Let me start this off by letting everyone know I do NOT have a kid that plays football anymore. I am many years removed from having a kid playing grade school football not to mention when I did the kid rarely left the field unless it was a blowout game either way.
I am still a fan of grade school football and I try to take in a couple games weekly. Although I am a Prestonsburg Blackcat fan I have only been to one of their grade school games this year, so I am not referring to their program either. Just wanted to clear those facts up before I went on my rant.
I have dabbled in coaching at the grade school level in the past. During that time I have been on both ends of a blowout. When we was in a blowout out, no matter which end, we made sure each and every kid got in the game. All kids come to practice each day and all put in the same amount of time. I understand kids have different skill levels and that's why you have your starters and your bench, but during a blowout when a game is out of hand each kid on that team should see some action on the field. I have been to several such games this year that team A would be up 20+ points over team B with 2-3 minutes left in the game, and team A on offense would have their bench in while team B would still have their starters in the game. Come on you team B coaches, let the guys standing on the sidelines 90% of the time that put in as much work as the guys on the field 90% of the time, have those last 2-3 minutes of the game.
#1 Blackcat Fan Wrote:Let me start this off by letting everyone know I do NOT have a kid that plays football anymore. I am many years removed from having a kid playing grade school football not to mention when I did the kid rarely left the field unless it was a blowout game either way.
I am still a fan of grade school football and I try to take in a couple games weekly. Although I am a Prestonsburg Blackcat fan I have only been to one of their grade school games this year, so I am not referring to their program either. Just wanted to clear those facts up before I went on my rant.
I have dabbled in coaching at the grade school level in the past. During that time I have been on both ends of a blowout. When we was in a blowout out, no matter which end, we made sure each and every kid got in the game. All kids come to practice each day and all put in the same amount of time. I understand kids have different skill levels and that's why you have your starters and your bench, but during a blowout when a game is out of hand each kid on that team should see some action on the field. I have been to several such games this year that team A would be up 20+ points over team B with 2-3 minutes left in the game, and team A on offense would have their bench in while team B would still have their starters in the game. Come on you team B coaches, let the guys standing on the sidelines 90% of the time that put in as much work as the guys on the field 90% of the time, have those last 2-3 minutes of the game.
My biggest pet peeve. Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. I totally agree with you 100000000%.
#1 Blackcat Fan Wrote:Let me start this off by letting everyone know I do NOT have a kid that plays football anymore. I am many years removed from having a kid playing grade school football not to mention when I did the kid rarely left the field unless it was a blowout game either way.
I am still a fan of grade school football and I try to take in a couple games weekly. Although I am a Prestonsburg Blackcat fan I have only been to one of their grade school games this year, so I am not referring to their program either. Just wanted to clear those facts up before I went on my rant.
I have dabbled in coaching at the grade school level in the past. During that time I have been on both ends of a blowout. When we was in a blowout out, no matter which end, we made sure each and every kid got in the game. All kids come to practice each day and all put in the same amount of time. I understand kids have different skill levels and that's why you have your starters and your bench, but during a blowout when a game is out of hand each kid on that team should see some action on the field. I have been to several such games this year that team A would be up 20+ points over team B with 2-3 minutes left in the game, and team A on offense would have their bench in while team B would still have their starters in the game. Come on you team B coaches, let the guys standing on the sidelines 90% of the time that put in as much work as the guys on the field 90% of the time, have those last 2-3 minutes of the game.
Same here #1, that is what can kill interest.
TigerBlues Wrote:Same here #1, that is what can kill interest.
Look no further than the Pikeville roster for proof of that. It is what concerns me. Look at the freshman class number. Not trying to be a stick stirring a pot, just pointing out the truth. And yes, I do have a son playing at the junior high level, so I see the effect of decisions like that scenario #1 Blackcat points out. 5 freshmen. That coincides with the change in junior high coaches there. I normally try to stay out of things like this because I have personally seen what happens when you try to point things out like this to coaches. They need to see the big picture and that they should be instructors of the game and develop kids for the high school programs, as well as shoring up confidence in skill sets by giving kids chances rather than relying in a select number. High school programs suffer from decisions like the original rant, and safety of kids is compromised as well.
My response is to #3 post about kids losing interest.
^ My point exactly. You can see some of these kids on the sideline just looking at the clock and scoreboard thinking they are getting in the game. You can see the parents doing the same. This is the time for these kids to learn and gain interest in the game. Practicing all week and standing on the sidelines in a blowout does NOT gain interest in the game of football at this age.
In my opinion, this could be why so many kids don't continue the sport in high school. Truth of the matter is some are just late bloomers. Who knows what they may be capable of if they keep interest and keep learning.
More truer words have never been spoken #1. I also agree that this is what kills interest in the sports for the kids coming off the bench. It's hard to understand what the coaches are thinking sometimes.
PHSForever Wrote:Look no further than the Pikeville roster for proof of that. It is what concerns me. Look at the freshman class number. Not trying to be a stick stirring a pot, just pointing out the truth. And yes, I do have a son playing at the junior high level, so I see the effect of decisions like that scenario #1 Blackcat points out. 5 freshmen. That coincides with the change in junior high coaches there. I normally try to stay out of things like this because I have personally seen what happens when you try to point things out like this to coaches. They need to see the big picture and that they should be instructors of the game and develop kids for the high school programs, as well as shoring up confidence in skill sets by giving kids chances rather than relying in a select number. High school programs suffer from decisions like the original rant, and safety of kids is compromised as well.
PHS Forever I hear you loud and clear, you saw first hand last night about what #1 Blackcat was saying to a degree. We dress 16 kids 16 !!! For combined middle school football which if you do the math doesn't look promising for the future. All this holdback garbage has seperates the classes of kids and now it's all lopsided. I don't have an answer but some kids don't come out because of that too knowing they will get trucked by a kid older and stronger than them but in the same grade. Just sayin.
TigerBlues Wrote:PHS Forever I hear you loud and clear, you saw first hand last night about what #1 Blackcat was saying to a degree. We dress 16 kids 16 !!! For combined middle school football which if you do the math doesn't look promising for the future. All this holdback garbage has seperates the classes of kids and now it's all lopsided. I don't have an answer but some kids don't come out because of that too knowing they will get trucked by a kid older and stronger than them but in the same grade. Just sayin.
I agree. The ones you DO have are quality, but quantity is needed too. I was surprised by the numbers, kept waiting for more to get off the bus. Of course, Pikeville dresses 33 (well, 31 now if rumor I heard is true) and I believe I counted about 16 that played last night. No offense to Paintsville, but if I'm the Pikeville coach, I'm running fresh legs in and out all night to wear you guys down and break open the game. Situational subbing, done correctly, makes a team even stronger. Oh well. Hope it gets better. Now it is almost time to watch the big boys play! See y'all at the game!
I don't believe anyone would disagree with kids being played in a blowout or as you say a 20 point game... but what do you do with the kids who show up after practice has been going on two weeks...or who come in last in conditioning drills from lack of effort not ability...or even worse don't want to play football but dad wants them too...I think most coaches do a good job of playing kids according to ability and effort..but after coaching for 11 years I believe it is the parents responsibility to instill a work effort in kids ...more than a coach being blamed because a kid doesn't play as much as a parent desires..
I've coached at the Junior High, Little League, and now at the 5th-6th level here at Pikeville. Most of you on here from Pikeville know who I am and I don't hide that. While I agree that the more kids you get involved and keep engaged the more will stick with it and that philosophy is what what we try to go by. But allow me to give you a coaches perspective. Let's say you have a kid who is talented but doesn't want reps in practices. He constantly goofs off in practice and is more concerned with talking to his friends than paying attention no matter what the coach does to deter this behavior, the child still is insistent on doing it his way. While I'm not saying that this kid is nessacarily a bad kid or the coaches don't like him. It is, however, very hard to put those kids in a game even in a blowout because you feel like you're rewarding that kind of behavior. These kids, even though they are still young need to learn that just showing up isn't enough. That's true in life as well as football. I don't know what PHSForevers situation is or even who they or who their child is. So I'm not aiming that at you or anyone else. Im not saying that the example I've given is always the case. There are some complete idiot coaches out there that only care about their own kids and you don't have to be a genius to identify them. I'm just trying to give you a coaches perspective.
HAIL PIKEVILLE! Wrote:I've coached at the Junior High, Little League, and now at the 5th-6th level here at Pikeville. Most of you on here from Pikeville know who I am and I don't hide that. While I agree that the more kids you get involved and keep engaged the more will stick with it and that philosophy is what what we try to go by. But allow me to give you a coaches perspective. Let's say you have a kid who is talented but doesn't want reps in practices. He constantly goofs off in practice and is more concerned with talking to his friends than paying attention no matter what the coach does to deter this behavior, the child still is insistent on doing it his way. While I'm not saying that this kid is nessacarily a bad kid or the coaches don't like him. It is, however, very hard to put those kids in a game even in a blowout because you feel like you're rewarding that kind of behavior. These kids, even though they are still young need to learn that just showing up isn't enough. That's true in life as well as football. I don't know what PHSForevers situation is or even who they or who their child is. So I'm not aiming that at you or anyone else. Im not saying that the example I've given is always the case. There are some complete idiot coaches out there that only care about their own kids and you don't have to be a genius to identify them. I'm just trying to give you a coaches perspective.
I don't disagree, that is a valid point. But I see something like that happen, and I would be thinking of ways to engage the kids. Working on offense? Still need a D in front of them, rotate those kids in and out on D so they are involved. Little things like that. Too many times I see kids standing for 30-40 minutes of practice with no engagement from the coaches at all. That is valuable teaching time being wasted. But I'm just agreeing with the original post, I've got no complaints about my son. I worry about them not being able to keep their numbers up as a school, and I want all the kids to feel a part of the team. But absolutely, if they are jacking around in practice, that's a chance for the coach to get their attention with running or engagement in the drill too. If still doesn't work, then nothing you can do and I agree with not playing them because it can put them in danger of injury from not being prepared. It's a tough decision and a tough job. I've been a coach as well, so I know what it is like. You want them to succeed, but it is hard if they don't give effort. I think this is probably one of the most "talked around" topics. It needs to be addressed head on but many parents don't want to hear the truth that their kid is slacking, and SOMETIMES some coaches don't want to listen to good advice or suggestions.
True. But what about the kid that has been to every conditioning and every practice? The kid that, according to the coach when asked, works hard in practice and does what he supposed to do? The kid whose dad doesn't hang around every practice or stand behind the bench during games? Shouldn't he play more than one play in a game? Shouldn't he be rewarded for hard work? I can see how a kid would lose interest if they give it their all and are not rewarded for it.
HAIL PIKEVILLE! Wrote:I've coached at the Junior High, Little League, and now at the 5th-6th level here at Pikeville. Most of you on here from Pikeville know who I am and I don't hide that. While I agree that the more kids you get involved and keep engaged the more will stick with it and that philosophy is what what we try to go by. But allow me to give you a coaches perspective. Let's say you have a kid who is talented but doesn't want reps in practices. He constantly goofs off in practice and is more concerned with talking to his friends than paying attention no matter what the coach does to deter this behavior, the child still is insistent on doing it his way. While I'm not saying that this kid is nessacarily a bad kid or the coaches don't like him. It is, however, very hard to put those kids in a game even in a blowout because you feel like you're rewarding that kind of behavior. These kids, even though they are still young need to learn that just showing up isn't enough. That's true in life as well as football. I don't know what PHSForevers situation is or even who they or who their child is. So I'm not aiming that at you or anyone else. Im not saying that the example I've given is always the case. There are some complete idiot coaches out there that only care about their own kids and you don't have to be a genius to identify them. I'm just trying to give you a coaches perspective.
No offense HP, but don't think that the situation you're describing is what was mentioned in the original post. I believe the original poster was talking about a situation where a coach leaves all the starters in all the way to the end, even though the game is well in hand.
I would be very upset if I was a kid who came to all the practices, worked hard, and still never got to play. It would probably make me want to quit. I mean, why come to practice and bust my butt if I never got to see the field? Also, if it was my kid in that situation, I would be upset too.
Thankfully, I have not had any complaints about that at our school. Our coaches at Valley have always subbed whenever the game got out of hand. As the father of a kid who is playing on the second string this year, that's all I could ask for.
More Cowbell Wrote:No offense HP, but don't think that the situation you're describing is what was mentioned in the original post. I believe the original poster was talking about a situation where a coach leaves all the starters in all the way to the end, even though the game is well in hand.
I would be very upset if I was a kid who came to all the practices, worked hard, and still never got to play. It would probably make me want to quit. I mean, why come to practice and bust my butt if I never got to see the field? Also, if it was my kid in that situation, I would be upset too.
Thankfully, I have not had any complaints about that at our school. Our coaches at Valley have always subbed whenever the game got out of hand. As the father of a kid who is playing on the second string this year, that's all I could ask for.
No offense taken. But do not misunderstand me. Keeping starters in a game in a blowout situation either way is just plain foolish. Not giving kids who work hard a chance is a program killer. Last week @ Johns Creek we only won 16-8 and still everyone on our team got a least 1-2 snaps. All I was doing in my original post is giving those who don't coach a little perspective from our end.
PHSForever Wrote:I don't disagree, that is a valid point. But I see something like that happen, and I would be thinking of ways to engage the kids. Working on offense? Still need a D in front of them, rotate those kids in and out on D so they are involved. Little things like that. Too many times I see kids standing for 30-40 minutes of practice with no engagement from the coaches at all. That is valuable teaching time being wasted. But I'm just agreeing with the original post, I've got no complaints about my son. I worry about them not being able to keep their numbers up as a school, and I want all the kids to feel a part of the team. But absolutely, if they are jacking around in practice, that's a chance for the coach to get their attention with running or engagement in the drill too. If still doesn't work, then nothing you can do and I agree with not playing them because it can put them in danger of injury from not being prepared. It's a tough decision and a tough job. I've been a coach as well, so I know what it is like. You want them to succeed, but it is hard if they don't give effort. I think this is probably one of the most "talked around" topics. It needs to be addressed head on but many parents don't want to hear the truth that their kid is slacking, and SOMETIMES some coaches don't want to listen to good advice or suggestions.
Trust me I do think of what more I can do. I throw everything but the kitchen sink @ the kid (Figurivtely speaking of course HAHA!) But there are just sometimes you just have to focus on the ones who do want to learn and hopefully the others will follow.
PHSForever Wrote:Look no further than the Pikeville roster for proof of that. It is what concerns me. Look at the freshman class number. Not trying to be a stick stirring a pot, just pointing out the truth. And yes, I do have a son playing at the junior high level, so I see the effect of decisions like that scenario #1 Blackcat points out. 5 freshmen. That coincides with the change in junior high coaches there. I normally try to stay out of things like this because I have personally seen what happens when you try to point things out like this to coaches. They need to see the big picture and that they should be instructors of the game and develop kids for the high school programs, as well as shoring up confidence in skill sets by giving kids chances rather than relying in a select number. High school programs suffer from decisions like the original rant, and safety of kids is compromised as well.
I think Hail Pikeville spoke very concisely and truthfully about what coaches deal with on a daily basis...once again no one is arguing in a blowout that all kids should play...however once again if your child has an issue with math you don't blame the teacher.. you get your child help...athletics is no different.. a coach cannot spend 5-6 hrs a week with a child who has questionable ability and make a huge difference in his performance... once again parents should seek to help this child themselves or find someone who can..
jmhsrv1970 Wrote:I think Hail Pikeville spoke very concisely and truthfully about what coaches deal with on a daily basis...once again no one is arguing in a blowout that all kids should play...however once again if your child has an issue with math you don't blame the teacher.. you get your child help...athletics is no different.. a coach cannot spend 5-6 hrs a week with a child who has questionable ability and make a huge difference in his performance... once again parents should seek to help this child themselves or find someone who can..
I take no issue with what HailPikeville says. As a matter of fact, if you read closely, I agree with him. I was speaking to coaches who spend all their time in practice on a select few and never even bother engaging the other players, involving them in live action practice, etc. if you do, and the kid still doesn't want to put forth the effort or pay attention, then absolutely reward the others and not that kid. No problems at all with that approach. And for what it is worth, HailPikeville, I'm not questioning YOUR coaching tactics. Like I said, I was pointing out the ones who do not try to teach beyond just a few, THEY hurt programs and hold kids back. Parents can spend all they want on outside help, but if the kid doesn't even get a chance in practice, how can they show what they can do? I've coached sports before, and played up to the college level. I see both sides honestly. Just playing devils advocate and saying I agree with the INTENT of #1blackcat's post.
HAIL PIKEVILLE! Wrote:Trust me I do think of what more I can do. I throw everything but the kitchen sink @ the kid (Figurivtely speaking of course HAHA!) But there are just sometimes you just have to focus on the ones who do want to learn and hopefully the others will follow.
And I was agreeing with you. If they don't want to learn and you've tried to engage them, absolutely expend more energy on the ones who DO stay engaged. Again, not at all knocking your coaching or even your point of view really. Just pointing out SOME coaches may not always share your eagerness or passion to try and actually coach all their players, just a few.
HAIL PIKEVILLE! Wrote:I've coached at the Junior High, Little League, and now at the 5th-6th level here at Pikeville. Most of you on here from Pikeville know who I am and I don't hide that. While I agree that the more kids you get involved and keep engaged the more will stick with it and that philosophy is what what we try to go by. But allow me to give you a coaches perspective. Let's say you have a kid who is talented but doesn't want reps in practices. He constantly goofs off in practice and is more concerned with talking to his friends than paying attention no matter what the coach does to deter this behavior, the child still is insistent on doing it his way. While I'm not saying that this kid is nessacarily a bad kid or the coaches don't like him. It is, however, very hard to put those kids in a game even in a blowout because you feel like you're rewarding that kind of behavior. These kids, even though they are still young need to learn that just showing up isn't enough. That's true in life as well as football. I don't know what PHSForevers situation is or even who they or who their child is. So I'm not aiming that at you or anyone else. Im not saying that the example I've given is always the case. There are some complete idiot coaches out there that only care about their own kids and you don't have to be a genius to identify them. I'm just trying to give you a coaches perspective.
You run his behind off till he decides if he wants to quit or put forth the effort.
My original post was not directed at this type of kid. My post was directed at the less talented, but shows up and puts forth the effort type of kid. One of the games I witnessed a particular team had around 30 players. I seen a total of 16 kids get in this game. The team was down 20+ points with less than 3 minutes left in the game. That is not the only team. I have seen others. That is why I started the thread. I was just using that one as an example.
I have yet to see Pikeville play this year, so I am not talking about you coach. Just wanted to clear that up.
I have more, but I'm busy at the moment. I shall return.
PHSForever Wrote:I don't disagree, that is a valid point. But I see something like that happen, and I would be thinking of ways to engage the kids. Working on offense? Still need a D in front of them, rotate those kids in and out on D so they are involved. Little things like that. Too many times I see kids standing for 30-40 minutes of practice with no engagement from the coaches at all. That is valuable teaching time being wasted. But I'm just agreeing with the original post, I've got no complaints about my son. I worry about them not being able to keep their numbers up as a school, and I want all the kids to feel a part of the team. But absolutely, if they are jacking around in practice, that's a chance for the coach to get their attention with running or engagement in the drill too. If still doesn't work, then nothing you can do and I agree with not playing them because it can put them in danger of injury from not being prepared. It's a tough decision and a tough job. I've been a coach as well, so I know what it is like. You want them to succeed, but it is hard if they don't give effort. I think this is probably one of the most "talked around" topics. It needs to be addressed head on but many parents don't want to hear the truth that their kid is slacking, and SOMETIMES some coaches don't want to listen to good advice or suggestions.
This should never happen. They are to many coaches standing on the sidelines of these games. Kids should be involved in something during practice.
#1 Blackcat Fan Wrote:This should never happen. They are to many coaches standing on the sidelines of these games. Kids should be involved in something during practice.
I also think some of it is coaches who forget where they are and they start thinking about nothing but winning. Some of the said coaches are buisy trying to get noticed because they want to further their coaching career IMO.
TigerBlues Wrote:PHS Forever I hear you loud and clear, you saw first hand last night about what #1 Blackcat was saying to a degree. We dress 16 kids 16 !!! For combined middle school football which if you do the math doesn't look promising for the future. All this holdback garbage has seperates the classes of kids and now it's all lopsided. I don't have an answer but some kids don't come out because of that too knowing they will get trucked by a kid older and stronger than them but in the same grade. Just sayin.
Yep.... That's the point I was trying to make in the "holding a kid back" thread on the main football forum.
:popcorn:
Another RANT, How can a 3A high school with 3 feeder schools be classified as a D3 school. When you have close to 50 kids on the middle school teams? Just wondering on this one?
Looking at the bracket... Who are you talking about? I don't see any 3a schools.
Remember kymsfa classifies using SARS report on two years data. Also they only do 3 divisions where khsaa does 6
Can you post the link to the SARS report, would be very interested in the numbers for a certain school. What is the cutoff for div 3 now?
What is the cut off for Div 3 numbers
is it boys in the class or total kids in the class and what is the range for this time period?
School in question has 405 kids in 7th and 8th (by the SARS report)so you are looking at 160 boys or less and 245 girls or more. Out of 160 boys 52 play football? So that would leave you with 98 BOYS still in those grades who do not play football.
As compared to 147 kids total in those grade if divided evenly would give you 73 boys if even. And those numbers say that a school with 73 boys and only 29 play football. But the real number is this. If correct then School in question has more boys by cut off than school B has in the entire school system. Which also translates to School A has 52 on roster compared to School B who has 73 boys total in school... Now does this seem right?
But it would be interesting to see if School A actually makes the cutoff... just wondering about that.