Bluegrassrivals

6 years ago today, our nation was attacked by individuals determined to destroy our way of life and the very freedoms what we live for. These coward acts against innocent people killed almost 3,000 individuals, not only Americans but citizens from all over the world encompassing many different faiths.

Since the attacks, hundreds of thousands of troops from many different nations have come together to fight against terrorists and try to bring peace to the world. 3,000 plus American soldiers have died fighting for to keep the freedoms that we enjoy in America.

Today is not a day to bicker about political differences but rather a day to remember those we lost there lives on that morning 6 years ago as well as remember those who have died since and who are still risking their lives at this very moment still fighting for you.

Good post Beef.

Are they doing anything special over there today?

Not that I noticed. Went downtown earlier and there was no change anywhere, even at the US Consulate Office.

Now hear this: US troops do their job. The majority "joined up" as the best
prospect for making a living among limited choices. A smaller percentage
signed up for love of country and desire to serve. To simply say, "I
support the troops and am deeply saddended by the philosophy of
violence that led to 9-11" doesn't prove or change anything.

thecavemaster Wrote:Now hear this: US troops do their job. The majority "joined up" as the best
prospect for making a living among limited choices. A smaller percentage
signed up for love of country and desire to serve. To simply say, "I
support the troops and am deeply saddended by the philosophy of
violence that led to 9-11" doesn't prove or change anything.

Some people in our military join for a job. Believe it or not, you dont make a lot of money in the armed forces. Some join to get away from the location that they are living in. They may see it as the only way out of a rut that their families have been in for generations. Others join because it is what they want to do. You can tell which branch of the service that they join as to why they do it. In the Army, you can get at least a 20,000 dollar signing bonus. In the Marines, you are lucky to get a t-shirt. Jobs in the Navy and Air Force are more technical jobs therefore people join them to use it as a stepping stone to get a better education. In all reality, it doesnt matter what your personal reasons for joining truly are. The important part is that people join. Even after all the problems and conflicts going on in the world today, people are still joining. So that changes everything.

I remember where I was, what I was doing, and the reaction from many different groups of people. I remember our building Sgt. gathering everybody and telling us that two planes struck the towers, and we were all in disbelief. I got mad, wondering how could this happen to us? It was our generations Pearl Harbor. Yet when Pearl Harbor was attacked, THAT generation got mad, stayed mad, and a lot of WWII vets STILL won't buy Japanese products. This generation only wants to point blame at our president, bitch and bicker about politics. It was that same president that kept the country above water, consoled a saddened and desperate country searching for answers, and assured us that terrorism would not win. Our generation has a lot to learn from our previous generations. I still pray for families of the victims lost on 9/11. I pray for our soldiers to return home safe, and I pray that our nation, and our leaders will make the right decisions during this war on terror. God bless our military, and those that have given the ultimate sacrifice.

BasketBallonlyfan Wrote:Some people in our military join for a job. Believe it or not, you dont make a lot of money in the armed forces. Some join to get away from the location that they are living in. They may see it as the only way out of a rut that their families have been in for generations. Others join because it is what they want to do. You can tell which branch of the service that they join as to why they do it. In the Army, you can get at least a 20,000 dollar signing bonus. In the Marines, you are lucky to get a t-shirt. Jobs in the Navy and Air Force are more technical jobs therefore people join them to use it as a stepping stone to get a better education. In all reality, it doesnt matter what your personal reasons for joining truly are. The important part is that people join. Even after all the problems and conflicts going on in the world today, people are still joining. So that changes everything.

But, you make more money in the military than you do picking
vegetables for Taco Bell or flipping burgers at McDonalds or
standing on the corner in "No Industry At All" USA, which
explains a lot of the recruitment numbers for the Army and
Marines. It DOES matter why people join. Rich kids don't
much join. Senators kids don't much join. Upper middle
class suburban kids don't much join. I wonder how many
people who graduated from Lexington Catholic or Fort
Thomas Highlands have served in Iraq? I would bet what
little I have that the number is pretty low.

thecavemaster Wrote:Now hear this: US troops do their job. The majority "joined up" as the best
prospect for making a living among limited choices. A smaller percentage
signed up for love of country and desire to serve. To simply say, "I
support the troops and am deeply saddended by the philosophy of
violence that led to 9-11" doesn't prove or change anything.

I think you should take your political vendetta to another thread, so that this one can run it's due course.

Fenix Wrote:I think you should take your political vendetta to another thread, so that this one can run it's due course.

I have no political vendetta: I might not agree with current
policy in Iraq, but George Bush is not the devil. As a result
of 9/11 (and US official reaction and response), the world
is different. I think we need to "remember" lots of things
about 9/11, not simply stand on the corner and wave a flag,
as patriotism is often the refuge of scoundrels.

I remember exactly were I was as well. I was in the 7th grade outside playing football with my friends during break after one of our classes and another one of our friends came out and started yelling, "its world war 3 its world war 3!". We didn't know what to think, so we went back in to see what was going on. We were all scared to death and thought the world was coming to an end. I will never forget that dreadful day, basically the scariest day of my life and I couldn't imagine how it was for all of the families and lost victims involved. God Bless America! And its hard to believe its been 6 years ago this happened.

I was in sixth grade going into the Adams Middle School library and from then on out we watched that all day. It was hard seeing fellow classmates crying thinking the world was over and things like that. That day out B-team football team was supposed to play Warfield, but it was cancelled and its just one of those days I'll never forget.

May we never forget that day. I know I never will.
GOD bless AMERICA!!!

thecavemaster Wrote:But, you make more money in the military than you do picking
vegetables for Taco Bell or flipping burgers at McDonalds or
standing on the corner in "No Industry At All" USA, which
explains a lot of the recruitment numbers for the Army and
Marines. It DOES matter why people join. Rich kids don't
much join. Senators kids don't much join. Upper middle
class suburban kids don't much join. I wonder how many
people who graduated from Lexington Catholic or Fort
Thomas Highlands have served in Iraq? I would bet what
little I have that the number is pretty low.

For the work and training that you have to go threw day in and day out. Along with the conditions that you have to live in. Which by American standards are way below what we as a country allow, no the pay isnt worth it. Our convicts live in better conditions than our warriors do. A Private or e-1 in the military makes a whopping $325 dollars a week. If they get a promotion, they draw an amazing $364 dollars a week. Somehow they get lucky and become a e-3, which in the Marine Corps is a lance corporal, their pay jumps to $383 dollars a week. The minimum wage in Ky the last time I checked was $7.25 an hour. If you work 40 hours a week, that brings your total up to $290 dollars a week. Do you think it would be worth the extra 35 dollars a week to do all the crap you have to do to remain in the armed forces? As far as the kids that graduate from Lexington Catholic or Fort Thomas Highlands, how many of them do you think flip burgers at McDonalds or work at Wal Mart? I am pretty good friends with both the Army and Marine recruiters here in Pikeville. They both say they dont recruit much from certian schools here in Eastern Kentucky because they dont get many to join from them. So why should certain school from other parts of the state be any different?

BasketBallonlyfan Wrote:For the work and training that you have to go threw day in and day out. Along with the conditions that you have to live in. Which by American standards are way below what we as a country allow, no the pay isnt worth it. Our convicts live in better conditions than our warriors do. A Private or e-1 in the military makes a whopping $325 dollars a week. If they get a promotion, they draw an amazing $364 dollars a week. Somehow they get lucky and become a e-3, which in the Marine Corps is a lance corporal, their pay jumps to $383 dollars a week. The minimum wage in Ky the last time I checked was $7.25 an hour. If you work 40 hours a week, that brings your total up to $290 dollars a week. Do you think it would be worth the extra 35 dollars a week to do all the crap you have to do to remain in the armed forces? As far as the kids that graduate from Lexington Catholic or Fort Thomas Highlands, how many of them do you think flip burgers at McDonalds or work at Wal Mart? I am pretty good friends with both the Army and Marine recruiters here in Pikeville. They both say they dont recruit much from certian schools here in Eastern Kentucky because they dont get many to join from them. So why should certain school from other parts of the state be any different?

I don't know where you got these numbers, but my cousin is a MP, military police officer, and he's been over to Iraq, fought, transported terrorists, and guarded Guantanamo Bay, and he makes way more money than what you listed. Maybe it's just the MP's that make good money?

ComeFlyWithMe Wrote:I don't know where you got these numbers, but my cousin is a MP, military police officer, and he's been over to Iraq, fought, transported terrorists, and guarded Guantanamo Bay, and he makes way more money than what you listed. Maybe it's just the MP's that make good money?

http://www.dfas.mil/militarypay/2006mili...ables.html

I can't make anything out from that..just a whole bunch of numbers.

ComeFlyWithMe Wrote:I can't make anything out from that..just a whole bunch of numbers.

Across the top is how many years you have been in the service, up and down is your pay grade. Yes, if you stay in for years and get 4 or 5 promotions, you can make pretty good money. But those just going in for a job and a pay check wont stay in for 8 or 10 years. The ones that does that are doing it for a career. There is a big difference in a job and a career.

BasketBallonlyfan Wrote:Across the top is how many years you have been in the service, up and down is your pay grade. Yes, if you stay in for years and get 4 or 5 promotions, you can make pretty good money. But those just going in for a job and a pay check wont stay in for 8 or 10 years. The ones that does that are doing it for a career. There is a big difference in a job and a career.

For teens mired in poverty and limited opportunties, the
military (Army and Marines) can be made to look pretty
good. The burden of the implementation of war plans falls
upon those who "ain't no fortunate son." As a nation, we
don't pay the "grunts" very well; we don't take care of them
after they are wounded all that well. With that said, I
spent an hour or so yesterday watching footage of 9/11 on
You Tube and a few History Channel programs. The whole idea
of redemptive violence (the idea that some good can come
of the use of it), whether employed by terrorists or
liberators, is a dead end street: it goes nowhere, leads
to nowhere, and ends in destruction, anguish and tears.

thecavemaster Wrote:For teens mired in poverty and limited opportunties, the
military (Army and Marines) can be made to look pretty
good. The burden of the implementation of war plans falls
upon those who "ain't no fortunate son." As a nation, we
don't pay the "grunts" very well; we don't take care of them
after they are wounded all that well. With that said, I
spent an hour or so yesterday watching footage of 9/11 on
You Tube and a few History Channel programs. The whole idea
of redemptive violence (the idea that some good can come
of the use of it), whether employed by terrorists or
liberators, is a dead end street: it goes nowhere, leads
to nowhere, and ends in destruction, anguish and tears.

How many "aint no fortunate sons" are there that start out at the upper or middle levels of any business? The military is like any other business. You start at the bottom and work your way up. Do you think that General Patton or Admiral Nimitz started out as officers? Just the same as the CEO of Microsoft or Wal Mart. In your opinion do you think that they would hire someone right out of high school as a first job in charge of the Eastern region of the United States? You put down the military like they are the only ones who take advantage of the young and under privileged. The whole country does it. I would be willing to bet the whole world does it. As much as it sounds like you want to cut down the armed forces for taking advantage of youths, remember they are fighting for your right to put them down also. Just like what was said in the football forum about ref bashing. Sign up, put on a uniform, build your way up then change the system.

One other thing, you mentioned the Army and Marines. Doesnt the Navy and Air Force do the same things?

BasketBallonlyfan Wrote:How many "aint no fortunate sons" are there that start out at the upper or middle levels of any business? The military is like any other business. You start at the bottom and work your way up. Do you think that General Patton or Admiral Nimitz started out as officers? Just the same as the CEO of Microsoft or Wal Mart. In your opinion do you think that they would hire someone right out of high school as a first job in charge of the Eastern region of the United States? You put down the military like they are the only ones who take advantage of the young and under privileged. The whole country does it. I would be willing to bet the whole world does it. As much as it sounds like you want to cut down the armed forces for taking advantage of youths, remember they are fighting for your right to put them down also. Just like what was said in the football forum about ref bashing. Sign up, put on a uniform, build your way up then change the system.

One other thing, you mentioned the Army and Marines. Doesnt the Navy and Air Force do the same things?

Are you saying that Private Menendez from Houston, Texas, child
of poverty, GED, is going to rise to Patton level? What you
did was to create a straw man, then destroy it. In fact, you
sound a bit like Colonel Nathan Jessup in that Tom Cruise movie.
PLEASE stop saying that the troops are fighting for me. They are fighting at the command of the President and their ranking officers. I did not send them to Iraq. You do not have to
become a member of the system in order to quarrel with the system...unless, of course, apparently, one lives in your
world...

thecavemaster Wrote:Are you saying that Private Menendez from Houston, Texas, child
of poverty, GED, is going to rise to Patton level? What you
did was to create a straw man, then destroy it. In fact, you
sound a bit like Colonel Nathan Jessup in that Tom Cruise movie.
PLEASE stop saying that the troops are fighting for me. They are fighting at the command of the President and their ranking officers. I did not send them to Iraq. You do not have to
become a member of the system in order to quarrel with the system...unless, of course, apparently, one lives in your
world...

Sounds to me like you are living in your own world. Lets go back to what you said earlier. "I
spent an hour or so yesterday watching footage of 9/11 on
You Tube and a few History Channel programs." Good to see you spent a whole hour on u-tube and watched a few history channel programs. Then you keep making your whole argument based on what is said in movies and on tv. I lived the life, I knew what the military was like when I quit college to join.

I did not say they was fighting for you. Every time our troops goes anywhere for any reason. It doesnt matter if it is a humanitarian mission or even going to war, the troops represent the Constitution of of the United States, not the President or any officer, The Constitution represents you. So yes, they are there for your freedom.

As far as Private Mendendez from Houston Texas, I have no idea what kind of person he is. How about Sergent Major Fenton Reese from Brooklyn New Yourk. A fit black man who is the Sergent Major of the Marine Corps. To say if you are a minority in the military you wont get far is a misconception.

thecavemaster Wrote:
PLEASE stop saying that the troops are fighting for me.

What do you mean they are not fighting for you? If I assume correctly, you are living in the United States of America and are probably a citizen of then great country. Anytime an individual wears the uniform of the USA, they are out there fighting and risking their life for YOU and all of us. And actually you did send them to fight. It was approved by Congress for these great men to go fight and guess what, you voted for the members of Congress to represent you. You might not be old enough to vote, but at least your parents elected these officials to represent you so stand behind our troops and support them 100%. Heck, we all know they are standing on the lines risking their lives 100% keeping you safe.

Beef Wrote:What do you mean they are not fighting for you? If I assume correctly, you are living in the United States of America and are probably a citizen of then great country. Anytime an individual wears the uniform of the USA, they are out there fighting and risking their life for YOU and all of us. And actually you did send them to fight. It was approved by Congress for these great men to go fight and guess what, you voted for the members of Congress to represent you. You might not be old enough to vote, but at least your parents elected these officials to represent you so stand behind our troops and support them 100%. Heck, we all know they are standing on the lines risking their lives 100% keeping you safe.

I was born in the United States...but what did I have to do with
that? What did you have to do with that? The troops are in Iraq risking their lives at the command of the President, with
the approval of Congress (2003). No, I did not send them to
fight...sent every member of my Congressional delegation a
letter stating so and will not vote for anyone who sent
troops to Iraq (Al Qaeda was in Afghanistan). "Stand behind
the troops"? What does that mean? I did not want my
neighbor (Robert, National Guard, to be hit with an IED and
have a plate in his head, and return home addled and lost),
nor do I want any U.S. serviceman to stay in Iraq one more
minute. Could I not say to you, "Hey, bud, YOU support the
troops...support their immediate withdrawal." If they are
keeping me safter than I was on 9-10-01, I thank them.
However, I don't believe that. In 1993, WTC was attacked.
Then, eight years later, WTC's were destroyed. The "enemy"
attacked the center of commerce, the center of defense,
and wanted the White House and/or U.S. capital (symbolic
center of power)... I don't think they were coming to my
house. It was a symbolic attack, consistent with the message
of many radical Moslem clerics, namely that greed-rooted
capitalism and imperialistic policies are a direct threat
to Moslem purity and sovereignty. Enough.

The facts are this, you are safer in this country than you are in any country in the world. People who live in Europe and Germany would love to only have one terrorist attack in 6 years. My only argument is that you are saying how the armed forces works to the advantage of the upper class and keeps lower classes down which in fact is not true. You watch videos on u-tube and try to convince someone who was in the military how the military is. I post from personal experience and you are posting according to movies, tv, and u tube. This may be a news flash for you, but Hollywood movies are not true. Even ones that say they are based on true events.

As far as the troops fighting for you, as much as you want to deny it, yes they are. Our warriors fight for everyone in the country that cant fight for themselves. Not only are they fighting for you, but also for your way of life which it sounds like you dont appreciate. You know, the way you live right now. At least when you are complaining about how the country is ran, and the wars that we are in right now, you should at least thank the people you are complaining about for giving you the freedom to do so.

BasketBallonlyfan Wrote:The facts are this, you are safer in this country than you are in any country in the world. People who live in Europe and Germany would love to only have one terrorist attack in 6 years. My only argument is that you are saying how the armed forces works to the advantage of the upper class and keeps lower classes down which in fact is not true. You watch videos on u-tube and try to convince someone who was in the military how the military is. I post from personal experience and you are posting according to movies, tv, and u tube. This may be a news flash for you, but Hollywood movies are not true. Even ones that say they are based on true events.

As far as the troops fighting for you, as much as you want to deny it, yes they are. Our warriors fight for everyone in the country that cant fight for themselves. Not only are they fighting for you, but also for your way of life which it sounds like you dont appreciate. You know, the way you live right now. At least when you are complaining about how the country is ran, and the wars that we are in right now, you should at least thank the people you are complaining about for giving you the freedom to do so.

Movies? TV? You Tube? Let me understand this: as part of your
"argument" you are asserting that I think Hollywood movies are
true? Of course, for your purposes, it couldn't be based on
declassified governmental reports on average income of the
typical army/marine recruit when they enter. It couldn't be.
No, you'd rather live in the fluff of your own imaginations.
Plus, how do you know how I live? It sounds like you are
a "America...love it or leave it" type. Does it occur to you
that it was our Founding Fathers who believed that that type
of patriotism was actually no patriotism at all? It is
not ingratitude toward the troops to question the policy
decisions that put them in harm's way. To think otherwise,
is, in my opinion, a betrayal of the very principles upon
which America was founded.

thecavemaster Wrote:Movies? TV? You Tube? Let me understand this: as part of your
"argument" you are asserting that I think Hollywood movies are
true? Of course, for your purposes, it couldn't be based on
declassified governmental reports on average income of the
typical army/marine recruit when they enter. It couldn't be.
No, you'd rather live in the fluff of your own imaginations.
Plus, how do you know how I live? It sounds like you are
a "America...love it or leave it" type. Does it occur to you
that it was our Founding Fathers who believed that that type
of patriotism was actually no patriotism at all? It is
not ingratitude toward the troops to question the policy
decisions that put them in harm's way. To think otherwise,
is, in my opinion, a betrayal of the very principles upon
which America was founded.

You are the one who brought up movies, tv, and utube. Yes, the average income of a base recruit before enlisting isnt very much if they even have a job. The whole point is, it is a volunteer military in this country. No one forced them to join just the same as no one is forcing you to do what you are doing. Why put down one person for their career path?

One more thing about Private Mendendez, he would have to be in the Army because the Marines wont let you join with a GED. But no, I am not the love it or leave it type. I just know that you have the freedom to leave if you choose to. Some places in the world that isnt possible. I just think it is very funny that you chose to argue about something you dont have a clue about. Even when you make points that you think is true, you get rebutted so you change your argument to something else hoping you can get one point across. Watch some more History Channel or utube to get another point that you think you know so much about. On right now, there is a show about blood diamonds.

Well this one has certainly strayed from it's original intent.

Closed.