Bluegrassrivals

All the good, rational arguments for going back to 4 classes
regarding the competiton aspects tend to get shot down
here. So I wonder if there is any more receptiveness
for the logistical and economical reasons?

Travel costs jsut continue to rise, and our present 6 class
system is very problematic. There's no perfect system,
but fewer classes allows for more compact districts.
And the playoff alignment makes for some just outrageous
possibilities. As I've pointed out in other threads, Bell
Co. could potentially meet Paducah Tilghman in one scenario.
And you can parse it with speed averages all you want,
you aren't going to make that trip on a bus in less than 8 hours
overall travel time.

In another unrelated thread someone was talking about
non-district scheduling too. And something that people
just probably won't consciously admit, is the mental
barrier class differential makes. It's not necessarily even
rational, but in the back of their minds a 2A school coach
just might automatically make off even considering asking
for a game with a 5A program, whereas the same coach
might go for it the same school was a 3A school in a 4 class
system. As well as all the other variations of that scenario.

It's been well established that those who prefer a 6 class
system, ARDENTLY support that system. And the KHSAA
in its infinite LACK of wisdom comes down on that side.
Too bad only emotional arguments support it. All
the ones based on logic support going back to 4.

Observing Wrote:All the good, rational arguments for going back to 4 classes
regarding the competiton aspects tend to get shot down
here. So I wonder if there is any more receptiveness
for the logistical and economical reasons?

Travel costs jsut continue to rise, and our present 6 class
system is very problematic. There's no perfect system,
but fewer classes allows for more compact districts.
And the playoff alignment makes for some just outrageous
possibilities. As I've pointed out in other threads, Bell
Co. could potentially meet Paducah Tilghman in one scenario.
And you can parse it with speed averages all you want,
you aren't going to make that trip on a bus in less than 8 hours
overall travel time.

In another unrelated thread someone was talking about
non-district scheduling too. And something that people
just probably won't consciously admit, is the mental
barrier class differential makes. It's not necessarily even
rational, but in the back of their minds a 2A school coach
just might automatically make off even considering asking
for a game with a 5A program, whereas the same coach
might go for it the same school was a 3A school in a 4 class
system. As well as all the other variations of that scenario.

It's been well established that those who prefer a 6 class
system, ARDENTLY support that system. And the KHSAA
in its infinite LACK of wisdom comes down on that side.
Too bad only emotional arguments support it. All
the ones based on logic support going back to 4.

The rationale you described is the same that is used by people who support more gun control. You can show them facts all day long but they use emotional arguments instead of facts.

They did the 6 classes for the sole reason of having more championships to give so that Trinity/St. X, Highlands, Mayfield, etc... do not win every single title every single year.

I do not support the traditional 4 class format, BUT I have proposed a 5 class formula that makes travel very simple, saves money and there are still 5 classes so the HUGE schools can have their own district and the small schools can have their own, and everyone else would be in 3 classes.

If I can find where I posted that, I will repost it. The furthest anyone had to travel for a district game was 1 hour and 15 minutes. In the old 4 class format I remember schools traveling about 2 hours for games anyway.

6 classes is definitely too much. It has diminished the value of a championship by quite a bit. It's so much easier for a team to win now that it doesn't mean as much.

LWC Wrote:They did the 6 classes for the sole reason of having more championships to give so that Trinity/St. X, Highlands, Mayfield, etc... do not win every single title every single year.

I do not support the traditional 4 class format, BUT I have proposed a 5 class formula that makes travel very simple, saves money and there are still 5 classes so the HUGE schools can have their own district and the small schools can have their own, and everyone else would be in 3 classes.

If I can find where I posted that, I will repost it. The furthest anyone had to travel for a district game was 1 hour and 15 minutes. In the old 4 class format I remember schools traveling about 2 hours for games anyway.

Lol 6 classes made it leaps and bounds easier for Mayfield (And for that matter any Class A school) to win it every year. Think about schools like LCA, Somerset, NewCath, Danville, etc.... That would provide a much tougher road to a title in the old system.

5 would be an improvement. 4 is still the best, IMO. It should not be competition based, but based on common freaking sense. There are barely enough teams in Kentucky for this, in fact, one class has to send a 5th place district team to another district for playoff purposes. And consolidation isn't exactly going anywhere.

There are teams that have no business in the playoffs playing in them and 90% of first round games are jokes.

It cuts down travel, which for some schools it would be great in this economy.

It adds value to games and championships whether it be district, region, or state.

At a point, you have to lose the mentality that everyone should have a trophy. In Kentucky there are not enough schools to warrant a 6-Class system. There may be some large variations in enrollment, but so be it. Is that not fair? Maybe, but life isn't exactly "fair". It was a system that worked for a long, long time and would still work now.

I was on the Board of Control when we adopted 6 classes. It was not an emotional decision for me. If I had allowed my emotions to base my decision, I would have voted against going to 6 classes as I felt 6 classes would do more harm than good for Highlands football. I played at Highlands, both of my sons played for Highlands and I am still involved as a supporter of Highlands football. Heck, the head coach at Highlands told me in very certain terms that he was opposed to 6 classes. So if I was going to allow emotions to make my decision, I would have voted against 6 classes. But I didn't.

Why did I vote for 6 classes then, you wonder.

There is little argument against the proposition that going to 6 classes would result in districts being spread out and travel distances and costs for district games increased.This issue was carefully considered and discussed with Superintendents, Principals, ADs and coaches.

With 20 of the 6 Class districts having 5 teams, and with a team playing 2 of its opponents home each year and 2 of them away each year, a school would only have at worst two long district games each year. The rest of the schedule could be filled with closer, out of district opponents. 22 of the districts only have 4 teams, which meant that in one year a team would only have at worst 1 long district game, with the following year having 2 long district games. Only 6 districts have 6 teams, with the possibility of 3 long district games every other year. So the thinking was that the district play would not create a huge increase in any one's travel budget in any one year.

I believed and still believe that allowing more schools to advance further in the playoffs would/will help build excitement in the community for the game of football. That wasn't an issue at Highlands, but there were plenty of schools that could use some success to help build success. Has that happened? You'd have to ask those folks in the communities where their teams would not have made it to the quarter finals, the semi finals or the state game if we had stayed with 4 classes if that has happened. I was in attendance for the state game that Allen County Scottville played in. Don't know what has happened in that community since that game, but the enthusiasm and support of the community for that game was off the charts. I'd hope there has been some carry over effect.

Those of us that are old timers know that in 1975, after we went from 3 classes to 4 classes, the enthusiasm for football in Ky picked up. We felt more teams making it deep into the playoffs played a huge role in that happening. Could we be certain? No. But we were pretty confident it did. We felt by going with 6 classes, we'd have more than just the typical 8 teams being in the finals. Has that happened? Yes it somewhat has. When was the last time Allen County Scottville went to the finals? Glascow? Scott County? If we have 4 classes, I doubt that any of those teams (and some others) make it to state. Sure it has watered down the competition and allowed some teams to make it further than they otherwise would have, but if by doing so we can increase the enthusiasm for the game and build on its popularity, we felt the positives outweighed the negatives? Were we wrong? I don't know if anyone can at this point fairly answer that question.

Finally, we did want to decrease the size disparities in as many classes as possible. I favored a different method, but that would have created differing numbers of teams in more than just 1A and 6A. The smallest school in one class would have the same size disparity vs the largest school in that class for every class. Admittedly, it would have resulted in other problems come playoff time.

But we did what we did not based on emotions. We really did talk this thing through quite seriously and thought about it a lot. Did we make the right decision? I think so but I honestly don't know that for certain yet.

Bell Co being in the West in 3A is just plain stupid!!! A cave man could do better.

I mean Bell Co borders Virginia for godsake.

Charlie 22, it's VERY difficult to see Highlands argument. I would hope
that the Highlands coaching staff opposed going to 6 classes because
they relished competition. It is LAUGHABLE to suggest that it would harm
Highlands chances. ANY classification that further segregated the schools,
but put Highlands in a class other than Trinity's, could only IMPROVE
Highlands yearly chances.

As for improving enthusiasm, well that was a hollow arguement too.
H.S. football was growing in unprecedented popularity before this expansion.
And since its inception, it looks like first round beat downs in the playoffs
are just as prevalent(a CONTINUING home run reason for eliminating a
round of playoffs too). Somehow I just can't buy into MAKING the playoffs
as a sacrificical lamb is boosting enthusiasm anywhere.

know1 Wrote:6 classes is definitely too much. It has diminished the value of a championship by quite a bit. It's so much easier for a team to win now that it doesn't mean as much.

Ask any player, coach, fan if winning the State Championship was diminished because of 6 classes.nicker:

nky Wrote:Ask any player, coach, fan if winning the State Championship was diminished because of 6 classes.nicker:

I don't think they feel it's diminished cause they have nothing to compare it too. I know when I was in school Playing a playoff schedule that included bell co and rockcastle meant something if you won those games. I don't think cov cath throttling us Or highlands throttling Boyd meant anything cause no challenge was involved

Observing Wrote:Charlie 22, it's VERY difficult to see Highlands argument. I would hope
that the Highlands coaching staff opposed going to 6 classes because
they relished competition. It is LAUGHABLE to suggest that it would harm
Highlands chances. ANY classification that further segregated the schools,
but put Highlands in a class other than Trinity's, could only IMPROVE
Highlands yearly chances.

As for improving enthusiasm, well that was a hollow arguement too.
H.S. football was growing in unprecedented popularity before this expansion.
And since its inception, it looks like first round beat downs in the playoffs
are just as prevalent(a CONTINUING home run reason for eliminating a
round of playoffs too). Somehow I just can't buy into MAKING the playoffs
as a sacrificical lamb is boosting enthusiasm anywhere.

I realize you don't understand Highlands when you make those statements. Making it easier to win a state championship is simply not the way Highlands thinks. If it was, they'd have stayed in 3A for the first 4 years we went to 6 classes and just dealt with the increased distances. But they didn't do that, now did they? They moved up to 5A. And won it each of the 4 years. Does that sound like a program that wants it to be easy? Sure doesn't to me. But maybe you know more about Highlands than I do after living my entire life in Fort Thomas other than while in the Marines.

As for whether the 6 classes helps or hurts enthusiasm, you may very well be right. I don't think so, but you may be right. The KHSAA may after a couple of years go back to 4A or try 5A. The idea was to give it a try and see how it works out. If the coaches and administrators don't feel it has helped, my guess is the the BOC will change it.

tomcatfan722000 Wrote:I don't think they feel it's diminished cause they have nothing to compare it too. I know when I was in school Playing a playoff schedule that included bell co and rockcastle meant something if you won those games. I don't think covcath throttling us Or highlands throttling Boyd meant anything cause no challenge was involved

so winning in the playoffs don't mean anything today because of 6 classes?

Keep the 6 classes but divide the football playing teams equally between the classes. Make it a requirement to have won a game to make the play offs. 0-10 teams should never make the playoffs. If you need to give 1st round byes so be it. I would even be ok with the top three teams in a district making the playoffs with the number 1 seed getting a bye and 2 and 3 play each other

Let's go back to 3 classes, why does football need more classes than other sports? Track,cross country only have 3 classes, if it was 6 classes I am sure it would make it much easier for my kids and their teams to win individual and team titles,but who are you kidding? In fact, there is talk about Cross country going to one championship (no classes).Basketball has one class, volleyball one class?, soccer has one class. What makes football special?

Consolidation may very well force us back down to four classes soon enough anyways.

sstack Wrote:Let's go back to 3 classes, why does football need more classes than other sports? Track,cross country only have 3 classes, if it was 6 classes I am sure it would make it much easier for my kids and their teams to win individual and team titles,but who are you kidding? In fact, there is talk about Cross country going to one championship (no classes).Basketball has one class, volleyball one class?, soccer has one class. What makes football special?

You have to asknicker:

I think the 6 class format is ridiculous. I support going back to 4, or maybe 5 if they managed not to screw it up.

When I lived out west in CA and AZ, we had great systems, especially in AZ. My school in AZ was in the highest class, 5AA. We had around 3,500 students, which is more than any KY school I know of, and we weren't even close to the biggest in the state. But also, Arizona had a lot of smaller, rural schools like Kentucky does.

I would support something like that in Kentucky...if a normal 4 or 5 class system wouldn't work sufficiently, then add another division to the highest class for the programs that are significantly bigger than the majority of the other top class schools.

I just think the normal, 6 class system is unneeded and spreads to many teams out. Even teams with losing record are making the playoffs, which is RIDICULOUS.

We need 5 classes. 4 public and 1 private.

Make all of the "beating the dead horse" comments you like but private teams and public team are not on equal footing.

5 classes. 4 public and 1 private.

To my knowledge football is the ONLY sport in Kentucky High School Athletics where EVER team doesn't make the playoffs/district/region tournament.
If you don't want to be an 0-10 team traveling for a football playoff game, then DON'T be an 0-10 team.

64black&gold Wrote:We need 5 classes. 4 public and 1 private.

Make all of the "beating the dead horse" comments you like but private teams and public team are not on equal footing.

5 classes. 4 public and 1 private.

I think Highlands is more than on equal footing with the private teams! It has to do with coaching , players commitment,,school commitment and not private/public.

We DO NOT need a separate class for Private Schools...that would be a disaster.

I guess im in the minority, but i like that six class system.
I honestly believe it makes and equal playing field.

I would never want to see it go back to the old 4 class system. Who honestly thinks Letcher Central or any other school who would be 4A from the mountains, actually beat Trinity, ever?

5 Classes may work. I dont buy this bull crap nonsense that putting the private schools in there own division would hurt, because quite frankly i dont care about the private schools, but the khsaa will always cater to them.

With 5 classes, i would put ALLprivate schools in 5A, no matter enrollment. Then i would take the rest of the teams you see in 6A, along with the biggest schools from 5A and merge it all into one. Then the classes could be 1A(1-450) 2A (451-800) 3A (801-1100) 4A (1101-1500) 5A (Private schools, 1501-unlimited.)

nky Wrote:Ask any player, coach, fan if winning the State Championship was diminished because of 6 classes.nicker:

I'm a big fan and there's no doubt that it's much easier to win now than it was when there were 4 classes. A team had to be very, very good and get all the breaks and even then they still might not win. Now, they can just be very good and they have a shot.

It stands to reason that if it's easier, the value is diminished.

know1 Wrote:I'm a big fan and there's no doubt that it's much easier to win now than it was when there were 4 classes. A team had to be very, very good and get all the breaks and even then they still might not win. Now, they can just be very good and they have a shot.

It stands to reason that if it's easier, the value is diminished.

Of course it's easier. Then again, there are very few teams that can even begin to argue that it's too easy. At most, only 6. Those 6 that win state. As to every one else, I ask the question: if it's so dang easy, why didn't you win it? It sure wasn't too easy for all the schools other than the 6 that actually won state.

Looking at those 6, which ones could truly say it was easy? Trinity can the last two years and such is likely to be the case this year. But it wasn't too easy for them in 09 as they didn't win it. Highlands? Perhaps, based on the fact that they've won the last 5 in a row. But if we would have had 4 classes during those years, I'm very confident that they'd have still won state in 07, 08, 09 and 10. As for 11, if BG had been in Highlands class and not in the largest classification, a Highlands BG state final would have been one heck of a game and I'm really not sure who would have won that game.

Central? Again perhaps. But they missed a year and they were fortunate to get out of BG last year with a state title. It was a very hard fought game and it sure wasn't easy for them. So it's not exactly been a walk in the park for them every year.

No denying that we do have some early round blowouts. But I've seen early round blowouts for a long time and certainly before we went to 6 classes. For example, when I played back in the 70's, under the 4 class system I might add, when people hardly knew what the forward pass what and low scoring games were the norm, in 1975 we won our first playoff game 49-22 and the second playoff game 36-6. I and the other starters didn't play in the second half of either playoff game and every point scored by our opponents was in the second half against our 2nd and 3rd string. They were blowouts. There were blowouts then and there will be blowouts now.

I ask you to consider the impact that the changing offenses have had on the scores also. The development of the spread offenses with their quick strike and high scoring capabilities may be more of a factor than anything else in the blowout scores we are seeing today. When one team is considerably better and that team passes the ball, they can rack up huge amounts of points quickly. Back in the day when you ran the ball 90 plus percent of the time, it still took a fair amount of time to score even when playing a weaker opponent. A team might be able to drive the ball down their opponents throat, but generally, it takes more plays to score which means more time coming off the clock while in the huddle and during the action. Now, a deep pass for a score takes 15 seconds off the clock. Today's offenses have many, many more possessions to score.

Again, I respect and understand folks unhappiness with the 6 class system. I'd like to see it given some more time before it's abandoned. The every team or almost every team making the playoffs situation doesn't bother me at all however. That is the norm for every other sport that I can think of, so why should football be different? Because back in the day when the critics played, not everyone got in is not a good reason for me. Sorry.

BellCoBobcats09 Wrote:Bell Co being in the West in 3A is just plain stupid!!! A cave man could do better.

I understand that thinking totally. Although I'll point out what I pointed out to a bunch of folks from Fort Thomas that were complaining to me about the state finals being moved from Louisville to BG because they'd have to drive an additional hour and a half: it's one game a year and that's only if you are fortunate enough to even get that far. Part of me thinks the problem with some Bell Co. folks is not the fact that the game is so far, it's more a matter of who they have to play (Central).

BellCoBobcats09 Wrote:Bell Co being in the West in 3A is just plain stupid!!! A cave man could do better.

Couldn't agree more it makes no sense for Bell to have to travel to Louisville or vice versa for a REGIONAL championship game.

If they keep the 6 classes I think they should only take the top 2 teams in each district to the playoffs each season. Teams with 1,2, or 3 win teams have no bussiness making the playoffs.

So far, the dreaded Paducah to Log Mountain trip (or vice versa) has not materialized and there is not any imminent reason to think it would, given Central's ability to use its license as a "magnet" school to recruit countywide in Jefferson.

Thus far, Bell has made a trip to Louisville, which is not onerous. As much as Bell would like to play in a narrow competitive cluster and get a non-Central route to the title game, as late comers to 3A, they are certainly capable of being competitive in their district regardless of being tagged as east or west.

It really sounds like the Bell County fans are scared Central deprives them of their chance to get to the title game. And they look with envy at Belfry, which somehow occupies their spot in the finals.

Bell will have Central down there this year, assuming there are no upsets along the way. Lets see what happens.

charlie22 Wrote:I ask the question: if it's so dang easy, why didn't you win it? It sure wasn't too easy for all the schools other than the 6 that actually won state.

That's a weak argument and you know it. Just because it wasn't easy does not mean it was not easier.