Bluegrassrivals

thecavemaster Wrote:True story: soldiers were returning from Vietnam. At the airport, protesters were hurling insults at them. They asked their Captain for permission to break ranks and fight the protesters. The Captain said, "No...you were over there fighting to protect their right to yell at you." I hate war, but I despise also yelling at soldiers. With that said, that Captain knows what freedom is, knows what real patriotism is. Is it possible to love a country not even knowing what its core principles are and mean?

I think that you have the right as an American to believe or not believe whatever you want, but you should also be willing to fight for that right and defend that freedom. I don't like to see our country's young men and women go to war, but I believe it is sometimes necessary. The soldiers who serve our country didn't ask to be sent into the middle of the desert to see their fellow countrymen die, they simply gave their service to defend and protect our nation and fulfill all of the duties that go with that service. The Captain got it right I guess.

Brooks4Prez Wrote:I think that you have the right as an American to believe or not believe whatever you want, but you should also be willing to fight for that right and defend that freedom. I don't like to see our country's young men and women go to war, but I believe it is sometimes necessary. The soldiers who serve our country didn't ask to be sent into the middle of the desert to see their fellow countrymen die, they simply gave their service to defend and protect our nation and fulfill all of the duties that go with that service. The Captain got it right I guess.

Mohammed Ali refused to serve when drafted. He did so because African Americans were disproportiantly dying and because African Americans were denied basic civil rights in America, being asked to go fight for democracy in a foreign land when it did not exist for his brothers and sisters. Was he a patriot?

thecavemaster Wrote:Mohammed Ali refused to serve when drafted. He did so because African Americans were disproportiantly dying and because African Americans were denied basic civil rights in America, being asked to go fight for democracy in a foreign land when it did not exist for his brothers and sisters. Was he a patriot?

That's a good point.

thecavemaster Wrote:Mohammed Ali refused to serve when drafted. He did so because African Americans were disproportiantly dying and because African Americans were denied basic civil rights in America, being asked to go fight for democracy in a foreign land when it did not exist for his brothers and sisters. Was he a patriot?

Yes he was.

DevilsWin Wrote:Yes he was.

If patriotism is loving one's country more than one's self, then he obviously wasn't patriotic in making this choice.

However, I can't really blame him, but I don't really understand all his motives behind it either. He could have just been ducking to remain in a place that was to make him millions of dollars and live the easy life in between fights. Or he could have meant every word of it. I don't know.

WheelsNdaSky Wrote:If patriotism is loving one's country more than one's self, then he obviously wasn't patriotic in making this choice.

However, I can't really blame him, but I don't really understand all his motives behind it either. He could have just been ducking to remain in a place that was to make him millions of dollars and live the easy life in between fights. Or he could have meant every word of it. I don't know.

He was stripped of his title, banned from boxing, counted a traitor by the white establishment. He suffered these consequences as an objector of conscience. I think it could be reasonably argued that by holding this country accountable to its ideals and promises he did honor country more than self.

I think Ali had a right to refuse to fight because, why would he agree to risk dying if he was being denied the right to fully live (basic rights).

I don't agree with people protesting soldiers because they voluntered to help protect our rights and our lives; they can't control being sent to places that other people don't agree with.

You can say "but they killed innocent people," or did other things, but that's not the high majority of the soldiers, so you can't yell at all of them.

thecavemaster Wrote:Mohammed Ali refused to serve when drafted. He did so because African Americans were disproportiantly dying and because African Americans were denied basic civil rights in America, being asked to go fight for democracy in a foreign land when it did not exist for his brothers and sisters. Was he a patriot?

NO.

lawrencefan Wrote:NO.

Would you mind explaining?

thecavemaster Wrote:Mohammed Ali refused to serve when drafted. He did so because African Americans were disproportiantly dying and because African Americans were denied basic civil rights in America, being asked to go fight for democracy in a foreign land when it did not exist for his brothers and sisters. Was he a patriot?

DevilsWin Wrote:Would you mind explaining?

First of all, the basis of Democracy is the right to vote for your representation. Democracy did exist for people of color since the 15th amendment, which this may surprise you, happened some 90 years before. He was called to serve his country, and he didn't. He was nothing but a coward in my eyes, and a disgrace as a fellow Kentuckian. There are many things in this country I hate and disagree with. Abortion, Gay Rights, Illegal immigration. Anyone associated with the ACLU. The fact that the 1st amendment is contorted and twisted in such ways that people try to make you feel bad for being Christian, and try and have you believe your what's wrong with this country today. Even with all of this, unless Kentucky secedes I'd go fight.

EkyLb Wrote:First of all, the basis of Democracy is the right to vote for your representation. Democracy did exist for people of color since the 15th amendment, which this may surprise you, happened some 90 years before. He was called to serve his country, and he didn't. He was nothing but a coward in my eyes, and a disgrace as a fellow Kentuckian. There are many things in this country I hate and disagree with. Abortion, Gay Rights, Illegal immigration. Anyone associated with the ACLU. The fact that the 1st amendment is contorted and twisted in such ways that people try to make you feel bad for being Christian, and try and have you believe your what's wrong with this country today. Even with all of this, unless Kentucky secedes I'd go fight.

May surprise us? The 15th Amendment changed the law...it did not bring about the practice of equal rights in the South...or North for that matter. It took courage for Ali to speak truth to power, to suffer for his beliefs. Your quarrels with these other issues is for other threads. As for me, I hope you feel good about being a Christian...and that you respect the rights of others to not be a Christian, not have prayers forced upon them, to exercise the freedom of conscience GUARANTEED in the US Constitution. "Wrong or right: I'll go fight." Is this your position?

EkyLb Wrote:First of all, the basis of Democracy is the right to vote for your representation. Democracy did exist for people of color since the 15th amendment, which this may surprise you, happened some 90 years before. He was called to serve his country, and he didn't. He was nothing but a coward in my eyes, and a disgrace as a fellow Kentuckian. There are many things in this country I hate and disagree with. Abortion, Gay Rights, Illegal immigration. Anyone associated with the ACLU. The fact that the 1st amendment is contorted and twisted in such ways that people try to make you feel bad for being Christian, and try and have you believe your what's wrong with this country today. Even with all of this, unless Kentucky secedes I'd go fight.

The 15th Amendment didn't have any teeth in the south because of the Jim Crow Laws.

Read up:

http://www.jimcrowhistory.org/

EkyLb Wrote:First of all, the basis of Democracy is the right to vote for your representation. Democracy did exist for people of color since the 15th amendment, which this may surprise you, happened some 90 years before. He was called to serve his country, and he didn't. He was nothing but a coward in my eyes, and a disgrace as a fellow Kentuckian. There are many things in this country I hate and disagree with. Abortion, Gay Rights, Illegal immigration. Anyone associated with the ACLU. The fact that the 1st amendment is contorted and twisted in such ways that people try to make you feel bad for being Christian, and try and have you believe your what's wrong with this country today. Even with all of this, unless Kentucky secedes I'd go fight.

Go Get Signed up Patriot!

They need you in Iraq and Afganistan!

I've served, now it's your turn.

EkyLb Wrote:First of all, the basis of Democracy is the right to vote for your representation. Democracy did exist for people of color since the 15th amendment, which this may surprise you, happened some 90 years before. He was called to serve his country, and he didn't. He was nothing but a coward in my eyes, and a disgrace as a fellow Kentuckian. There are many things in this country I hate and disagree with. Abortion, Gay Rights, Illegal immigration. Anyone associated with the ACLU. The fact that the 1st amendment is contorted and twisted in such ways that people try to make you feel bad for being Christian, and try and have you believe your what's wrong with this country today. Even with all of this, unless Kentucky secedes I'd go fight.

Christian's try to make others feel bad for not being Christian. (You're going to **** if you don't believe the way we do)

They've been doing it for 100's of years.

You may remember The Crusades from World History class or perhaps the Spanish Inquisition.

DevilsWin Wrote:Would you mind explaining?

First of all, if you check the casualty figures for the Vietnam period, you will find that African American soldiers suffered 10% of all battlfield wounds, which corresponds roughly to their percentage of the population. Secondly, Cassius Clay was used by the Nation Of Islam as a "Cause Celebre' ". Had he went through the enlistment process he would not have fought in combat. He would have been a boxer. There are lawful ways to avoid combat. You can object and be assigned to a support role. Muhammad Ali was not a patriot.

DevilsWin Wrote:Christian's try to make others feel bad for not being Christian. (You're going to **** if you don't believe the way we do)

They've been doing it for 100's of years.

You may remember The Crusades from World History class or perhaps the Spanish Inquisition.

Of course Muslims would never object to someone of another faith. When was the last time a bunch of Catholics or Baptists got together and cut the heads off their hostages for television cameras?

lawrencefan Wrote:Of course Muslims would never object to someone of another faith. When was the last time a bunch of Catholics or Baptists got together and cut the heads off their hostages for television cameras?

You may have forgotten about the Christians that burned themselves alive in Waco.

Do you mean the ones who weren't bothering anyone until Janet Reno burned the place down with smoke and tear gas grenades?

DevilsWin Wrote:You may have forgotten about the Christians that burned themselves alive in Waco.

The Branch Davidians. Wasn't these the folks that Janet Reno decided to barbecue with smoke and tear gas grenades?

lawrencefan Wrote:First of all, if you check the casualty figures for the Vietnam period, you will find that African American soldiers suffered 10% of all battlfield wounds, which corresponds roughly to their percentage of the population. Secondly, Cassius Clay was used by the Nation Of Islam as a "Cause Celebre' ". Had he went through the enlistment process he would not have fought in combat. He would have been a boxer. There are lawful ways to avoid combat. You can object and be assigned to a support role. Muhammad Ali was not a patriot.

What does it matter what the nation of islam had as its motives, even assuming your characterization to be accurate? The man himself believed enough to suffer consequences. The fact that you would use "Cassius Clay," when the man himself chose "Mohammed Ali" suggests volumes about where your are coming from. He may have ridden around to cheer the troops, given a few boxing exhibitions, but what does that have to do with principle and conscience? He chose not to serve as an act of protest. Mohammed Ali was a patriot, unless you define patriotism as blind loyalty.

thecavemaster Wrote:What does it matter what the nation of islam had as its motives, even assuming your characterization to be accurate? The man himself believed enough to suffer consequences. The fact that you would use "Cassius Clay," when the man himself chose "Mohammed Ali" suggests volumes about where your are coming from. He may have ridden around to cheer the troops, given a few boxing exhibitions, but what does that have to do with principle and conscience? He chose not to serve as an act of protest. Mohammed Ali was a patriot, unless you define patriotism as blind loyalty.

I think he said "Cassius Clay" because he wanted to make himself feel like he was intelligent, to make himself feel like he knew what he was talking about.

thecavemaster Wrote:What does it matter what the nation of islam had as its motives, even assuming your characterization to be accurate? The man himself believed enough to suffer consequences. The fact that you would use "Cassius Clay," when the man himself chose "Mohammed Ali" suggests volumes about where your are coming from. He may have ridden around to cheer the troops, given a few boxing exhibitions, but what does that have to do with principle and conscience? He chose not to serve as an act of protest. Mohammed Ali was a patriot, unless you define patriotism as blind loyalty.

Accordingly, I will now only support my nation in matters when I am 100% percent in agreement with it. Henceforth, I will require an itemized statement of where my tax payments go and I will only pay those outlays with which I agree. Secondly, I will obey only those laws I feel are important or don't offend my sense of proper jurisprudence.
Thanks for opening my eyes! I am now a Patriot!

lawrencefan Wrote:Accordingly, I will now only support my nation in matters when I am 100% percent in agreement with it. Henceforth, I will require an itemized statement of where my tax payments go and I will only pay those outlays with which I agree. Secondly, I will obey only those laws I feel are important or don't offend my sense of proper jurisprudence.
Thanks for opening my eyes! I am now a Patriot!

"I ain't got nothin' against them Viet Cong... they ain't never called me a '******.' -Mohammed Ali

Paying taxes and killng and dying? Same thing? Stopping at red lights, not commiting murder, not stealing from people, serving in a war you feel unjust. Same thing? Maybe in your world...

thecavemaster Wrote:"I ain't got nothin' against them Viet Cong... they ain't never called me a '******.' -Mohammed Ali

Paying taxes and killng and dying? Same thing? Stopping at red lights, not commiting murder, not stealing from people, serving in a war you feel unjust. Same thing? Maybe in your world...

But if we did not pay taxes then how could we pay for an unjust war? No German ever called my Father a redneck or a hillbilly but he served in world war 2. I guess the point I am trying to make is that we as citizens in a republic have to make personal compromises all the time for the well being of the entire citizenry, and I don't feel we have the right to pick and choose what we will and won't support. We do that when we choose our representatives.
"Render Unto Caesar.........."

lawrencefan Wrote:But if we did not pay taxes then how could we pay for an unjust war? No German ever called my Father a redneck or a hillbilly but he served in world war 2. I guess the point I am trying to make is that we as citizens in a republic have to make personal compromises all the time for the well being of the entire citizenry, and I don't feel we have the right to pick and choose what we will and won't support. We do that when we choose our representatives.
"Render Unto Caesar.........."

Pilate allowed money changers in the Temple at the behest of the religious elite. By your reasoning, jesus was mistaken when he overturned the tables and threw out the money grubbing exploiters. Ali did give up a lot: he gave up his title, his way of making a living, his popularity among the white masses. I see your point, but I feel it in the best interest of the entire citizenry to understand America's greatest strength is in her ideals.

Jshort5 Wrote:I think he said "Cassius Clay" because he wanted to make himself feel like he was intelligent, to make himself feel like he knew what he was talking about.

I believe that was he name before he joined the Nation of Islam. At the end of the post I refer to him as Mohammad Ali, which is his name. Are you all trying to infer that I am a racist because I used the term Cassius Clay?

lawrencefan Wrote:I believe that was he name before he joined the Nation of Islam. At the end of the post I refer to him as Mohammad Ali, which is his name. Are you all trying to infer that I am a racist because I used the term Cassius Clay?

Nope, Im trying to infer that you knew what you were talking about. You should have called him Mohammad Ali throughout the post, we aren't talking about the time period when his name was Cassius Clay.:redboxer:

lawrencefan Wrote:Do you mean the ones who weren't bothering anyone until Janet Reno burned the place down with smoke and tear gas grenades?

You are one of the lost causes. No more debating with you for me.