Bluegrassrivals

I was attending Church Sunday morning and because curious about what the bible actually says. The preacher kept saying he was Paraphrasing the bible about how it was An abomination to be gay. And that god hated gays. So i was curious to what the bible actually says. I have read it a few times but don't remember Jesus actually being quoted on the subject.

Maybe you guys could help em out.

^
I think Leviticus 18:22 sums it up....

"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination"

As well as Lev. 20:13...

"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

Im not sure how it could get any clearer than that, which is why its funny to here gays say there is nothing in the bible against being gay.

I just gave them two things in 10 seconds.

RunItUpTheGut Wrote:Im not sure how it could get any clearer than that, which is why its funny to here gays say there is nothing in the bible against being gay.

I just gave them two things in 10 seconds.

I didn't think Christians followed mosaic law or the old testament.

There is some pretty crazy laws .

Wildcatk23 Wrote:I didn't think Christians followed mosaic law or the old testament.

There is some pretty crazy laws .

They pick and choose which ones to follow. There are 613 of them.

Look at Romans 1

particularly verses 23-32

RunItUpTheGut Wrote:^
I think Leviticus 18:22 sums it up....

"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination"

As well as Lev. 20:13...

"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

Leviticus is in the old testament. Jesus did not say these rules.
I have heard that Jesus never actually quoted saying anything about homosexuality. IDK if this is true or not.

Jarons Wrote:Leviticus is in the old testament. Jesus did not say these rules.
I have heard that Jesus never actually quoted saying anything about homosexuality. IDK if this is true or not.

Paul's words on homosexuality----Romans 1:18-28 (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: [COLOR="magenta"]for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly,[/COLOR] and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

I know the original question was what were Jesus' words on the matter but, consider this fact; God's written Word is an extention of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, this fact is evident when one considers the following verses from the gospel of John---

John 1:1-14 (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word (Jesus) , and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him (Jesus) was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him (Jesus) was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light (Jesus), that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light (Jesus), but was sent to bear witness of that Light (Jesus).
9 That was the true Light (Jesus), which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He (Jesus) was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He (Jesus) came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word (Jesus) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The point is this, as stated, the bible is an extention of the person of Jesus Christ. Therefore, Jesus either said it (as is demonstrated by 'red letter' editions of the bible) where quotes of His words on earth are recorded or, He inspired men to write it in the text of the bible. Either way, He has sanctioned the contents of scripture, and EVERYTHING is valid and the complete truth. It my belief that the Lord didn't carve out any specific sins to make mention of because all sin seperates man from God until he is washed in the blood of Jesus shed that day on the cross.

TheRealVille Wrote:They pick and choose which ones to follow. There are 613 of them.

There is no difference between the Old Testament and the New except that it (the new) centers around the life and ministry of the Lord. The major impact of which, is that once He gave up His life on the cross in sacrifice for all men, that started the age of grace. The time specifically dealt with in the New Testament when men by faith can accept Him as Lord and Savior. Plus the fact that after His ascention, the Holy Spirit returned in Jesus' place to indwell the hearts of the saved. This is what makes Christianity special and 'changes' the heart of those who accept Christ as Savior. The Law (Old Testament) still applies to all men, the exception is that the perfect sacrifice of the Lord on the cross 'exempts' the New Testament saints from the weight and penalty of the law which, demands punishment for all those who break God's law by sinning, which, of course, is everybody ever born other than the Son of God. In other words the 'good news' is that accepting God's gift of life through man's acceptance of His Son as Savior, frees the saved from the law and gives them eternal life (with God). No picking and choosing of which I am aware. When God Judges the lost or unsaved, He will use the Old Testament law books to judge by.

I'll try to provide some background Bible commentary for us today.

Jesus' crowds were in and around Jerusalem or they were people familiar with Jewish law, customs, and practices. Jewish people considered prostitution and homosexuality to be two of the most forbidden practices possible. They were appalled at the Greek and particularly the Romans when these practices would be such common place things.

In Levitical times, there was a need to speak of this and to have over 600 laws. God was telling them what was right and what wasn't. When Paul wrote to the Romans, there was a BIG need to address it.

Notice that Jesus tended to address the issues that came up before him. The only laws he tended to speak of were laws that were pertinent to the time and the people. Some laws were so generally accepted and understood that he didn't focus a lot of attention on them.

Some things he spoke about anyway, but remember how repulsive the act was to his general audience. In a joking way, it would be the equivalent of speaking about loving coal to a Eastern Kentucky coal miner. It was just so obvious, there was often no need. BUT when the need to speak of it arose, it had been and was addressed, strongly.

TheRealVille Wrote:They pick and choose which ones to follow. There are 613 of them.

Jesus and the apostles did abolish some of the rules. Many of the 613 deal with proper sacrifices, temple/worship conduct, care of the Ark and food practices. Many of those went away when gentiles were brought it, when animal sacrifices were no longer required and when Jesus changed the formation of the church.

LWC Wrote:Jesus and the apostles did abolish some of the rules. Many of the 613 deal with proper sacrifices, temple/worship conduct, care of the Ark and food practices. Many of those went away when gentiles were brought it, when animal sacrifices were no longer required and when Jesus changed the formation of the church.

Though I won't get into a religious bible debate with you, all of the mosaic law was abolished on the cross, except what was restated in the new testament. If you think you are under even one mosaic law that wasn't restated, your savior died in vain. It even says as much. Hebrews is a good place to start. That's as far as I'll go with this religious discussion.

TheRealVille Wrote:Though I won't get into a religious bible debate with you, all of the mosaic law was abolished on the cross, except what was restated in the new testament. If you think you are under even one mosaic law that wasn't restated, your savior died in vain. It even says as much. Hebrews is a good place to start. That's as far as I'll go with this religious discussion.

Matthew 5:18 (KJV)
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

TheRealThing Wrote:Paul's words on homosexuality----Romans 1:18-28 (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: [COLOR="magenta"]for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly,[/COLOR] and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

I know the original question was what were Jesus' words on the matter but, consider this fact; God's written Word is an extention of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, this fact is evident when one considers the following verses from the gospel of John---

John 1:1-14 (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word (Jesus) , and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him (Jesus) was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him (Jesus) was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light (Jesus), that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light (Jesus), but was sent to bear witness of that Light (Jesus).
9 That was the true Light (Jesus), which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He (Jesus) was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He (Jesus) came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word (Jesus) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The point is this, as stated, the bible is an extention of the person of Jesus Christ. Therefore, Jesus either said it (as is demonstrated by 'red letter' editions of the bible) where quotes of His words on earth are recorded or, He inspired men to write it in the text of the bible. Either way, He has sanctioned the contents of scripture, and EVERYTHING is valid and the complete truth. It my belief that the Lord didn't carve out any specific sins to make mention of because all sin seperates man from God until he is washed in the blood of Jesus shed that day on the cross.

Correct me if I'm wrong TRT. It's plain to see that homosexuality is a sin, just like any sin you and I may commit today.

A sin that some people think is worthy of condoning, like homosexuality, cannot be hidden from GOD.

Neither GOD, you nor me hate someone because they are gay, but we do dislike it very much when we are expected to accept it as being "okay". Especially when we're being labeled as "haters" for not condoning it.

Why can't the ones that condone homosexuality understand this position?

TheRealThing Wrote:Matthew 5:18 (KJV)
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Christians were never ever under Jewish law. That was even decided in a little meeting of the original apostles with Peter and later with Paul, and made plain. Do a little studying, instead of picking one verse out of context.


Here are a few verse that came later, after that little meeting.
Ephesians 2:14-15
Galatians 3:10-13
Galatians 3:23-25
Hebrews, the whole book.


One more time, bye. I'll let you people that live by that book debate it out. But never think I don't know a little bible myself. It was a study of mine at one time, long ago.

TheRealVille Wrote:Christians were never ever under Jewish law. That was even decided in a little meeting of the original apostles with Peter and later with Paul, and made plain. Do a little studying, instead of picking one verse out of context.


Here are a few verse that came later, after that little meeting.
Ephesians 2:14-15
Galatians 3:10-13
Galatians 3:23-25
Hebrews, the whole book.


One more time, bye. I'll let you people that live by that book debate it out. But never think I don't know a little bible myself. It was a study of mine at one time, long ago.

Gentiles were never under the Old Testament law. They are however subject to the penalty of sin which is written in the Old Testament. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". Gentiles who have accepted salvation are the "grafted branch" and have been set free of the law thanks to the unspeakable gift of Jesus on the cross. Jesus came to earth, born of a virgin, offering salvation to the Jew first and then after they rejected Him, salvation was offered to the gentile.
Romans 1:16 (KJV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

You cited Ephesians 2:14-15, here is the text of your source;
Romans 2:2-16 (KJV)
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, (see above same phrase in vs 12) do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

The verses you cite, 14 and 15, merely state that even though the gentiles (prior to the coming of Jesus' 33 years here on earth as a man) don't have copies of the bible laying around, the Jews didn't either BTW they relied on the priests, they are still subject to the law. God has impressed the truth on their hearts

Jesus didn't do away with law, He fulfilled the law in that His was the substitutionary death that the law demands.
Romans 6:23 (KJV)
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Like you, I have studied somewhat.

SKINNYPIG Wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong TRT. It's plain to see that homosexuality is a sin, just like any sin you and I may commit today.

A sin that some people think is worthy of condoning, like homosexuality, cannot be hidden from GOD.

Neither GOD, you nor me hate someone because they are gay, but we do dislike it very much when we are expected to accept it as being "okay". Especially when we're being labeled as "haters" for not condoning it.

Why can't the ones that condone homosexuality understand this position?

Agree, this is what I have been saying with regard to the left legislating us into submission when it comes to right and wrong. They'll never be able to cause us to denounce our faith but, they can use the courts to just go around us. In doing so they are they are writting Man's law and declaring it to be higher than God's law. God's law is clear and easy to understand, it isn't that they don't understand it because they do only too well. No, the truth is they hate God's law because they are outside of His grace. What I can't understand is how men can muster the courage to shake their fist in the Almighty's face, and openly defy Him in thought, word and deed.
Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Their argument is not with us, or me, it's with God. God has said He will turn those living a homosexual life style over to a reprobate mind. Meaning for them, at some point there will be no hope of salvation because their conscience will have been "seared with a hot iron". We are the messengers of the good and the bad news.

TheRealThing Wrote:Agree, this is what I have been saying with regard to the left legislating us into submission when it comes to right and wrong. They'll never be able to cause us to denounce our faith but, they can use the courts to just go around us. In doing so they are they are writting Man's law and declaring it to be higher than God's law. God's law is clear and easy to understand, it isn't that they don't understand it because they do only too well. No, the truth is they hate God's law because they are outside of His grace. What I can't understand is how men can muster the courage to shake their fist in the Almighty's face, and openly defy Him in thought, word and deed.
Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Their argument is not with us, or me, it's with God. God has said He will turn those living a homosexual life style over to a reprobate mind. Meaning for them, at some point there will be no hope of salvation because their conscience will have been "seared with a hot iron". We are the messengers of the good and the bad news.

It isn't about christians, it's about other Americans. American law will never make you be gay. It will however, let others be gay that want to, and enjoy the same privileges as you. God's law isn't American law.

I need to sue someone because homosexuality offends me. I wonder if the ACLU would support me.

TheRealVille Wrote:It isn't about christians, it's about other Americans. American law will never make you be gay. It will however, let others be gay that want to, and enjoy the same privileges as you. God's law isn't American law.

When will you get it through that head of yours that nobody on here is arguing that people don't have the right to be gay? The courts declaring homosexuality LEGAL, now that's an argument worth fighting out, because they're asking for the legalization of marriage between two (or more?) men, or women. Nobody needs to have "American law" backing them, to be gay. By "same privileges" you mean taxpayer dollars being funneled into same sex unions. Me, and many more like me, don't want our money going to make deviates more comfortable. LOL, you're saying sexual deviation is a minority group now.

^^
It might as well be...hey I think I'm going to try to find a minority that I can join. Perhaps I can retire then!!!

Granny Bear Wrote:^^
It might as well be...hey I think I'm going to try to find a minority that I can join. Perhaps I can retire then!!!

LOL, you're already in a minority being a taxpayer. Only problem is, once you join that minority you can never get out or stop paying taxes. :insane:

TheRealThing Wrote:When will you get it through that head of yours that nobody on here is arguing that people don't have the right to be gay? The courts declaring homosexuality LEGAL, now that's an argument worth fighting out, because they're asking for the legalization of marriage between two (or more?) men, or women. Nobody needs to have "American law" backing them, to be gay. By "same privileges" you mean taxpayer dollars being funneled into same sex unions. Me, and many more like me, don't want our money going to make deviates more comfortable. LOL, you're saying sexual deviation is a minority group now.

Are tax dollars funneled to you and your wife because you are married?

TheRealVille Wrote:Are tax dollars funneled to you and your wife because you are married?

Sure, tax breaks, dependent status, beneficiary status, being a dependent on health insurance to name just a few.

TheRealThing Wrote:Sure, tax breaks, dependent status, beneficiary status, being a dependent on health insurance to name just a few.

Are you better than other Americans because you are married to a woman, instead of a man, as far as "funneling" tax dollars go?

TheRealVille Wrote:Christians were never ever under Jewish law. That was even decided in a little meeting of the original apostles with Peter and later with Paul, and made plain. Do a little studying, instead of picking one verse out of context.


Here are a few verse that came later, after that little meeting.
Ephesians 2:14-15
Galatians 3:10-13
Galatians 3:23-25
Hebrews, the whole book.


One more time, bye. I'll let you people that live by that book debate it out. But never think I don't know a little bible myself. It was a study of mine at one time, long ago.

...

TheRealVille Wrote:It isn't about christians, it's about other Americans. American law will never make you be gay. It will however, let others be gay that want to, and enjoy the same privileges as you. God's law isn't American law.

TheRealVille Wrote:Are tax dollars funneled to you and your wife because you are married?

TheRealVille Wrote:Are you better than other Americans because you are married to a woman, instead of a man, as far as "funneling" tax dollars go?

:pondering:

RunItUpTheGut Wrote:...







:pondering:

Bye on the bible end of it. I could care less if his bible says it's wrong, it's a fairy tale book. I'm not debating bible with him, I'm debating American law. I have no use debating the bible stuff, I don't believe any of it.

TheRealVille Wrote:Are you better than other Americans because you are married to a woman, instead of a man, as far as "funneling" tax dollars go?

For crying out loud RV. You know as well as I do that same sex marriages are unnatural. Before it's over you'll have people wanting to marry their pets, in all likelihood. When that happens you going to advocate for beastiallity too? But to answer your question directly, no.

I'm not better than the 39 members of Heaven's Gate who committed suicide to get picked up by a UFO either. But, I'd like to think I'm a little better grounded.

TheRealThing Wrote:For crying out loud RV. You know as well as I do that same sex marriages are unnatural. Before it's over you'll have people wanting to marry their pets, in all likelihood. When that happens you going to advocate for beastiallity too? But to answer your question directly, no.

I'm not better than the 39 members of Heaven's Gate who committed suicide to get picked up by a UFO either. But, I'd like to think I'm a little better grounded.

Everyone in this country should be able to love anyone of their choice. I think that sheep should have the same rights as everyone one else myself.