I got this from another site.
Should KHSAA go back to the old 4 Class System, with 5A being for Private Schools only?
1A - Small Schools (Jenkins, Leslie County, Knott County, Estill County, Bell County, Wayne County, Paris, Bourbon County, Garrard County, Morgan County, Magoffin County, Casey County, Fleming County, East & West Carter, Harlan, Heath, Emience, Paintsville, Dayton, Bath County, Berea, Madison Souther, Kentucky Country Day, Gallatin County, Glasgow, Hazard, Breathitt County, etc. etc. etc.)
2A - Medium Size Schools (Somerset, Perry County Central, Central, Bellevue, Newport, Dixie Heights, Paducah Tilghman, Mayfield, Ohio County, Union County, Apollo, Belfry, East Jessamine, West Jessamine, George Rogers Clark, Russell, Fern Creek, Letcher County Central, Meade County, etc. etc. etc.)
3A & 4A - Would be Powerhouse schools (Highlands, John Hardin, Bowling Green, Rockcastle County, Harlan County, Boyle County, Danville, Ashland, etc. etc. etc.)
5A - Would be Private Schools only! (They could play other teams throughout the State until District and playoffs started)
what say you?
I think the KHSAA won't make any changes to the 6 class system, because they'll make more money having 6 championship games at a venue that costs less to rent than anything in louisville.
personally, i think they should go to 3 classes by merging 1A with 2A, 3A with 4A, and 5A with 6A
Strikeout King Wrote:I got this from another site.
Should KHSAA go back to the old 4 Class System, with 5A being for Private Schools only?
1A - Small Schools (Jenkins, Leslie County, Knott County, Estill County, Bell County, Wayne County, Paris, Bourbon County, Garrard County, Morgan County, Magoffin County, Casey County, Fleming County, East & West Carter, Harlan, Heath, Emience, Paintsville, Dayton, Bath County, Berea, Madison Souther, Kentucky Country Day, Gallatin County, Glasgow, Hazard, Breathitt County, etc. etc. etc.)
2A - Medium Size Schools (Somerset, Perry County Central, Central, Bellevue, Newport, Dixie Heights, Paducah Tilghman, Mayfield, Ohio County, Union County, Apollo, Belfry, East Jessamine, West Jessamine, George Rogers Clark, Russell, Fern Creek, Letcher County Central, Meade County, etc. etc. etc.)
3A & 4A - Would be Powerhouse schools (Highlands, John Hardin, Bowling Green, Rockcastle County, Harlan County, Boyle County, Danville, Ashland, etc. etc. etc.)
5A - Would be Private Schools only! (They could play other teams throughout the State until District and playoffs started)
what say you?
I personally wouldn't mind this too much.. It would be intresting thats for sure lol
I think its fine the way it is.
Private schools still get the right to play in public classes.
Public schools are more equally seperated making for better playoffs, especially state championship games.
i don't like the way KHSAA got it right now. because a team can go 0-10 and still make the playoffs. that take away from football. all the babe wouldn't stop crying because they never make the playoffs, so KHSAA change it to 6 classes. so some of the teams that never made the playoffs can.
^
I can agree with that.
However instead of changing it, why not put only the top two teams from each district in the playoffs?
The four team district were still around when it was four classes.
I remember many year where Whitley was in a 7 team district while Corbin had 4 teams in there 2A district.
As mentioned earlier, they need to go back to 4 or 5 classes, or cut playoff teams down to two per district. You have teams in the playoffs now, that haven't won games all season or ever had a winning record in school history.
cj2561 Wrote:i don't like the way KHSAA got it right now. because a team can go 0-10 and still make the playoffs. that take away from football. all the babe wouldn't stop crying because they never make the playoffs, so KHSAA change it to 6 classes. so some of the teams that never made the playoffs can.
This is more embassaring than anything else. Not everyone should make the playoffs from those 4 team districts.
Make teams earn their way into the playoffs either by winning a district game or only taking the top three from a district and give the district champion a 1st round bye
Strikeout King Wrote:I got this from another site.
Should KHSAA go back to the old 4 Class System, with 5A being for Private Schools only?
5A - Would be Private Schools only! (They could play other teams throughout the State until District and playoffs started)
what say you?
So you would make a 12 team state-wide 'Class' that includes schools that are currently 6A to 1A in size?
cj2561 Wrote:i don't like the way KHSAA got it right now. because a team can go 0-10 and still make the playoffs. that take away from football. all the babe wouldn't stop crying because they never make the playoffs, so KHSAA change it to 6 classes. so some of the teams that never made the playoffs can.
Everyone gets to the postseason in basketball.
I don't have a problem with it.
And if you go 0-10 you'll have to play a top seed and either pull some magic or go home early.
I prefer the 6 class system. I believe the class system has done a relatively good job of keeping the competition levels consistent and fair. I also prefer the additional two paydays that goes to all schools. Putting all schools into the playoffs just like every other sport in the state is the only fair system. There are teams with losing records or even winless records in Soccer, Baseball, Basketball, Volleyball, Bowling, Cheerleading Competition, Diving, Band Competiton, and every other competition that is out there, yet the only sport that anyone seems to think that there is a problem for teams to compete in playoff play is football. Let them all play. It's a payday for the losing schools, and god knows those schools with losing records need the payday a heck of a lot more than those with winning records.
As for Private/Public debate, that has been beaten to death. From the looks of things, ONE school is a lock to win the state tournament that is a private school, and that is Trinity. Others are competing, but not locks to win the title. I was once an athlete, and now a coach. I want to play the BEST! I say that with reasonableness built into my answer. If I am Hazard, Mayfield or Beechwood, it probably does not make sense to play Trinity for a state championship, but it's equitable to compete with Lexington Christian. The private schools have many more advantages of public schools, but they also have the financial burden and the loft expectations that that do not necessarily equal the public schools.
For me, the system is fine the way it is and matches what more states are doing than not.
Another thing that I don't like about the 6 classes and 4 team districts is travel!!!! In the first round of the playoffs I bet about 50% of the games will be blow outs. And several of those teams will travel 2-3 hours to get beat 50+ points. If we stay with 2 classes we need to only take the top 2 teams from each district, or go back to the 4 classes system where districts have 7 teams.
I've never understood why football teams have to "earn" a spot in the playoffs according to some fans, but I've never read any posts saying that it's wrong that basketball, baseball, volleyball, etc. teams don't have to earn that same playoff spot.
I've also read some folks saying that the current system makes the regular season games in football meaningless. I'm sorry but I find that thinking illogical. If I'm a player or coach, every game that I play or coach in is meaningful regardless of the fact it may not have any impact on the playoffs. Furthermore, district games under the current system are extremely meaningful to the playoffs, unless one does not think having the first two, and possibly third, playoff games at home is important.
When you think about it, if we went back to 4 classes we'd probably only be adding a couple of really good teams to each class, which might lead to one tougher playoff game for the eventual state champion. I sincerely doubt that it would make competition all that tougher. If we took only the top two teams from each district, we could eliminate one round of the playoffs. That would provide the benefit of either 1. starting the season one week later; or 2. playing the championship games one week earlier. Personally, I like watching as many high school football games as I can. I also think playing as many games and getting as many weeks of practice as possible is good for the development of the sport. I understand the heat avoidance benefit of starting a week later but I think the heat issue is currently managed well. I also understand the benefit to basketball of ending the football season a week earlier. But I enjoy football more than basketball, so that is not a good reason in my opinion to have the football season shortened a week.
I know there are some huge blowouts in week one and that bothers some people. I guess if I didn't want to see a blowout, I'd just stay home. But I don't mind watching them as I enjoy watching the younger kids play and often times am not able to watch the JVs play on Saturdays during the regular season.
Here is the question for a 6 class system. Is it giving more schools a chance to win a State Title?
1A - No - Beechwood / Mayfield
2A- is wide open
3A- No - Central
4A - No - Highlands /Boyle/ Lex. Cath
5A - wide open
6A- No - Trinity / St X
IMO only two classes it opens the doors for more to win a title.
Strikeout King Wrote:I got this from another site.
Should KHSAA go back to the old 4 Class System, with 5A being for Private Schools only?
1A - Small Schools (Jenkins, Leslie County, Knott County, Estill County, Bell County, Wayne County, Paris, Bourbon County, Garrard County, Morgan County, Magoffin County, Casey County, Fleming County, East & West Carter, Harlan, Heath, Emience, Paintsville, Dayton, Bath County, Berea, Madison Souther, Kentucky Country Day, Gallatin County, Glasgow, Hazard, Breathitt County, etc. etc. etc.)
2A - Medium Size Schools (Somerset, Perry County Central, Central, Bellevue, Newport, Dixie Heights, Paducah Tilghman, Mayfield, Ohio County, Union County, Apollo, Belfry, East Jessamine, West Jessamine, George Rogers Clark, Russell, Fern Creek, Letcher County Central, Meade County, etc. etc. etc.)
3A & 4A - Would be Powerhouse schools (Highlands, John Hardin, Bowling Green, Rockcastle County, Harlan County, Boyle County, Danville, Ashland, etc. etc. etc.)
5A - Would be Private Schools only! (They could play other teams throughout the State until District and playoffs started)
what say you?
Since when is Bell County a small 1A school and Letcher a medium school with Clark Co., then youi have Danville playing in one of the biggest when they are a small school.
That whole thing looks like crap because there is no ryhme or reason for some of the schools to be placed where you have them, even a 5A Madison County team is in the small 1A bracket. Makes no sense.
How about keeping the same 6 classes, taking the top two teams from each district, but add a 11th game to the schedual?
So everyone plays 11 games (for those interested in the money aspect of it), It should avoid some of the first round playoff blowouts only having the top two teams play
Gummie Bear Wrote:Since when is Bell County a small 1A school and Letcher a medium school with Clark Co., then youi have Danville playing in one of the biggest when they are a small school.
That whole thing looks like crap because there is no ryhme or reason for some of the schools to be placed where you have them, even a 5A Madison County team is in the small 1A bracket. Makes no sense.
I went by the school enrollments per KHSAA. for the small schools I went up to 800 students per school, I went up over 1,000 for the medium sized schools and for 3A & 4A put all the powerhouses like I had mentioned in those classes. I guess you could put Madison Southern in at 2A.
What about this:
Take a team that's in a district of 6 and put that team in a district that has 4 teams making that district have 5 teams.
Strikeout King Wrote:I got this from another site.
Should KHSAA go back to the old 4 Class System, with 5A being for Private Schools only?
1A - Small Schools (Jenkins, Leslie County, Knott County, Estill County, Bell County, Wayne County, Paris, Bourbon County, Garrard County, Morgan County, Magoffin County, Casey County, Fleming County, East & West Carter, Harlan, Heath, Emience, Paintsville, Dayton, Bath County, Berea, Madison Souther, Kentucky Country Day, Gallatin County, Glasgow, Hazard, Breathitt County, etc. etc. etc.)
2A - Medium Size Schools (Somerset, Perry County Central, Central, Bellevue, Newport, Dixie Heights, Paducah Tilghman, Mayfield, Ohio County, Union County, Apollo, Belfry, East Jessamine, West Jessamine, George Rogers Clark, Russell, Fern Creek, Letcher County Central, Meade County, etc. etc. etc.)
3A & 4A - Would be Powerhouse schools (Highlands, John Hardin, Bowling Green, Rockcastle County, Harlan County, Boyle County, Danville, Ashland, etc. etc. etc.)
5A - Would be Private Schools only! (They could play other teams throughout the State until District and playoffs started)
what say you?
No disrespect, but this doesnt make any sense at all. 1A would have schools like Breathitt County, Bell and other current 3A Mountain area schools while 2A schools would be Mayfield (currently 1A) and Meade County (6A)?
However, I saw on another message board where somebody even mentioned the idea of 3 Classes, which I like. Ideally, though, I would like to see 5 classes, with 1A and 5A having the 32 smallest/biggest enrollment schools.
Essentially, you would have the same set up in those classes as we have in 1A and 6A now, but 2A, 3A and 4A would have 10 or so more teams each than they do right now. Having 10 or more teams in each class would make for almost every district having 5-7 teams in each district, potentially. Thus creating the regular season dog fights we were all used to with the 4 class system, yet also giving the little guys in the state a fighting chance in 1A and putting the super big boys with who they need to be with as well.
The only thing I would change about it is make it 5 classes instead of 6 and rework the playoffs/district scheduling. I read one time that some of these teams may have to travel 4 and 5 hours for a game, really?
Someone previously mentioned that KHSAA makes a whole lot more money with 6 classes and everyone making the playoffs. I do not see the format going away.
How many teams are in 1A and 6A? 32? Really? I would try to even out the classes just a little more:
Move some of the teams around to have 5 classes OR to have more even districts.
Currently these are the numbers of teams in each class:
32-1A
34-2A
41-3A
38-4A
40-5A
32-6A
Look at the difference between 2A-3A and 5A-6A. If 1A and 6A stay with 32, then to completely even out the 4 remaining classes you would need a shade over 38 per class. The way to do that is to look at the "border-schools", (i.e. schools that are barely in their classification by size) Take 4 3A schools and make them 2A. Those schools would be:
Heath, West Carter, Jackson County and Trigg County.
Knowing a map a little those schools are very far apart, so you could essentially add each of them to a different 2A district.
That gives 2A 38 teams and 3A now has 37. 4A has 38 teams and would only need to give one team to 3A to give 3A 38 teams. I know this is HIGHLY controversial but the smallest 4A school is terms of size is Highlands. So they would move to 3A.
Now 1A, 2A and 3A are all set. Now 1 team from 5A would need to move down. Here is a strange case. 5A would be left with 39 teams if only 1 moved. So the argument could be for two, but there is not an even number of teams so someone would be left with 39. The statistics between the two smallest 5A schools is actually .5 male students over 2 years. Realistically the case could be made to move Shelby County or Perry County Central down. Perry County Central's district is a perfect logistical fit for them, and Collins is a 4A team, so both Shelby County schools would want that add to happen for logistical and scheduling reasons.
Now with the classes a little more even, this is what it looks like:
32-1A
38-2A
38-3A
38-4A
39-5A
32-6A
Now with 8 districts in each class, that means there should be 4.75 teams in each district. So the easiest way is to have 6 districts with 5 teams and two districts with 4 teams, for the 2A-5A classes. 1A and 6A have the perfect numbers for 8 4-team districts. My proposal needs more work, obviously, and more needs to be looked at for logistics, etc... but that VERY simple work eliminated ANY need for a 6-team district.
Here are the drawbacks and anomalies of the current setup:
1. Only a small subset of overall teams do not make the playoffs.
2. #1 is nullified for classes 1A and 6A - guaranteeing all schools regardless of record do make the playoffs and ensuring an extra week of football participation for those in those classes. So the playoff participation of these classes is 100%.
3. Classes 2A, 3A, 4A and 5A now have districts comprised of 4, 5 or 6 teams. This guarantees that some schools will not make the playoffs. In districts where there are 6 teams 2 teams will not make the playoffs. So again arbitrary selection makes the odds of making the playoff participation chances 100, 80 or 66% depending on your district makeup. At least under the old 6A system there were no more than 5 teams in a district.
4. Due to #2 and #3 the length of season varies far more for 'in-between schools' than those that are very large or very small. Again, arbitrary and subjective vs. objective approach. Thus, a school that is 5th in their 6 team district may have a decent record of 5-5 but will not go to the playoffs while a school that is 0-10 may go to the playoffs.
5. With varying districts sizes the standing schedules of schools varies from 3 to 5 games requiring varing effort on coaches part to fill out the schedules. Some schools need to fill in 7 games - others only 5.
6. 6A always get special treatment because 'you-know-whos'. The arbitrary rotation and now the super district. Clearly arbitrary mechanics are involved.
7. The current playoff format does not create levels of recognizable reward below the State Championship level. It is simply 5 weeks of ''survivor style' playoffs with 6 winners and 220 losers at the end. No one celebrates a district championship anymore, Regional championships are not really celebrated at all.
8. 6 classes has created more State-wide winners and provided some more recognition for some schools that may not have gotten it since the focus is almost solely on the State finals. But it has reduced lower level competition in the playoffs and reduce the interest in the playoffs until championship weekend. Since going to 6A look at new class of perennial champions (Trinity, Highlands, Fort Campbell all won 3 out of 4 years after going to 6 classes, Newport Catholic was in the finals 3 out of 4 years). The point is that the road to the finals is fairly predictable and the same teams - who are all typically deep tradition football programs - are in the finals. Thus, it is somewhat a lower level of excitement and possibly interest in general.
Recommended fix:
1. Go to 4 classes with flat regions made of mostly 7 teams. A few may 5 or so will have 8 teams. Based on size and location as today.
2. Play round robin in region during season. Thus 6 or 7 games for each school are pre-determined.
3. Maybe give the top regular season regional champion a bye (7 team regions) or a forced seed with the #8 seed (8 team regions). Blind draw the rest at the end of the season to mix things up during the 'Regional Championships'.
4. The above format ensure all teams make the playoffs giving all student-athelete the same level of PARTICIPATION during the season.
5. Regional Champions then go onto State Tournament in classic 8 team brackets. This can be completely blind draw.
6. Drawback - 6 weeks of playoffs. So drop off week or optional 2 week startup period.
7. Yes, this is the Indiana-style system. Go look it up if you want to see it in action.
The arbitrary gerrymandering that has been done to get the current system is silly. We all know it is done to try to address the powerhouses in 6A and it leaves a small percentage of schools out of the post season where 0-10 teams can make it in but 5-5 teams may not. Sound fair? Hardly. The fact of football life in Kentucky is that if you are in the highest class you eventually have to face of the 'green monsters' to get a ring. Its been that way since 1959. Same with what ever class has Highlands - they are never down and you will have do go through them. Same with the other traditional powers like Beechwood, Mayfield, NCC. Lets quit trying fix the unfixable and improve the participation of all schools and quit trying to figure out how to create a system that trying to hamstring or contain certain, specific, arbitrary schools.
Contest - name the number of times 'arbitrary' is used above. It is the only consistent word that applies to the current system.
toussaints Wrote:I think the KHSAA won't make any changes to the 6 class system, because they'll make more money having 6 championship games at a venue that costs less to rent than anything in louisville.
personally, i think they should go to 3 classes by merging 1A with 2A, 3A with 4A, and 5A with 6A
I like the 3 class Idea. 1A would have Somerset, Beechwood, NCC, Hazard and Mayfield who could all compete for a state tittle this year. 2A Would have Highlands, Central, Belfry, Bell, and Breathitt. 3A would have a few teams that could ake a shot at Trinity like BG and North Hardin as well as Harlan Co. I think this would be the best thing for High School Football in Kentucky. IMO. I would like it anyway.
BluegrassCard,
http://www.khsaa.org/football/2011/district.html
2-A, D-2 has 6
2-A, D-4 has 6
3-A, D-5 has 6
3-A, D-6 has 6
5-A, D-6 has 6
5-A, D-7 has 6
FWIW, Woodford is the only team that can finish with a winning record and NOT make the playoffs (and Woodford lost a playoff spot to a district rival with a losing record, so I'm not shedding a tear for the Jackets). Far more teams that missed the playoffs have 0, 1 or 2 wins (usually against horrible teams smaller in class). No tears for them either.
I'd rather miss the playoffs than have to go on the road 2+ hours and getting running clocked by a team my fans don't care about and don't follow. And the home team in that game isn't making much money either, because they know it will be over by halftime.
i am not a fan of the pure "enrollment" determines class concept. i think while it is a start, i think teams should be able to choose or even be forced to play up or down in class based on performance.
for instance if a team is 5A but has a severe losing record (under .250 winning percentage for 4 years) they drop to class 4A. where as a 4A school who has been dominating (over a .850 winning percentage for 4 years or 2 consecutive class state championships) should have to play in 5A.
johnnyt Wrote:i am not a fan of the pure "enrollment" determines class concept. i think while it is a start, i think teams should be able to choose or even be forced to play up or down in class based on performance.
for instance if a team is 5A but has a severe losing record (under .250 winning percentage for 4 years) they drop to class 4A. where as a 4A school who has been dominating (over a .850 winning percentage for 4 years or 2 consecutive class state championships) should have to play in 5A.
My only draw-back to that format is a team like Allen County-Scottsville. They were the the 4A State title game last year and have been good for a few years. However, they graduated 20 seniors, I believe. Now they have won 3 games.
Not everyone is a perennial power year in and year out. I would venture to guess that 20 teams in the state have had at least a 20 year run of winning 75% of their games or more.
cksportsfan Wrote:BluegrassCard,
http://www.khsaa.org/football/2011/district.html
2-A, D-2 has 6
2-A, D-4 has 6
3-A, D-5 has 6
3-A, D-6 has 6
5-A, D-6 has 6
5-A, D-7 has 6
FWIW, Woodford is the only team that can finish with a winning record and NOT make the playoffs (and Woodford lost a playoff spot to a district rival with a losing record, so I'm not shedding a tear for the Jackets). Far more teams that missed the playoffs have 0, 1 or 2 wins (usually against horrible teams smaller in class). No tears for them either.
I'd rather miss the playoffs than have to go on the road 2+ hours and getting running clocked by a team my fans don't care about and don't follow. And the home team in that game isn't making much money either, because they know it will be over by halftime.
Good link.
So Woodford, who maybe 6-4 (they will at least be 5-5), will definitely miss the playoffs while 4 other teams who will at best be 1-9 and maybe 0-10 will make the playoffs.
Maybe the Woodford coach would agree with that is best to just end the season. But with only 13 seniors I bet he would like an extra week of practice and playoff experience for his underclassmen who return next year. And the 13 seniors who had winning a season would probably like at least one more game before ending their high school careers.
The fact that a small sliver of schools do not engage in playoffs is poor statement of this system. The fact that a school with a winning record fails to make the playoffs while teams that will likely be 0-10 do makes the point in spades.
If the playoff herd is to be thinned let it be thinned at a broader level. Just take the 2 top district teams and cut a week or 2 off the current playoff format. But lets not justify a broken and mostly arbitrary system.
Leave it the way it is with 6 classes but take only the top 2 teams from each class for the play off's. 3rd & 4th place teams go on the road now and don't take enough fans to fill one row of the bleachers in many cases.
Pigskinman53 Wrote:Another thing that I don't like about the 6 classes and 4 team districts is travel!!!! In the first round of the playoffs I bet about 50% of the games will be blow outs. And several of those teams will travel 2-3 hours to get beat 50+ points. If we stay with 2 classes we need to only take the top 2 teams from each district, or go back to the 4 classes system where districts have 7 teams.
Those traveling teams, are reimbursed for their travel expenses from the state.
Down with the class system, rise proletariat!
My crazy idea:
Division I
1A
2A
3A
4A
Sizes would be based on the previous system, as would the playoffs.
Division II:- One Class.
- 32 Teams.
- The final four playoff teams from the 6A system the previous year qualify.
- The next 8 highest ranked teams qualify. (not sure how to determine this)
- Each district has 4 teams
- Must play each team in the district.
- Must play one other DII team.
- The state champions from District I would be invited to DII.
- The four lowest ranked DII schools are at risk of dropping to DI if any schools accept the invite to move up to DII.
I'm crazy.
So all that propose to change the Football playoffs, should the state do that for all other sports? You would have to, thus if that were to be changed every sport would go to the top 2 teams from each District advancing to a playoff.