DevilsWin Wrote:In order to have proof you would have to have a trial.
How many months could that take?
By the time a verdict was rendered you could be looking at the 3rd trimester.
Unacceptable. Even for a pro-choice guy like me.
Abortion is not murder. The person having the abortion does not think they are killing a human being. And, they are not. Murder requires the act (actus reus) and the corresponding mental state (mens rea). When god kills a fertilized egg, some doctor has to do a D & C. Maybe that doctor should go to jail, but only if god turns him or her self in.
I find it interesting that some of the pro-choice supporters keep mentiong that miscarriages happen and that God allowed them. So in my eyes you all are comparing an act of God, aka, a miscarriage to an abortion, an act of man. So you all feel it is okay to play God?
God makes his decisions and for us to try and completely understand them is futile, his wisdom is infinetly greater than all of ours combined. We can only base our actions on what we feel is right or wrong and what we feel Jesus and God would want us to do. Are we always right? Of course not, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Noone can ever convince me abortion is ok.
Even in cases of rape. All the girl has to do is take a day after pill. Even for those who are afraid to say they were raped, noone would have to know, just get a day after pill. It takes 24-36 hours for the egg to become fertilized, then it can take anywhere from 3-7 days on average for the egg to begin cell mitosis, which once the Cyclin B hits and Mitosis begins, in my eyes thats when it becomes a living being. Before that it is just a mass of DNA waiting to be activated.
Beetle01 Wrote:I find it interesting that some of the pro-choice supporters keep mentiong that miscarriages happen and that God allowed them. So in my eyes you all are comparing an act of God, aka, a miscarriage to an abortion, an act of man. So you all feel it is okay to play God?
God makes his decisions and for us to try and completely understand them is futile, his wisdom is infinetly greater than all of ours combined. We can only base our actions on what we feel is right or wrong and what we feel Jesus and God would want us to do. Are we always right? Of course not, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Noone can ever convince me abortion is ok.
Even in cases of rape. All the girl has to do is take a day after pill. Even for those who are afraid to say they were raped, noone would have to know, just get a day after pill. It takes 24-36 hours for the egg to become fertilized, then it can take anywhere from 3-7 days on average for the egg to begin cell mitosis, which once the Cyclin B hits and Mitosis begins, in my eyes thats when it becomes a living being. Before that it is just a mass of DNA waiting to be activated.
You sure know a lot about the will of "god." You are saying that human beings are condemned for what god does as well. Good luck with that. If not a single soul in this whole wide world could ever convince you, then you are consistent across the board: your mind is closed.
thecavemaster Wrote:You sure know a lot about the will of "god." You are saying that human beings are condemned for what god does as well. Good luck with that. If not a single soul in this whole wide world could ever convince you, then you are consistent across the board: your mind is closed.
In no way shape or form did I even say at all in that post that I know anything about the will of God. Like I stated it seems that some of you pro-choice guys are trying to advocate abortion because God allows miscarriages and so that it should be ok for humans to have abortions because God allows miscarriages. A miscarriage is a natural act. Abortion is not natural.
Beetle01 Wrote:In no way shape or form did I even say at all in that post that I know anything about the will of God. Like I stated it seems that some of you pro-choice guys are trying to advocate abortion because God allows miscarriages and so that it should be ok for humans to have abortions because God allows miscarriages. A miscarriage is a natural act. Abortion is not natural.
Who is the author of this natural abortion? I am not advocating abortion. This is like saying a person is out on the street, locating pregnant women, and shouting, "Get an abortion; get an abortion."
thecavemaster Wrote:Who is the author of this natural abortion? I am not advocating abortion. This is like saying a person is out on the street, locating pregnant women, and shouting, "Get an abortion; get an abortion."
Noone said anything like that, I guess I should clarify abortion and abortion rights.
*Central_Cheer_Chick Wrote:Well not neccesarily a trial, but at least saying she reported it. Otherwise any girl can walk in and claim it was a rape. I was just throwing that out there as an argument though.
And I believe in God and that He choices who is here on Earth and who isn't. So no I don't believe He is a murderer. If a woman miscarries, then that is an awful thing to happen. But we shouldn't be mad at God. He has a plan for everything and we have to deal with it the best we can. Miscarrying and aborting are two different things. I believe that we will pay for what we do. But anyway, that is just my view on things.
There is no proof without due process.
thecavemaster Wrote:You sure know a lot about the will of "god." You are saying that human beings are condemned for what god does as well. Good luck with that. If not a single soul in this whole wide world could ever convince you, then you are consistent across the board: your mind is closed.
thecavemaster Wrote:Who is the author of this natural abortion?
Again you keep bringiong God back into the discussion. Why? As I stated before, this isn't a Christian/non-Christian issue, it's a matter of rights. Either you believe every unborn child has a right to live, or you don't. It can't get any more basic as that. If you believe that all unborn babies have a right to live, you can't say that you are against abortion but it's fine for other people. If it's wrong, it's wrong. And it is.
As Beetle mentioned, the difference between miscarriage and abortion should be plainly obvious. One is a natural event, the other is a direct result of human intervention. It's as different as dying of cancer, and dying of a gunshot wound.
But since you brought it up, no, God didn't cause the miscarriage. He allowed it to happen as a natural event, just like he allows floods and tornados and the like. To blame God for a miscarriage shows a lack of understanding of God and what he does.
More Cowbell Wrote:Again you keep bringiong God back into the discussion. Why? As I stated before, this isn't a Christian/non-Christian issue, it's a matter of rights. Either you believe every unborn child has a right to live, or you don't. It can't get any more basic as that. If you believe that all unborn babies have a right to live, you can't say that you are against abortion but it's fine for other people. If it's wrong, it's wrong. And it is.
As Beetle mentioned, the difference between miscarriage and abortion should be plainly obvious. One is a natural event, the other is a direct result of human intervention. It's as different as dying of cancer, and dying of a gunshot wound.
But since you brought it up, no, God didn't cause the miscarriage. He allowed it to happen as a natural event, just like he allows floods and tornados and the like. To blame God for a miscarriage shows a lack of understanding of God and what he does.
Again, if "god" could stop it but doesn't, what's that? the laziest man/woman in town. Fertilized egg and unborn child are not exact equivalents. Why do I keep bringing "god" up? Why can't I? Right to life folks have the patent?
thecavemaster Wrote:Again, if "god" could stop it but doesn't, what's that? the laziest man/woman in town.
God doesn't step in and stop every death from occuring, that's not the way it works. He allows the miscarriage to occur, just like he allows a person to get cancer. God also allows people to committ sinful acts, such as murder. But just because he doesn't stop them means he condones the acts. That's the free will he gives us to make daily choices about what we do. Besides, just because God allows people to die of natural causes doesn't mean that it's okay to murder someone, does it?
Quote: Fertilized egg and unborn child are not exact equivalents.
If you want to use this argument, I can agree to a point. They are not the same, just as a 32-week fetus is not the same as a newborn baby, and a newborn is not the same as an adult. But if one believes that the fertilized egg is life, why shouldn't it have the right to live? And if it doesn't have that right, at what point
does it gain said right?
Quote: Why do I keep bringing "god" up? Why can't I? Right to life folks have the patent?
I'm a firm "right-to-lifer", and I'm not bring up God or the Bible to support my position. As I've stated many times, this isn't a religious issue, it's a rights issue. Do you think unborn children have a right to live, or do you not. That's all.
More Cowbell Wrote:God doesn't step in and stop every death from occuring, that's not the way it works. He allows the miscarriage to occur, just like he allows a person to get cancer. God also allows people to committ sinful acts, such as murder. But just because he doesn't stop them means he condones the acts. That's the free will he gives us to make daily choices about what we do. Besides, just because God allows people to die of natural causes doesn't mean that it's okay to murder someone, does it?
If you want to use this argument, I can agree to a point. They are not the same, just as a 32-week fetus is not the same as a newborn baby, and a newborn is not the same as an adult. But if one believes that the fertilized egg is life, why shouldn't it have the right to live? And if it doesn't have that right, at what point does it gain said right?
I'm a firm "right-to-lifer", and I'm not bring up God or the Bible to support my position. As I've stated many times, this isn't a religious issue, it's a rights issue. Do you think unborn children have a right to live, or do you not. That's all.
Roe v. Wade addressed the whole trimester debate. Your position is consistent and well argued. However, if one does not directly equate a fertilized egg with a "child," then your absolutism ("Do you think "a" or not "a" That's all") does not apply. Within your thought system, it does apply.
thecavemaster Wrote:Abortion is not murder. The person having the abortion does not think they are killing a human being. And, they are not. Murder requires the act (actus reus) and the corresponding mental state (mens rea). When god kills a fertilized egg, some doctor has to do a D & C. Maybe that doctor should go to jail, but only if god turns him or her self in.
Just goin to correct you somewhat. Murder is the unlawful act of killing of another human being. And you are technically correct that abortions are not murder. Because abortions are the lawful act of killing another human being. You said that the person having an aboriton does not think that they are killing a human being. Then what do they think. Do they think they are sending them on a long vacation? Lol. If you would have said that the person doesn't think they are murdering a child you would have been correct. And the GOD comment you said that GOD kills fertilized eggs and he/she should go to jail. GOD allows the fertilized egg/child to be killed but it is not his will. And the doctor is not commiting murder because once again it is legal for him to kill that child.
sherman14 Wrote:Just goin to correct you somewhat. Murder is the unlawful act of killing of another human being. And you are technically correct that abortions are not murder. Because abortions are the lawful act of killing another human being. You said that the person having an aboriton does not think that they are killing a human being. Then what do they think. Do they think they are sending them on a long vacation? Lol. If you would have said that the person doesn't think they are murdering a child you would have been correct. And the GOD comment you said that GOD kills fertilized eggs and he/she should go to jail. GOD allows the fertilized egg/child to be killed but it is not his will. And the doctor is not commiting murder because once again it is legal for him to kill that child.
If god allows it but could prevent it, again, he or she is the laziest creep in town. Yes, a person having an abortion, in that moment, does not have mens reas. Murder requires two things: the act and the corresponding mental state...that's the legal definition. What is the difference between a child and a human being? I sort of thought one was the other was the other. I do not believe a fertilized egg is a child. If you are "goin" to correct anybody, get it right.
thecavemaster Wrote:Roe v. Wade addressed the whole trimester debate. Your position is consistent and well argued. However, if one does not directly equate a fertilized egg with a "child," then your absolutism ("Do you think "a" or not "a" That's all") does not apply. Within your thought system, it does apply.
Then your argument is not whether unborn babies have the right to live, it's that they only gain that right after a certain point. I will grant that I do understand your argument, even though I disagree with it.
The problem with an arbitrary cutoff point is that there are too many variables. How do we know exactly how far along a pregnancy is? Even the best prenatal ultrasounds only give an estimate of the gestational age. You're still saying that at some time during the pregnancy, the child is hoping for one more day. "I'm not considered a life yet, but if I make it to tomorrow, I will be! Woo-hoo!"
More Cowbell Wrote:Then your argument is not whether unborn babies have the right to live, it's that they only gain that right after a certain point. I will grant that I do understand your argument, even though I disagree with it.
The problem with an arbitrary cutoff point is that there are too many variables. How do we know exactly how far along a pregnancy is? Even the best prenatal ultrasounds only give an estimate of the gestational age. You're still saying that at some time during the pregnancy, the child is hoping for one more day. "I'm not considered a life yet, but if I make it to tomorrow, I will be! Woo-hoo!"
I would say that foisting thoughts of hope, of complex thought upon even a late term fetus is way more of a stretch than this debate can take. We make judgments about value of life all the time. A person who goes out and shoots a deer just for the fun of it is not viewed particularly well. However, most everyone will swat a mosquito dead and give it no thought. Therefore, we value the deer more than the mosquito. I also don't think the mosquito says, "Maybe I'll live to suck blood one more day."
thecavemaster Wrote:
I would say that foisting thoughts of hope, of complex thought upon even a late term fetus is way more of a stretch than this debate can take. We make judgments about value of life all the time. A person who goes out and shoots a deer just for the fun of it is not viewed particularly well. However, most everyone will swat a mosquito dead and give it no thought. Therefore, we value the deer more than the mosquito. I also don't think the mosquito says, "Maybe I'll live to suck blood one more day."
First off, to compare the value of an animal's life is not relevant, as the value of a human life is infinitely more than that of
any animal. Sadly, there are people in this world that will fight to the death to save the life of an animal, but accept the death of an unborn child without a second's hesitation.
The problem, then, is that society needs to value human life. It's not something to be tossed away lightly.
More Cowbell Wrote:First off, to compare the value of an animal's life is not relevant, as the value of a human life is infinitely more than that of any animal. Sadly, there are people in this world that will fight to the death to save the life of an animal, but accept the death of an unborn child without a second's hesitation.
The problem, then, is that society needs to value human life. It's not something to be tossed away lightly.
Are you saying that a lot of Americans value the lives of American citizens over the lives of, say, Iraq's citizens? Are you saying that we don't make value judgments about the value of lives, animal and human? A human-willed miscarriage: a "god" ordained miscarriage as a natural event allowed by god. What's the end result?
The same people who chant on the street corners against Abortion clinics support indiscriminate carpet bombing of entire Iraqi and Afgani villages.
Tommy tent peg doesn't make the call he just sits and watches on the battlefield while his country fails to live up to its promise.
When civilians run the Pentagon this is what you get. I.E. Vietnam, Iraq, Afganistan
DevilsWin Wrote:I don't hink you should have any say so because it's not your baby, your body or your future. It's her baby, her future, her life, her salvation. Only she will have to answer to her maker.
So its none of your business.
No that would be god
thecavemaster Wrote:If god allows it but could prevent it, again, he or she is the laziest creep in town.* Yes, a person having an abortion, in that moment, does not have mens reas.* Murder requires two things:* the act and the corresponding mental state...that's the legal definition.* What is the difference between a child and a human being?* I sort of thought one was the other was the other.* I do not believe a fertilized egg is a child.* If you are "goin" to correct anybody, get it right.
What if GOD step in on everything and the world was perfect. What would be the purpose in life? GOD allows these things to happen because people have the choice to do these things. And for the final time a fetus is a person no matter how small or how far along in development. If a woman has sex she knows what could happen. Beacuse if she's willing to play the game then she must be willing to face the consequences. We are never going to agree on this matter. But I state my opinion because I want my voice to be heard. And if John McCain wins this election I hope he does do everything in his power to overturn Roe V Wade.
I am very much pro-choice, which does not mean I am telling every person on my left and right to go and get an abortion. How about some of you men put yourselves in a womans position and imagine if you got pregnant. I guarantee many people would change their opinions then. Also, everyone acts like it is always the woman who "want" to get the abortion because it's an easy way out, when in reality many women are pressured into it by the man. Everyone says "the women should know what she is getting herself into".. well so should the man involved.
I do not however, agree in using abortions as birth control. But, can you imagine if you had a 13 or 14 year old daughter who was raped and became pregnant. If she kept the baby, she would have to live the rest of her life knowing that that child was a mistake and was unwanted. Others may not feel the same as I, but if that was me I would feel hatred towards that child every day of my life; and that may sound horrible, but everyone has their own opinions.
Regardless if abortion is kept legal or not, women are still going to do it, and you can guarantee many more women will die from it. Just as someone posted before, it is her body, her choices, her salvations she has to answer for. God will deal with her how he pleases when it is time for her to meet him, so why should you be the ones to judge?
catsfan072 Wrote:I am very much pro-choice, which does not mean I am telling every person on my left and right to go and get an abortion. How about some of you men put yourselves in a womans position and imagine if you got pregnant. I guarantee many people would change their opinions then. Also, everyone acts like it is always the woman who "want" to get the abortion because it's an easy way out, when in reality many women are pressured into it by the man. Everyone says "the women should know what she is getting herself into".. well so should the man involved.
I do not however, agree in using abortions as birth control. But, can you imagine if you had a 13 or 14 year old daughter who was raped and became pregnant. If she kept the baby, she would have to live the rest of her life knowing that that child was a mistake and was unwanted. Others may not feel the same as I, but if that was me I would feel hatred towards that child every day of my life; and that may sound horrible, but everyone has their own opinions.
Regardless if abortion is kept legal or not, women are still going to do it, and you can guarantee many more women will die from it. Just as someone posted before, it is her body, her choices, her salvations she has to answer for. God will deal with her how he pleases when it is time for her to meet him, so why should you be the ones to judge?
That was me that said that, and you have no idea how happy I am that you have joined this conversation.
catsfan072 Wrote:I am very much pro-choice, which does not mean I am telling every person on my left and right to go and get an abortion. How about some of you men put yourselves in a womans position and imagine if you got pregnant. I guarantee many people would change their opinions then. Also, everyone acts like it is always the woman who "want" to get the abortion because it's an easy way out, when in reality many women are pressured into it by the man. Everyone says "the women should know what she is getting herself into".. well so should the man involved.
I do not however, agree in using abortions as birth control. But, can you imagine if you had a 13 or 14 year old daughter who was raped and became pregnant. If she kept the baby, she would have to live the rest of her life knowing that that child was a mistake and was unwanted. Others may not feel the same as I, but if that was me I would feel hatred towards that child every day of my life; and that may sound horrible, but everyone has their own opinions.
Regardless if abortion is kept legal or not, women are still going to do it, and you can guarantee many more women will die from it. Just as someone posted before, it is her body, her choices, her salvations she has to answer for. God will deal with her how he pleases when it is time for her to meet him, so why should you be the ones to judge?
I do agree with some, very little, aspects of your arguement. I don't care what anyone says, a man is not going to pressure you in to deciding on a human being growing inside of you. If you let someone else decide your fate, and your childs fate, then where are your morals?
sherman14 Wrote:What if GOD step in on everything and the world was perfect. What would be the purpose in life? GOD allows these things to happen because people have the choice to do these things. And for the final time a fetus is a person no matter how small or how far along in development. If a woman has sex she knows what could happen. Beacuse if she's willing to play the game then she must be willing to face the consequences. We are never going to agree on this matter. But I state my opinion because I want my voice to be heard. And if John McCain wins this election I hope he does do everything in his power to overturn Roe V Wade.
Perhaps the final time for you, though you shouldn't speak for me...I am a little less agreeable to that than apparently "god" is, who allows untold people, apparently to speak for him or her, with manifold "explanations" of his or her, at best, mysterious ways.
Kysportsfan Wrote:I do agree with some, very little, aspects of your arguement. I don't care what anyone says, a man is not going to pressure you in to deciding on a human being growing inside of you. If you let someone else decide your fate, and your childs fate, then where are your morals?
Here is my bet: you decide all the time on the fate of other people by the decisions you make. Break up with a girl? You are altering her fate. Drive under the influence? You could be altering someone's fate.
catsfan072 Wrote:I am very much pro-choice, which does not mean I am telling every person on my left and right to go and get an abortion. How about some of you men put yourselves in a womans position and imagine if you got pregnant. I guarantee many people would change their opinions then. Also, everyone acts like it is always the woman who "want" to get the abortion because it's an easy way out, when in reality many women are pressured into it by the man. Everyone says "the women should know what she is getting herself into".. well so should the man involved.
I do not however, agree in using abortions as birth control. But, can you imagine if you had a 13 or 14 year old daughter who was raped and became pregnant. If she kept the baby, she would have to live the rest of her life knowing that that child was a mistake and was unwanted. Others may not feel the same as I, but if that was me I would feel hatred towards that child every day of my life; and that may sound horrible, but everyone has their own opinions.
Regardless if abortion is kept legal or not, women are still going to do it, and you can guarantee many more women will die from it. Just as someone posted before, it is her body, her choices, her salvations she has to answer for. God will deal with her how he pleases when it is time for her to meet him, so why should you be the ones to judge?
OKay first of all if the defense for pro-choice hinges on some outrageous violent crime, then your argument is weak. How many times does this happen in a year? I'd say less than 5. If women still have abortions if it is made illlegal and die from it, then that's what happens when you're an idiot I guess. We can't prevent people from themselves and their own stupid actions. We have to look out for what is in the best interest of the babies. The women made the choice when they spread their legs. The men made the choice also. Life is about choices, and dealing with the results of those choices.
In incidents where the health of the mother is at risk, then I believe in trying to brith the baby live. It may not live, but you gotta give it a fighting chance.
catsfan072 Wrote:I am very much pro-choice, which does not mean I am telling every person on my left and right to go and get an abortion.
Regardless if abortion is kept legal or not, women are still going to do it, and you can guarantee many more women will die from it.
Just as someone posted before, it is her body, her choices, her salvations she has to answer for. God will deal with her how he pleases when it is time for her to meet him, so why should you be the ones to judge?
My rebuttal to each of your points...
First, everyone who is pro-choice says that they are not out on the street telling people to get abortions. As if that supposedly relieves their conscience of any guilt. That's like saying, "I don't believe in murder, and I'm not telling other people to go out and kill, but it's none of my business if they want to kill someone." If you support the right to kill, you're still
supporting the right to kill.
As for making abortion legal in order to prevent "back-alley" abortions, that is a weak argument. Just because people would break the law, is a reason to not have a law against something? No matter what law you're talking about, there will
always be someone who will break it, possibly getting hurt in the process. The solution is not to eliminate every law, so as to protect the law-breakers.
Finally, the "her body, her choice" argument. You're correct, it is her body, all except for that little mass of cells that she is trying to get rid of...
that is not her body, it belongs to another life. The anti-abortion position is not about legislating God's commandments, it's about protecting human rights, and the fight against those who believe unborn children have no rights.
More Cowbell Wrote:My rebuttal to each of your points...
First, everyone who is pro-choice says that they are not out on the street telling people to get abortions. As if that supposedly relieves their conscience of any guilt. That's like saying, "I don't believe in murder, and I'm not telling other people to go out and kill, but it's none of my business if they want to kill someone." If you support the right to kill, you're still supporting the right to kill.
As for making abortion legal in order to prevent "back-alley" abortions, that is a weak argument. Just because people would break the law, is a reason to not have a law against something? No matter what law you're talking about, there will always be someone who will break it, possibly getting hurt in the process. The solution is not to eliminate every law, so as to protect the law-breakers.
Finally, the "her body, her choice" argument. You're correct, it is her body, all except for that little mass of cells that she is trying to get rid of... that is not her body, it belongs to another life. The anti-abortion position is not about legislating God's commandments, it's about protecting human rights, and the fight against those who believe unborn children have no rights.
(1) I do not yell, "human willed miscarriage today" on the street: I do not feel guilt or need to appease guilt, despite your "Appalachian religion" based appeal to it. (2) My conscience is just fine. (3) I am pretty sure you make value judgments as to the value of human life in relative terms frequently. (4) If human beings were perfect decision makers, your absence of feeling for, what in other places on here, people refer to as "stupid women making stupid choices," might strike some in terms of self-tried abortions which lead to death (a historical reality that was very common). (5) You keep saying, "Religion has nothing to do with it." Are you serious?
Beetle01 Wrote:OKay first of all if the defense for pro-choice hinges on some outrageous violent crime, then your argument is weak. How many times does this happen in a year? I'd say less than 5. If women still have abortions if it is made illlegal and die from it, then that's what happens when you're an idiot I guess. We can't prevent people from themselves and their own stupid actions. We have to look out for what is in the best interest of the babies. The women made the choice when they spread their legs. The men made the choice also. Life is about choices, and dealing with the results of those choices.
In incidents where the health of the mother is at risk, then I believe in trying to brith the baby live. It may not live, but you gotta give it a fighting chance.
You mean like Sara Palins Daughter?
DevilsWin Wrote:You mean like Sara Palins Daughter?
Yes just like her daughter. Her daughter and the father of the baby seem to be doing the right thing, instead of running off to a clinic to commit legalized murder and torture.