John Cena has had the belt 3 different times in the past 5 months. When will WWE learn that we don't like having crappy wrestlers pushed down our throat. If they don't do something interesting with the Punk/Trips storyline i'm through with Rasslin'
^ So let me ask you this question - If you were running a Wrestling company and you were told that this company MUST make money, not just break even but bring a major profit to that company - who would be the guy you would start your business with. You have the opportunity to take any active - key point here is active - wrestler to build around - Who's it going to be?
Will it be somebody that you like - or will it be somebody who MAKE CASH hand-over-fist?
You don't want Cena pushed down your throat, but being that his merchandise has out-sold any professional wrestler in history and is by far the biggest draw in the business - what do you suggest? I love, absolutely love the Punk character. It is awesome and is as cutting edge as what we saw during the Invasion angle in WCW. BUT - what have we gotten during the Punk run? PPV buy rates were at the lowest point in WWE history when Punk was champ. During this run, Monday night ratings have declined ever since his Monday night Shoot/Work rant back in the summer. So, Internet fans who love Punk does not relate into business. Sorry, Cena = Money. If you owned a company and did not put the best product that your company sells on the marquee, then you would be out of business pretty soon!
Hopefully, they keep the belt on Cena through Wrestlemania, which seems impossible in the age of bi-weekly title changes. It would go a long way to having him go into Wrestlemania against the Rock on a huge roll, though.
^ I agree, but that match does not need a title on the line
Stardust Wrote:^ I agree, but that match does not need a title on the line
Dusty, what do you know about wrestling?????????????:biggrin:
Westside Wrote:Dusty, what do you know about wrestling?????????????:biggrin:
Westy, Dusty has forgotten more about wrestling than you even know about Marshall football. :1:
Stardust Wrote:^ I agree, but that match does not need a title on the line
Typically, I would think that it wouldn't either. My feeling on this particular Wrestlemania is that Rock vs. Cena and UT vs. HHH(if that happens) are going to overshadow anything else including a title match. To me, that would de-value the title. Of course, the title has been de-valued so much in the past decade and half that, I guess, it really doesn't matter.
worker1 Wrote:Typically, I would think that it wouldn't either. My feeling on this particular Wrestlemania is that Rock vs. Cena and UT vs. HHH(if that happens) are going to overshadow anything else including a title match. To me, that would de-value the title. Of course, the title has been de-valued so much in the past decade and half that, I guess, it really doesn't matter.
You hit on a real pet-peeve of mine and that is the title's importance. Though it's very indicative of today's mainstream sports, the value of the team and title have been less of the marketing strategy than the athlete. Beginning with Michael Jordan's era, the plan is now to center sports around the money-making individual and no longer about the quest of a team for the title. We fell in love with Michael Jordan, not the Bulls. Same can be said of Lebron James. There was no love of the Cleveland Cavaliers before LBJ. Once he left, so did his fan base as they followed him to Miami. So, the Cavalier shirts turned into Heat shirts as the marketing of the individual moved.
What I am driving at is that the WWE is so focussed on the individual performer to carry the organization. There is no sense of building around the title and the importance of being the WORLD Champion. If we remember back to the territory days, we can all remember about how special it was to have the "World Champion" come into town. When Ric Flair was world champion and he would travel to St. Louis, the whole month before the buzz was about the upcoming match-up of their regional champion getting a match against the World Champ; in Texas, the opportunity for one of the Von Erich's to win the title just sent that territory into a craze. It was all about the title and didn't really matter if it was Flair, Race, Dusty or whomever had the world strap.
The WWE's short sighted thinking pushes Cena (rightfully so) as the most important commodity of the company. They only put the title on him because it seems like the title should go on the top guy, but not because the title is really of importance. I'm not sure that it will ever change, but the world title really means nothing anymore.
Thus, for me, don't waste the world title on the Cena/Rock match-up. Cena and Rock is the draw. It's the Main Event. Nobody, and I truly mean nobody believes that the Rock will walk away as the World Champion. He will never be a full time wrestler, thus there is no need in putting the title on him only to have him drop it the next night on Raw. So, if you want to make people believe that the Rock could actually win against the bionic man Cena, you don't add the title.
To your point, nothing is going to top that match or the Undertaker match, but you can still get value out of the World Title matches by getting them over at Wrestlemania. On Monday, the Rock and Undertaker will no longer be on regular television, so their Wrestlemania matches are only novelties with no storyline future. But for the title-holders, they begin their run on the Monday night after WM and it will not matter whether they were overshadowed the previous day, they will be the focus going forward.
Thoughts? Rebuttal?
Stardust Wrote:You hit on a real pet-peeve of mine and that is the title's importance. Though it's very indicative of today's mainstream sports, the value of the team and title have been less of the marketing strategy than the athlete. Beginning with Michael Jordan's era, the plan is now to center sports around the money-making individual and no longer about the quest of a team for the title. We fell in love with Michael Jordan, not the Bulls. Same can be said of Lebron James. There was no love of the Cleveland Cavaliers before LBJ. Once he left, so did his fan base as they followed him to Miami. So, the Cavalier shirts turned into Heat shirts as the marketing of the individual moved.
What I am driving at is that the WWE is so focussed on the individual performer to carry the organization. There is no sense of building around the title and the importance of being the WORLD Champion. If we remember back to the territory days, we can all remember about how special it was to have the "World Champion" come into town. When Ric Flair was world champion and he would travel to St. Louis, the whole month before the buzz was about the upcoming match-up of their regional champion getting a match against the World Champ; in Texas, the opportunity for one of the Von Erich's to win the title just sent that territory into a craze. It was all about the title and didn't really matter if it was Flair, Race, Dusty or whomever had the world strap.
The WWE's short sighted thinking pushes Cena (rightfully so) as the most important commodity of the company. They only put the title on him because it seems like the title should go on the top guy, but not because the title is really of importance. I'm not sure that it will ever change, but the world title really means nothing anymore.
Thus, for me, don't waste the world title on the Cena/Rock match-up. Cena and Rock is the draw. It's the Main Event. Nobody, and I truly mean nobody believes that the Rock will walk away as the World Champion. He will never be a full time wrestler, thus there is no need in putting the title on him only to have him drop it the next night on Raw. So, if you want to make people believe that the Rock could actually win against the bionic man Cena, you don't add the title.
To your point, nothing is going to top that match or the Undertaker match, but you can still get value out of the World Title matches by getting them over at Wrestlemania. On Monday, the Rock and Undertaker will no longer be on regular television, so their Wrestlemania matches are only novelties with no storyline future. But for the title-holders, they begin their run on the Monday night after WM and it will not matter whether they were overshadowed the previous day, they will be the focus going forward.
Thoughts? Rebuttal?
You have really good insight into the industry and make some really good points. In response to what you have said, it's really hard to argue because I think you and I both long for what wrestling used to be and not the current "sports entertainment" bastardization of the sport and I think we both realize those days are dead. I think you are just adapting better than I am. lol
I think that putting Cena against Rock with the belt on the line could bring value to the title because of the magnitude of the match. I know it sounds ironic that a match could bring value to a title instead of the other way around. I know that no one expects Rock to win, but if that is the train of thought why even have the match? Nobody can get an angle or idea across like the Rock and I think he could make it believable that he could win the belt. Just the notion that Rock could win the title and be around to defend it would only add to the match even more. He could even mention the fact that he would only have to defend the belt every 30 days, which would allow him time to defend the belt and pursue his other interests. Now people may not believe that possible(and rightfully so), but it is pro wrestling and anything is possible and with the right execution, I think it could get over and the Rock is just the guy. On the flip side, when Cena beats him, not only will he have beaten the Rock at Wrestlemania, he will have successfully defended the title against the Rock at WM. Very few champions have retained at WM in recent years and that would only add to the resume of Cena and add value to the belt. Besides all of that, I am an old school guy, and I think you are too, and I think the top guy should have the belt on the biggest show of the year. Right or wrong, that is just my philosophy.
In terms of the rest of the card, I just think two main events of that caliber and two heavyweight championship matches is overkill. I would much rather see Cena w/ title vs. the Rock, UT vs. HHH and a World Title match(I don't even know which championship is which, lol) featuring two of the tope tier guys such as Punk and Orton would be fantastic. With Taker, HHH, Cena and Rock all in matches at WM, having Punk and Orton face anyone other than each other does nothing to advance either of them. Put the other world title back on Orton and have Punk win money in the bank or vice versa to set the match up. That is 3 fantastic main events, right there. That would, almost, make it worth the $1500 or whatever McMahon is going to charge for the PPV.
A fourth title match would not be necessary as there are no established talent to put in that match. No disrespect to Del Rio or Mark Henry, but does anyone really want to see them in a title match at WM? The only other top tier guy left would be Rey, Jr and will he be healthy then? Putting any of those guys in a title match at WM would not bring anything to the table because everyone knows that they are not the top guys. Let them get over with their matches and then begin to elevate them the following night and months after WM. There is enough undercard talent there with more than enough ability to "steal the show" with that ability instead of putting them in title matches when everyone knows that they are not top level guys. I just don't see the point in putting a belt on a guy like Del Rio or Henry when there are going to be, at least, 6 other guys on the card that are above them. I realize that 3 of those guys are just novelty match guys, at this point, but they are there nonetheless. After WM, you have whole year to build new talent, which they have done a piss poor job of, at this point. Otherwise, there wouldn't be two guys well past the age of 40 and another guy that has been retired for years that would have to wrestle on your biggest show of the year, just to make it interesting.
In the end , though, you are correct. They will go with 2 mains and 2 title matches with one of the title matches serving as the opening match. Plus, there will be some sort of gimmick match with some sort of pop culture nitwit. Maybe, they can book Ronnie vs. Situation in a Jersey Shore death match. Winner gets the loser's HGH stash or maybe Snooki vs. Chaz Bono in a jello wrestling match. It doesn't really matter. Whatever Vince goes with, people will buy it and he will continue to make money (although, not as much as he could or should) and real wrestling fans will continue to watch in hopes that "sports entertainment" dies a quick and painful death.
^ Now that is one helluva post! You are dead-on with all of your points. I like the booking and even though our points are slightly different, we both feel like we can get to the end-point similarly!
I really think you are dead on with what Cena win does for his legacy. Though I think he still gets that tick mark just with the win over the Rock, it does add even more with it being a title defense.
I'm not a fan of seeing another HHH/Undertaker WM match. Undertaker is going for 20-0, and I just don't think there is anyone that will believe he would not get win #20 with the exception of one person!!!! That person will already be in the Main Event, and that is Cena. I truly believe that Cena could be the only guy that most fans would truly believe could win. Imagine what that would do to Cena's legacy as well. That said, it's not going to happen. So, for me I'm not paying the $1,500 (lol) to see a HHH match-up. I'll get the PPV to see the historic Rock/Cena match because it intrigues me, but the HHH match does nothing for me. I truly believe you could get as much out of a Mark Henry/UT match-up, especially if it is only fodder for UT to retire at 20-0. I know that Mick Foley will be back by the beginning of the year, and I guess to could relive that epic, but how could they possibly relive what they did in Hell in the Cell.
Punk, if not in a 3-way match for a title would be the odds on favorite to be in and win a 3rd MIB match.
Somehow Daniel Bryan has to fit in here somewhere. Since his MIB win and his announcement that he will go for the title at WM, it's only logical that he is either facing or sitting at ringside for the Smackdown World Championship.
What I miss about the glory days of wrestling, the biggest of events always created a new star or turns a star into an Icon. I'm just not convinced that this regime can do that anymore.
But, this is at least fun to talk about. This could be a discussion about TNA - or not!
what is up with the Truth/Miz firing? Is that just part of the show or is that for real?
I agree about Bryan. I had forgotten about his MIB win. I probably should do a better job of keeping up with what is going on. He is one of a handful of guys that the WWE really need to get behind. I like him, Ziggler, Morrison and Miz as the next tier of guys behind Orton/Cena/Misterio/ and now, Punk. Guys like Mark Henry are perfect for exactly what you said. Del Rio is in the same boat, to me. I know some people are high on him, but I just don't see it.
HHH/UT is good from the standpoint that HHH is believable as someone that could beat him. Of course, it looks to me and I think everyone that Cena will be the man that ends Taker's WM run. Of course, it isn't out of the realm of possibility that UT retires undefeated at WM. His career is one of the greatest in the history of pro wrestling/sports entertainment.
I miss the days that the top talent could get a guy over just by having a match with them which is like you were saying about the NWA champ going territory to territory to work the top guy and elevate him even more. Very few, if any , guys have the ability to do that anymore. Back when the NWA was running hot and heavy, their roster was loaded with legitimate wrestling stars. Today, there just aren't anymore true stars, anymore and this is why Vince has to turn to guys like Taker, HHH and Rock to sell the PPV.
Strikeout King Wrote:what is up with the Truth/Miz firing? Is that just part of the show or is that for real?
Story
worker1, I agree that Ziggler, Morrison and Miz are the next stars. The transformation that Nitro/Morrison has made is incredible. i am very high on Ziggler.
I am not so hot on Daniel Bryan or Jack Swagger. The same guys that love Punk tend to be the same ones that love Bryan. If I had my choice, I take Punk. Jack Swagger is OBVIOUSLY Jim Ross' baby. I like the Vickie angle for him, I have been saying for years that the age of the manager needs to return because it could/could have do/done wonders for a Jack Swagger, Mark Henry, Perry Saturn (would have been a high-mid-carder in his day) and Dean Malenko.
I'm not a big fan of Swagger, either. Bryan, though, I think is very, very good in the ring and is capable of having good matches with anyone on the card. In my opinion, he is a better "in ring" talent than Punk, but nowhere near as charismatic or as skilled on the mic. Bryan is more for the internet fanboy types and so is Punk, but Punk's charisma pulls in the rest of the crowd, as well. I don't know that I would ever consider Bryan as world champion, but, if I am putting together a roster, I want him on it.
^That is why I really want the manager-theme to come back. Daniel Bryan and Jack Swagger might have a chance then.
That is a good role for Vicki. Personally, I think it has been really great of Vince to give Eddie Guerrero's wife a job with the company after his passing. Granted, she has had to be involved in some less than idea storylines, but, at least, it allowed her to continue to make a very good income after Eddie's unfortunate passing.
WWE Sucks Indy shows is where its at true wrestling not Vinces entertainment version. god i miss the original ECW the 90s era was awesome in all wcw wwe and ecw but since 2000 it has went down hill bad.. but i catch all the indy shows i can and really like the no holds barred atmosphere
LWC Wrote:worker1, I agree that Ziggler, Morrison and Miz are the next stars. The transformation that Nitro/Morrison has made is incredible. i am very high on Ziggler.
I am not so hot on Daniel Bryan or Jack Swagger. The same guys that love Punk tend to be the same ones that love Bryan. If I had my choice, I take Punk. Jack Swagger is OBVIOUSLY Jim Ross' baby. I like the Vickie angle for him, I have been saying for years that the age of the manager needs to return because it could/could have do/done wonders for a Jack Swagger, Mark Henry, Perry Saturn (would have been a high-mid-carder in his day) and Dean Malenko.
If Daniel Bryan could talk, he could surpass HBK. I'm serious about that. Fan's could get behind him. He makes everybody look grate against him. He has that "flare", pardon me as I self-ingratiate myself :biggrin: that Ric Flair had in the ring where he can wrestle a broomstick and make his bumps look great. Daniel Bryan is not just a high flyer, but a technical wreslter, a story teller in the ring (though that never happens anymore), and a shooter. If he had mic skills, this kid could be a superstar. He would be able to out-wrestle the guys like Miz, Morrison, Orton. He could be the believable little guy and take maulings from monsters like Henry, Kane and be believable in the quick roll-up pins. Or he could win the battle of submissions with guys like Swagger, Cena and Del Rio. I really think this guy has superior the in-ring skills to HBK, but if you can't voice a storyline, you will be stuck in mid-card land like Benoit was for so many years.
rustyankle Wrote:WWE Sucks Indy shows is where its at true wrestling not Vinces entertainment version. god i miss the original ECW the 90s era was awesome in all wcw wwe and ecw but since 2000 it has went down hill bad.. but i catch all the indy shows i can and really like the no holds barred atmosphere
ECW was not wrestling, and unfortunately it has forever changed wrestling. ECW was a car-wreck with no athleticism. Now, technical wrestlers can never tell story's in the ring because the hedonism in the stands will cry for 20 minutes "B-O-R-I-N-G"
Give me a Stone Cold vs. Bret Hart match any day over Tommy Dreamer and Raven trying to kill each other with a frying pan!