"This macho bravado--that's the kind of thing that leads you into wars that should not be fought, that history is not kind to. The quest for justice, despite what your contemporaries might think, that's toughness. The ability to subject yourself to the kind of criticism I'm getting now, for something I think is right? That's tough. This is something that can get a rise out of me, the notion that somehow Eric Holder and Barack Obama, this Administration, is not tough. We have the welfare of the American people in our minds all the time. We'll fight our enemies, and we'll do that which is necessary, and we won't turn our backs on the values and traditions that have made this country great. That is what is tough." Eric Holder, US Attorney General
thecavemaster Wrote:"This macho bravado--that's the kind of thing that leads you into wars that should not be fought, that history is not kind to. The quest for justice, despite what your contemporaries might think, that's toughness. The ability to subject yourself to the kind of criticism I'm getting now, for something I think is right? That's tough. This is something that can get a rise out of me, the notion that somehow Eric Holder and Barack Obama, this Administration, is not tough. We have the welfare of the American people in our minds all the time. We'll fight our enemies, and we'll do that which is necessary, and we won't turn our backs on the values and traditions that have made this country great. That is what is tough." Eric Holder, US Attorney General
Holder will soon be looking at the bottom side of the Obama bus. Obama, Gibbs, and Biden have assured us that KSM will be found guilty and then be put to death. Today, on Meet the Press, Biden assured us that even if KSM is found guilty he will not be turned loose on our soil and he will not be turned loose in the Middle East.
So, if the result of the trial is a foregone conclusion and our government has no intention of releasing KSM regardless of the outcome of the trial, why does this group of incompetents want to blow another $200 million on a civilian trial in NYC? Do these people not realize how stupid they sound?
Hoot Gibson Wrote:Holder will soon be looking at the bottom side of the Obama bus. Obama, Gibbs, and Biden have assured us that KSM will be found guilty and then be put to death. Today, on Meet the Press, Biden assured us that even if KSM is found guilty he will not be turned loose on our soil and he will not be turned loose in the Middle East.
So, if the result of the trial is a foregone conclusion and our government has no intention of releasing KSM regardless of the outcome of the trial, why does this group of incompetents want to blow another $200 million on a civilian trial in NYC? Do these people not realize how stupid they sound?
As Attorney General, Holder has tried to depoliticize one of the most polarizing issues facing the Administration: how to protect the country from terrorism. He doesn't want to be Ed Meece or John Ashcroft...doesn't want a partisan infected Justice Department. His memo to the Department that the JD was "going to do the right things, regardless of politics" ought to be applauded independent of party affiliation.
thecavemaster Wrote:As Attorney General, Holder has tried to depoliticize one of the most polarizing issues facing the Administration: how to protect the country from terrorism. He doesn't want to be Ed Meece or John Ashcroft...doesn't want a partisan infected Justice Department. His memo to the Department that the JD was "going to do the right things, regardless of politics" ought to be applauded independent of party affiliation.
Do a little bit of research. Republicans are not alone in opposing holding a civilian trial in NYC. The Obama administration did politicize this issue with its decision, which was intended to shore up support among the far left wing of the Democrat Party. The plan has backfired and blown egg all over Obama's face.
The only question is how soon Obama throws Holder under the big yellow, bio-fueled bus. My guess is that it will happen well before November in response to Democratic pressure. (Although Obama may sacrifice TIm Geithner first if unemployment spikes again.)
Hoot Gibson Wrote:Do a little bit of research. Republicans are not alone in opposing holding a civilian trial in NYC. The Obama administration did politicize this issue with its decision, which was intended to shore up support among the far left wing of the Democrat Party. The plan has backfired and blown egg all over Obama's face.
The only question is how soon Obama throws Holder under the big yellow, bio-fueled bus. My guess is that it will happen well before November in response to Democratic pressure. (Although Obama may sacrifice TIm Geithner first if unemployment spikes again.)
Liberman, Schumer, Bloomberg... and others, they felt the winds all right. Here it is Hoot: I am against seizing people without probable cause. I believe in giving people the right of due process. I believe in giving people a trial by an impartial jury. By the way, last week, the Justice Department confirmed that Abdulmutallab was now cooperating with the FBI: "He has an incentive to talk in the criminal justice system, which the other system doesn't offer." Apparently, his family has been of assistance in getting him to talk. Would his father have gone to American authorities if he knew his son might be whisked away to a black site, to some secret prison of torture set up in a foreign country? I think we are much more likely to get cooperation, and this is proving true, if the belief is that we are acting in a way that is consistent with American values.
thecavemaster Wrote:Liberman, Schumer, Bloomberg... and others, they felt the winds all right. Here it is Hoot: I am against seizing people without probable cause. I believe in giving people the right of due process. I believe in giving people a trial by an impartial jury. By the way, last week, the Justice Department confirmed that Abdulmutallab was now cooperating with the FBI: "He has an incentive to talk in the criminal justice system, which the other system doesn't offer." Apparently, his family has been of assistance in getting him to talk. Would his father have gone to American authorities if he knew his son might be whisked away to a black site, to some secret prison of torture set up in a foreign country? I think we are much more likely to get cooperation, and this is proving true, if the belief is that we are acting in a way that is consistent with American values.
Does it make any sense to you to spend $200 million on a civil trial for a confessed mass murderer, when the US Contstitution's due process requirement can be satisfied through a trial by military tribunal, without endangering more innocent civilian lives by making NYC an even bigger terror target?
Does it make sense to you for the WH Press Secretary, the president, and the vice president all pronouncing sentence on KSM before a jury has even been selected? Are you foolish enough to believe that such a process will be seen as a "fair trial" by the Islamic world? Do you take them for idiots?
thecavemaster Wrote:Liberman, Schumer, Bloomberg... and others, they felt the winds all right. Here it is Hoot: I am against seizing people without probable cause. I believe in giving people the right of due process. I believe in giving people a trial by an impartial jury. By the way, last week, the Justice Department confirmed that Abdulmutallab was now cooperating with the FBI: "He has an incentive to talk in the criminal justice system, which the other system doesn't offer." Apparently, his family has been of assistance in getting him to talk. Would his father have gone to American authorities if he knew his son might be whisked away to a black site, to some secret prison of torture set up in a foreign country? I think we are much more likely to get cooperation, and this is proving true, if the belief is that we are acting in a way that is consistent with American values.
Without proabale cause? What are you talking about?
Perhaps if all of the idiots that Abdulmutallab's father tried to warn of his son's suspected activities had listened to him in the first place, this whole situation could have been avoided. He tried to warn us beforehand.
Hoot Gibson Wrote:Does it make any sense to you to spend $200 million on a civil trial for a confessed mass murderer, when the US Contstitution's due process requirement can be satisfied through a trial by military tribunal, without endangering more innocent civilian lives by making NYC an even bigger terror target?
Does it make sense to you for the WH Press Secretary, the president, and the vice president all pronouncing sentence on KSM before a jury has even been selected? Are you foolish enough to believe that such a process will be seen as a "fair trial" by the Islamic world? Do you take them for idiots?
The American system of jurisprudence makes sense to me. The President can say, "OJ is guilty." But that doesn't mean a jury will find him so. The military commission system, set up in makeshift fashion, has never tried a murder case. Richard Reid and Zacharias Moussaoui were given life sentences in the criminal courts. After this, Guliani, who now lambasts Obama, said this: "I was in awe of our system. It does demonstrate that we can give people a fair trial." I, for one, believe in this nation. I believe in our Constitution. "Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither" (Ben Franklin). I am unwilling to abandon the American dream of justice simply because winds shift and people are afraid.
thecavemaster Wrote:The American system of jurisprudence makes sense to me. The President can say, "OJ is guilty." But that doesn't mean a jury will find him so. The military commission system, set up in makeshift fashion, has never tried a murder case. Richard Reid and Zacharias Moussaoui were given life sentences in the criminal courts. After this, Guliani, who now lambasts Obama, said this: "I was in awe of our system. It does demonstrate that we can give people a fair trial." I, for one, believe in this nation. I believe in our Constitution. "Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither" (Ben Franklin). I am unwilling to abandon the American dream of justice simply because winds shift and people are afraid.
But then again if OJ had admitted his guilt from the beginning, as KSM has already done,....yada , yada
thecavemaster Wrote:The American system of jurisprudence makes sense to me. The President can say, "OJ is guilty." But that doesn't mean a jury will find him so. The military commission system, set up in makeshift fashion, has never tried a murder case. Richard Reid and Zacharias Moussaoui were given life sentences in the criminal courts. After this, Guliani, who now lambasts Obama, said this: "I was in awe of our system. It does demonstrate that we can give people a fair trial." I, for one, believe in this nation. I believe in our Constitution. "Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither" (Ben Franklin). I am unwilling to abandon the American dream of justice simply because winds shift and people are afraid.
....
Mr.Kimball Wrote:But then again if OJ had admitted his guilt from the beginning, as KSM has already done, .....yada, yada
But, if OJ's lawyers had argued their client was not competent to make such an admission, request a "martyr's" death? forsake a trial? yada, yada... Kimball, you want a neat, little tidy world where everything just gets wrapped up in a pretty old ball. I understand that. It just doesn't work that way.
thecavemaster Wrote:But, if OJ's lawyers had argued their client was not competent to make such an admission, request a "martyr's" death? forsake a trial? yada, yada... Kimball, you want a neat, little tidy world where everything just gets wrapped up in a pretty old ball. I understand that. It just doesn't work that way.
Yeah, heaven forbid that the use of common sense be exercized in anything that ever goes on.
Mr.Kimball Wrote:Yeah, heaven forbid that the use of common sense be exercized in anything that ever goes on.
LIke it was argued that "common sense" told us that white children and black children weren't meant to go to school together? Come on, Kimball. The whole "well, I just believe in common sense" has been used to uphold all kinds of crap. It does make sense to determine the sanity, the competency of the accused.
thecavemaster Wrote:LIke it was argued that "common sense" told us that white children and black children weren't meant to go to school together? Come on, Kimball. The whole "well, I just believe in common sense" has been used to uphold all kinds of crap. It does make sense to determine the sanity, the competency of the accused.
Certainly, the lack of it has.
thecavemaster Wrote:The American system of jurisprudence makes sense to me. The President can say, "OJ is guilty." But that doesn't mean a jury will find him so. The military commission system, set up in makeshift fashion, has never tried a murder case. Richard Reid and Zacharias Moussaoui were given life sentences in the criminal courts. After this, Guliani, who now lambasts Obama, said this: "I was in awe of our system. It does demonstrate that we can give people a fair trial." I, for one, believe in this nation. I believe in our Constitution. "Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither" (Ben Franklin). I am unwilling to abandon the American dream of justice simply because winds shift and people are afraid.
Holder's (and Obama's) justification for a civil trial for KSM have nothing to do with seeing that he gets justice. This was supposed to be a show trial - to show the Arab and Muslim world that even terrorists get fair trials in our country. When the people in charge of executing our laws in this country publicly declare the guilt of a defendant, then it becomes obvious for any astute observer that the reasons given for the decision are a sham.
This obvious sham is even more obvious to a person who already believed that this country treats Muslims unfairly. If the trial proceeds as Holder proposed, it will become a recruiting tool for our enemies.
In other words, it is obvious that the Holder/Obama decision was made to satisfy far left wing zealots in the Democrat Party, such as yourself. It is just a $200 million ploy to shore up Obama's base - nothing more, nothing less.
Hoot Gibson Wrote:Holder's (and Obama's) justification for a civil trial for KSM have nothing to do with seeing that he gets justice. This was supposed to be a show trial - to show the Arab and Muslim world that even terrorists get fair trials in our country. When the people in charge of executing our laws in this country publicly declare the guilt of a defendant, then it becomes obvious for any astute observer that the reasons given for the decision are a sham.
This obvious sham is even more obvious to a person who already believed that this country treats Muslims unfairly. If the trial proceeds as Holder proposed, it will become a recruiting tool for our enemies.
In other words, it is obvious that the Holder/Obama decision was made to satisfy far left wing zealots in the Democrat Party, such as yourself. It is just a $200 million ploy to shore up Obama's base - nothing more, nothing less.
:Thumbs:
Thus, to the Right Wing Flirty Party: Holder is posturing (i.e. being deceitful) in his words posted earlier... he actually doesn't care about American values concerning justice, just about a "show trial." (2) A person who does care about justice and other such principles is a "left wing zealot." Painting with a broad brush, there, aren't you, Hoot? And, Brave Kimball, waving his little flag behind you.
thecavemaster Wrote:Thus, to the Right Wing Flirty Party: Holder is posturing (i.e. being deceitful) in his words posted earlier... he actually doesn't care about American values concerning justice, just about a "show trial." (2) A person who does care about justice and other such principles is a "left wing zealot." Painting with a broad brush, there, aren't you, Hoot? And, Brave Kimball, waving his little flag behind you.
If Holder truly believes that giving KSM a show trial is the right thing to do, then he should be furious at his boss, Barack Obama, as well as Gibbs and Biden for announcing to the world (and to the jury pool) that KSM is guilty, that a jury will find him guilty, and he will be put to death for his crimes.
In fact, if Holder truly believed that KSM should be given a fair trial in a civil court as if he were an American citizen accused of a crime, then he should have already resigned following the prejudicial statements made by other top officials in the Obama administration.
You cannot have it both ways. The Justice Department falls under Obama and Holder is his subordinate. I disagree strongly with whomever actually made this decision, but if KSM is to get a trial in civil court and afforded the constitutional rights of a US citizen, Obama should not be publicly announcing that he is guilty and will be executed before a trial has been held.
Obama spends our money like it came with a very large Monopoly game. $200 million can be put to much better use than shoring up sagging support for Obama among the old hippie wing of the party.
Potential terrorists will have much more respect for the American justice system if a military tribunal accepts KSM's confession and swiftly executes him than they will for a show trial with all the trimmings of a celebrity trial.
thecavemaster Wrote:Thus, to the Right Wing Flirty Party: Holder is posturing (i.e. being deceitful) in his words posted earlier... he actually doesn't care about American values concerning justice, just about a "show trial." (2) A person who does care about justice and other such principles is a "left wing zealot." Painting with a broad brush, there, aren't you, Hoot? And, Brave Kimball, waving his little flag behind you.
Hmmmm. And seeing that you want to bring that subject up, there is no doubt that the flag you tout surely is a deep solid red in color. The only thing I havn't figured out yet is if it is emblazened with a hammer and sickle in the corner or the one with a bunch of little stars in the corner. You certainly make one wonder which side you are really on CM.
Mr.Kimball Wrote:Hmmmm. And seeing that you want to bring that subject up, there is no doubt that the flag you tout surely is a deep solid red in color. The only thing I havn't figured out yet is if it is emblazened with a hammer and sickle in the corner or the one with a bunch of little stars in the corner. You certainly make one wonder which side you are really on CM.
Apparently, a person who believes in a living wage, that keeps pace with inflation, is a communist. Is that it, Kimball? A person who believes in a fair trial as a human right? "pinko commie." You're the one with the strange worldview, Kimball... like Bizarro World... everything reflects in opposites.
thecavemaster Wrote:Apparently, a person who believes in a living wage, that keeps pace with inflation, is a communist. Is that it, Kimball? A person who believes in a fair trial as a human right? "pinko commie." You're the one with the strange worldview, Kimball... like Bizarro World... everything reflects in opposites.
Yeah it sure is starnge that I think just like everyone else that posts on this board, and you are the only one that is quite the opposite. Hey it's you that's perfect CM. It's the rest of the world that's screwed up.
Mr.Kimball Wrote:Yeah it sure is starnge that I think just like everyone else that posts on this board, and you are the only one that is quite the opposite. Hey it's you that's perfect CM. It's the rest of the world that's screwed up.
Numbers game, eh? At the cross, stood his mother, Mary Magdalene, and a couple of other women. The rest had forsaken and fled. The crowd had shouted, "Away with this man." The soldiers had put a scarlet robe on him and a thorny crown. "Father, forgive them... they know not what they do." Yeah, Kimball, that's your ticket, right? Poor, ignorant, mislead savior of the world... it was the rest of the world that was screwed up? Yeah, right. It sure was.
thecavemaster Wrote:Numbers game, eh? At the cross, stood his mother, Mary Magdalene, and a couple of other women. The rest had forsaken and fled. The crowd had shouted, "Away with this man." The soldiers had put a scarlet robe on him and a thorny crown. "Father, forgive them... they know not what they do." Yeah, Kimball, that's your ticket, right? Poor, ignorant, mislead savior of the world... it was the rest of the world that was screwed up? Yeah, right. It sure was.
lol. And what has any of this rambling have to do with KSM?
Mr.Kimball Wrote:lol. And what has any of this rambling have to do with KSM?
Per YOUR previous post: there is more to wrong or right than a raising of hands, or counting posters. A majority of citizens of Little Rock, Arkansas, can vote to keep African American students out of Central High School. In America, the bill of rights isn't at the beck and call of the majority.
Why should we even waste time with a long trial. Then man openly admits to his charges, and there is a pile of evidence as deep as the great lakes. Get him in there, find him guilty and put a bullet in his head, and lets move on and bring in the next terrorist.
All these ridiculous dog and pony shows the politicians try to put on make me sick, both sides included in this.
We need term limits on congress. If the politicians were more concerned about their legacy and how they would be remembered and less about getting re-elected this country would improve 1000 fold over night.
Beetle01 Wrote:Why should we even waste time with a long trial. Then man openly admits to his charges, and there is a pile of evidence as deep as the great lakes. Get him in there, find him guilty and put a bullet in his head, and lets move on and bring in the next terrorist.
All these ridiculous dog and pony shows the politicians try to put on make me sick, both sides included in this.
We need term limits on congress. If the politicians were more concerned about their legacy and how they would be remembered and less about getting re-elected this country would improve 1000 fold over night.
"Get him in there." But where is there, Beetle? Military tribunal? Criminal court? I'm not sure a debate about matters of essential justice is ancillary to American jurisprudence... at least I hope it's not.