topic. Congrats.
The zone read with the pitch man coming in motion from the slot also can include the forward lateral ala the Florida Gators right??
EDIT: This is out of a 2-back set out of the Gun.
I assume it could. Its more of a lead opt. pass then anything.
Bulldog42,
I was trying to remember..in the late 90's when LC was very successful with the belly-read did they include wide splits along the line???
is the bone formation like the offensive yall talking about
cavery59 Wrote:is the bone formation like the offensive yall talking about
You can run the Veer out of a wishbone. Like I have said before I am a true blue SBV guy.
Real Badman Wrote:You make a good point and all, but the double wing Estill ran is not the true double wing. It was made up by some coach in California. Im not sure of his name. The original DBW is a predominant running formation derived from the wishbone formation. Im not too familiar with the distinct history of it but I do know the double wing Estill runs is not the true DBW.
And some side notes:
Often times in Estill's offense, they wont completely down block. There is a line audible for that called 'domino'. Your BSG and BGT will pull into the hole kickout and seal respectfully.
Other then that I commend you on your intelligence of this topic. Congrats.
I haven't seen Estill just heard they were running the true double wing. Don't really know for sure. Here is a link to the Godfather of the true double wing. I think you can get videos off of that site. If you research his name some you can probably dig up playbooks videos etc. Don Markham.
http://www.coachmarkham.com/
Stray LC ran a lot of what Belfry does. A lot of people from other states call it the double dive Chuke called it Belly Read (some confusion sometimes because Belly is a staple in the WingT and a totally different play). Chuke ran a lot of Belly and short Belly which changes the aiming point for the FB and the read key for the QB. When teams overplayed that side he ran Inside Veer to the 1 tech weakside. The luxury that team had is that you couldn't bring safeties in the box because you left Parker one on one and he was arguably top 2 and definatly top 5 high school WR in KY history. I coached Gerad his Fresh year and Spence. The thing most people don't realize is Spencer Harris had more yds than Parker the year they played together but Spence never played football after that year. He went on to start Shortstop 4 years at Virginia Tech and was a team captain. He's coming back here to be a Dr soon hopefully. (just a little history for ya those guys were SO talented!).
In the early 90's when the foundation was built at LC we ran a play that looked just like Belly Read but was safer with no read. We faked fullback, T+TE blocked down and Guard kicked out playside. Fullback filled for playside pulling guard. QB faked FB and gave to the TB off tackle. Looks just like Belly read but no reading and you have a kickout block.
The nice thing about the belly read as a double option is that you don't have to pitch the ball so it's a little less dangerous. All of them have to be repped to death. Belfry runs an offense much like LC did in the late 90's. They also mix in some blast etc like the early 90's LC teams ran.
Dontae, Jason Michael and the Short's added another threat to Belly because once you started sucking in they would pull the ball from both backs and keep it around the end. It's a whole new problem to deal with when you can do that.
I think the best power play in all of football is the Super Sweep out of the true double wing. You guys should research it. You have to have a QB that will block. I think LCA might have run it a little a couple years ago. Basically the Wing comes in motion and the QB opens to him and pitches. The QB continues to spin into the whole behind the fullback and the QB is another lead blocker. Lots of bodies at the point of attack!
Couple shotgun option things:
The zone read was found on accident at WVU. One of the backup QB's got tired of the backside end running things down so he pulled the ball on his own and ran it. Rich Rodriguez liked it so they started working it. Zone read is a double option.
A lot of teams added a 2nd back to come behind as the pitch back then the cowboy option etc evolved. I think WVU even runs the bubble as the 3rd option now too. There are a lot of other things you can do that I'm not putting on here too
Utah/Fla spiced up the gun option by getting into more of a single wing look. They run the shovel option. It can be run a lot of ways but they usually block it like the old power play. Basically block down and backside guard pulls up in the whole to lead up on the ILBer. The QB sprints outside and tries to stretch the read key. If he stretches then the QB shuffles it underneath which is where you see the shovel pass. It really isn't much different than the old Ohio State Power Off Tackle play. If the read key squeezes the shovel then it turns into speed option on the outside between the QB + RB. Tebow brought a whole new tweak because he was a beast. Basically they started running a lot of single wing which is REALLY OLD and some jet stuff with Percy Harvin etc. Somewhere I had film of a state championship high school team in Michigan that was exlusive true single wing. It was the wildest offesne I've seen in high school. They won huge in the state championship several years ago. They had brown yellow and white uniforms but the school slips me. I know there was a Christian Brothers on that tape but I don't think that was them. They put on a single wing clinic!
bulldog42 Wrote:I think the best power play in all of football is the Super Sweep out of the true double wing. You guys should research it. You have to have a QB that will block. I think LCA might have run it a little a couple years ago. Basically the Wing comes in motion and the QB opens to him and pitches. The QB continues to spin into the whole behind the fullback and the QB is another lead blocker. Lots of bodies at the point of attack!
Couple shotgun option things:
The zone read was found on accident at WVU. One of the backup QB's got tired of the backside end running things down so he pulled the ball on his own and ran it. Rich Rodriguez liked it so they started working it. Zone read is a double option.
A lot of teams added a 2nd back to come behind as the pitch back then the cowboy option etc evolved. I think WVU even runs the bubble as the 3rd option now too. There are a lot of other things you can do that I'm not putting on here too
Utah/Fla spiced up the gun option by getting into more of a single wing look. They run the shovel option. It can be run a lot of ways but they usually block it like the old power play. Basically block down and backside guard pulls up in the whole to lead up on the ILBer. The QB sprints outside and tries to stretch the read key. If he stretches then the QB shuffles it underneath which is where you see the shovel pass. It really isn't much different than the old Ohio State Power Off Tackle play. If the read key squeezes the shovel then it turns into speed option on the outside between the QB + RB. Tebow brought a whole new tweak because he was a beast. Basically they started running a lot of single wing which is REALLY OLD and some jet stuff with Percy Harvin etc. Somewhere I had film of a state championship high school team in Michigan that was exlusive true single wing. It was the wildest offesne I've seen in high school. They won huge in the state championship several years ago. They had brown yellow and white uniforms but the school slips me. I know there was a Christian Brothers on that tape but I don't think that was them. They put on a single wing clinic!
East Ridge runs that power sweep. You have PST pulling around and usually picking up a OLB, PSW going to lead block, QB hitting the Corner, and FB lead blocking.
As for everything else you mentioned, im not too much of the Florida/WVU/Michigan Spread Option Offense. When you mentioned the Single Wing you regained my attention. It is a really underrated offense. Alot of misdirection and power plays from that.
Here's a clip of true double wing. It's not a great quality video but you can see that it is a power offense with misderection east and west.
The triple option gives you advantages in that you don't have to block great players. It is deceptive but more downhill. A little more risk reward. On defense if you know what you are doing you can force the ball into certain people's hands in the offense doesn't have other ways to get the ball to certain backs.
That's what made teams like Nebraska so good. They had the fullback zone, fullback trap etc. They had the tailback Iso, power, toss etc so you couldn't really force their hand as much on option. That and they had guys like Turner Gill, Tommy Frazier, Scott Frost etc running the show.
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZla9dKIN54"]YouTube- (College Football) - 1995 Nebraska Cornhuskers[/nomedia]
Here's a good luck at that 95 Nebraska team arguably the best of all time especially on the ground. You can see some option in there. For they younger people that didn't get to see Tommy Frazier he was out of this world and I wasn't a Nebraska fan. Phillips, A. Green, the stable of fullbacks and the blackshirt defense was something to watch!