What does everyone think the biggest difference between eastern ky teams and teams from the western part of the state........For example that was one of the best teams ever at hazard last year i think they were better than the 2008 team and they just got crushed by mayfield in 2008 they only lost by 7 but if anyone saw the game it wasnt that close why cant eastern ky teams play with the "flat landers"
I may be completely wrong here,but I believe it has to do with a couple of things. First,county geography and second recruitment. Why does Mayfield dominate their neighbor Graves Co.. Mayfield is in Graves Co. and is a much smaller school. The city of Mayfield is about 6.8 square miles which is pretty large considering that most cities in eastern ky are much smaller and under around 3 square miles. Harlan for instance is only 1.8 square miles. This means that only the students who live inside the city boundaries attend Mayfield high school unless they pay tuition. Then how does Mayfield come up with better athletes than Graves Co.? That's where I think the recruitment comes in. Graves Co. has about 10 or 12 more players than does Mayfield each season. Also,variables such as coaching and team history come into effect. Mayfield is a historic football school. If you lived in Graves Co. and played football where would you want to play. Mayfield gets all the talent or most of it any way. If all the great athletes at Harlan Co. came to Harlan Ind. we would still be 1A but would be a powerhouse team that would be able to compete with the likes of Mayfield. So in my opinion it's mostly about the geographical make up and how many top athletes a school has at it's disposal.JMHO
Population is the same, but the west is more suburban with a $10K income increase and 7% of the population is black compared to 1% in EKY. This is by no means an argument based on wealth and ethnicity, but both play heavily into the factors. A wider range of athlete and they can afford to do more sport specific training gives WKY the leg up!
Stardust Wrote:Population is the same, but the west is more suburban with a $10K income increase and 7% of the population is black compared to 1% in EKY. This is by no means an argument based on wealth and ethnicity, but both play heavily into the factors. A wider range of athlete and they can afford to do more sport specific training gives WKY the leg up!
I'm sure you are right about that Stardust. There are several factors that play into it. The fact that Seky teams compete as well as they do considering all these factors is pretty astonishing I would say. There's alot to be said for farm raised,cornbread fed boy's. Bell Co. is a good example. Nobody has consistently beat them year in and year out and I'm pretty sure Harlan Co. will be that way also. I like have teams like Mayfield and Beechwood. They give you something to shoot for.
Stardust Wrote:Population is the same, but the west is more suburban with a $10K income increase and 7% of the population is black compared to 1% in EKY. This is by no means an argument based on wealth and ethnicity, but both play heavily into the factors. A wider range of athlete and they can afford to do more sport specific training gives WKY the leg up!
This is a good point and I agree with everything you've said Stardust, but there are exceptions to everything. Paris has a large black population, but they are not very good. I am sure other factors override their athleticism though.
Dragonsdad Wrote:I'm sure you are right about that Stardust. There are several factors that play into it. The fact that Seky teams compete as well as they do considering all these factors is pretty astonishing I would say. There's alot to be said for farm raised,cornbread fed boy's. Bell Co. is a good example. Nobody has consistently beat them year in and year out and I'm pretty sure Harlan Co. will be that way also. I like have teams like Mayfield and Beechwood. They give you something to shoot for.
I agree with you DD. I think that the above factors certainly play against EKY's ability to consistently compete with some of the other areas around the state and is a true testament that race, money and opportunity cannot factor what some of the EKY schools have displayed - dedication and pride!
Westside Wrote:This is a good point and I agree with everything you've said Stardust, but there are exceptions to everything. Paris has a large black population, but they are not very good. I am sure other factors override their athleticism though.
I agree Westie and was only offering up what I believe to be a contributing factor!
In HS Football, it comes down to three things that must be present for a program to be a top notch program:
1. Active/Supportive Booster program that allows the coaches to make decisions without questioning.
2. Active/Supportive Administration that allows the coaches access to the resources required.
3. Well structured feeder youth leagues.
4. Coaches that understand how to make kids believe that they are better than they are, know how to break down the opponent on film, know how to take advantage of 1, 2, and 3 above!!
I have a hard time buying into the population or athleticism arguments. Look at how successful the Lexington schools have been. They have plenty of both.
I played for Boyle County in the middle of the 17 years in a row and 19 straight losses vs. Danville. I do think that there are several factors that can add up to about 10% being the reason. Race, economy, etc to me can at the most be about 10% of the reason. To me, in my humble opinion, 90% of the difference is COACHING, administrative support, parental support and expectations. Dudley won at Bourbon. Bourbon didn't win before and hasn't won since.
64black&gold Wrote:I played for Boyle County in the middle of the 17 years in a row and 19 straight losses vs. Danville. I do think that there are several factors that can add up to about 10% being the reason. Race, economy, etc to me can at the most be about 10% of the reason. To me, in my humble opinion, 90% of the difference is COACHING, administrative support, parental support and expectations. Dudley won at Bourbon. Bourbon didn't win before and hasn't won since.
I think we all agree that good coaching is a must. Not just anybody can build an empire. But if you don't have the athletes with talent you can only go so far. Coach Mills at Bell is a great coach and will do great things at Bell,but he's no Dudley Hilton. You take Davenport off Bell's team and you'll seriously diminish their chances of winning a championship. That's how much the talented athlete means to the team. JMHO. Not picking on Bell just using them as an example.
64black&gold Wrote:I played for Boyle County in the middle of the 17 years in a row and 19 straight losses vs. Danville. I do think that there are several factors that can add up to about 10% being the reason. Race, economy, etc to me can at the most be about 10% of the reason. To me, in my humble opinion, 90% of the difference is COACHING, administrative support, parental support and expectations. Dudley won at Bourbon. Bourbon didn't win before and hasn't won since.
I was lucky enough to be at Paris while Dudley was at Bourbon Co. I remember standing on the sideline at Bourbon Co. during a Paris/Bourbon Co game and looking at their facilities and players and wondering how in the hell does he win here. I asked an assistant coach at Paris who had been at Bourbon Co the year before how Dudley does it. He said he wasn't impressed with Dudley's x's and o's but he was a great motivator and got the most out of each kid. I think he must be good at both to win like he does. I can't wait to see how he does at U Pike.
Paris' coach at the time was Randy Reese who had won 3 state titles of his own. Coach Reese was a perfectionist, and he was the hardest working coach I personally ever saw. He was also extremely arrogant and I don't mean that as insult because I respected him as much as any person I have ever known. I thought the world of him. I think he had too much pride and thought too much of himself to allow himself or his teams to lose.
smee Wrote:In HS Football, it comes down to three things that must be present for a program to be a top notch program:
1. Active/Supportive Booster program that allows the coaches to make decisions without questioning.
2. Active/Supportive Administration that allows the coaches access to the resources required.
3. Well structured feeder youth leagues.
4. Coaches that understand how to make kids believe that they are better than they are, know how to break down the opponent on film, know how to take advantage of 1, 2, and 3 above!!
I have a hard time buying into the population or athleticism arguments. Look at how successful the Lexington schools have been. They have plenty of both.
Then you just corroborated my argument! Lexington and Louisville both have ethnicity, population and money just as WKY does, thus they should be more successful than EKY as well......
# 1, first and foremost, you have to have the players/talent to compete with. You can do it with smoke and mirrors and getting the best out of average talent for a little while, but that gets exposed sooner or later. Old saying stands true, you don't bring a mule to the KY Derby and expect to win. #2, you have to have a quality coach and staff that will work hard with the kids, knows the game, knows his strengths and weaknesses and can motivate the kids to play hard and play the right way. #3, you need parental support who will work hard for the team and back the coach and stay out of the way as far as team dynamics are concerned. Nothing worse than a bunch of busy body parents thinking they know better how to run the team and making it known. And it only takes a few to make trouble and upset the apple cart. Those are the top 3. Next woud be:
#4 Backing from the school administration and community
#5 Good facilities
#6 Support from other coaches in other sports at the school
#7 Willingness to test yourself/team against good/better competition
#8 Ability to learn from your mistakes (this could rank much higher now that I think about it, but a good coach should do this anyway)
As a coach myself who has had some very successful teams and other teams that weren't very successful, this would be a pretty accurate list in order, in my humble opinion.
I know some of you are trying to tip toe around the ethnicity factor as it is a sensitve subject, but how many white kids can out play african american kids at the RB position?
If race wasnt a factor than almost every NFL running back wouldnt be black. They are just faster the majority of the time and bred with the genetics of there ancestors to be physically strong and fast.
Thats no secret and everyone knows that. Just take a look at the nfl and nba. That has a big impact on teams.
Another reason is IMO that teams in western ky that are smaller such as Mayfield get the better athletes because they know its probably a better school academically from a teach to student ratio as well as how much money each school has to deal with each student. Parents who have good athletes arent going to send there kids to graves co. when Mayfield has a good team every year and by making it to state championships, kids are a lot more likely to get noticed by colleges instead of going to a bigger school that cant win against the pther bigger schools like BG and PT.
Generally more African American players from a larger African American population in the central and pockets of the western part of the state. In the west, there is probably less focus on size. More focus on speed and agility. Especially the speed. The fans yell just as loud. The burgers taste just as good. Defeats feel just as bad.
IMO, the biggest factor is that 90% of kids in the West and in NKY focus only on football. You will see alot of guys that wrestle or run track also, or both, which help in football, which is probably the reason they do it. You will see the occasional guys play baseball.
RunItUpTheGut Wrote:I know some of you are trying to tip toe around the ethnicity factor as it is a sensitve subject, but how many white kids can out play african american kids at the RB position?
If race wasnt a factor than almost every NFL running back wouldnt be black. They are just faster the majority of the time and bred with the genetics of there ancestors to be physically strong and fast.
Thats no secret and everyone knows that. Just take a look at the nfl and nba. That has a big impact on teams.
Another reason is IMO that teams in western ky that are smaller such as Mayfield get the better athletes because they know its probably a better school academically from a teach to student ratio as well as how much money each school has to deal with each student. Parents who have good athletes arent going to send there kids to graves co. when Mayfield has a good team every year and by making it to state championships, kids are a lot more likely to get noticed by colleges instead of going to a bigger school that cant win against the pther bigger schools like BG and PT.
Tica Wrote:Generally more African American players from a larger African American population in the central and pockets of the western part of the state. In the west, there is probably less focus on size. More focus on speed and agility. Especially the speed. The fans yell just as loud. The burgers taste just as good. Defeats feel just as bad.
I think both of this hit it the best! Bottom-line, speed usually trumps power. You can make up for so many deficiencies with speed. And I guess it's a little known fact that us white boys don't run as fast as our African American peers. Thus, if the game comes down to two superior teams, one with speed and possibly less disciplined, they will still beat the bigger slower yet more disciplined team!
The college teams in Florida during the 80's and 90's (Miami, FSU and Florida) changed the game forever when they dominated the northern (whiter) teams with speed. Yes, Big and polished can still win occasionally, but not consistently.
So Runit and Tica, I give it to you guys for rounding out the debate!
BigVMan23 Wrote:# 1, first and foremost, you have to have the players/talent to compete with. You can do it with smoke and mirrors and getting the best out of average talent for a little while, but that gets exposed sooner or later. Old saying stands true, you don't bring a mule to the KY Derby and expect to win. #2, you have to have a quality coach and staff that will work hard with the kids, knows the game, knows his strengths and weaknesses and can motivate the kids to play hard and play the right way. #3, you need parental support who will work hard for the team and back the coach and stay out of the way as far as team dynamics are concerned. Nothing worse than a bunch of busy body parents thinking they know better how to run the team and making it known. And it only takes a few to make trouble and upset the apple cart. Those are the top 3. Next woud be:
#4 Backing from the school administration and community
#5 Good facilities
#6 Support from other coaches in other sports at the school
#7 Willingness to test yourself/team against good/better competition
#8 Ability to learn from your mistakes (this could rank much higher now that I think about it, but a good coach should do this anyway)
As a coach myself who has had some very successful teams and other teams that weren't very successful, this would be a pretty accurate list in order, in my humble opinion.
I like everything that you said, but I think the above are factors that can all be overcome once on the field! #7 goes back to the financial situation. All I heard last year during basketball was that the Mountain teams could not travel to CKY and other locations to test themselves because the schools can't afford it. So there is the financial part to the debate. If you can win and win consistently, then all of the other factors begin to take care of themselves. Bottom-line, and you know this if you are a coach, talent wins 90% of the time! I coach as well, but my wins and losses come from my kids, not me, the cheers in the stands, or the community backing. We have one an awful lot of games because we have more athletes than the other team!
RunItUpTheGut Wrote:I know some of you are trying to tip toe around the ethnicity factor as it is a sensitve subject, but how many white kids can out play african american kids at the RB position?
If race wasnt a factor than almost every NFL running back wouldnt be black. They are just faster the majority of the time and bred with the genetics of there ancestors to be physically strong and fast.
Thats no secret and everyone knows that. Just take a look at the nfl and nba. That has a big impact on teams.
Another reason is IMO that teams in western ky that are smaller such as Mayfield get the better athletes because they know its probably a better school academically from a teach to student ratio as well as how much money each school has to deal with each student. Parents who have good athletes arent going to send there kids to graves co. when Mayfield has a good team every year and by making it to state championships, kids are a lot more likely to get noticed by colleges instead of going to a bigger school that cant win against the pther bigger schools like BG and PT.
You do not have to have black kids to win in high school. Highlands has been winning for a long time and have had no black kids until the last couple of years, and now the are lucky if they have 2-4 black kids on the team. Cov Cath is the same way. Can't use the race card as an excuse for not winning.
We out west where I am from win more because we are better than the rest
MayfieldCardinal Wrote:We out west where I am from win more because we are better than the rest
The question is what makes you better than the rest? Fill us in that's what this whole thread is about.
Stardust, you are absolutely right...talent wins games, which is why I have it listed first. And to sustain a great program, I think you need all the ingrediants I listed.
As for west vs. east, I lived in far western KY for several years, went to Murray State and am familiar with many of the programs out there. I am going to say something that might shock some people, but here goes. As far as high school goes, KY is a football state, not basketball as some would still like to believe (my opinion of course). And to see it all you have to do is spend some time in western KY during football season. Football is the focus in many areas out there, and its not even close. I think this has a huge impact on football success when comparing west to east, and I think at least in some parts of eastern KY football is still secondary to basketball, putting them behind the 8ball before they ever hit the field. Couple this with a propensity to have a few more skill position kids and better team speed, you have the makings of a better team(s) in the west.
Highlands is as lily white as any team in Eastern Kentucky. The teams like Boyle County, Trinity, St. X, those teams are very white also. It's not JUST ethnicity.
I think the biggest difference is, what kind of background do these kids come from? What the super-successful schools tend to have in common is their kids from mostly upper-middle class backgrounds, where the family units are solid, and it's never a question they're going to do what they're supposed to do, take what they do seriously - they're going to go to school, go to practice, work hard, and go to college. This is what breeds success: work ethic. And that is something that comes from your upbringing, by and large. Very few kids make it in spite of their raising; those who make it usually do so BECAUSE of their raising.
THAT is what is sorely missing in EKY that you find in the successful teams across the state. Sure, you have occasional kids in EKY who work hard and do the right things. But there are way too many kids who have no stability - they live on government checks, wander from house to house because mom's on pills and God knows where dad is, don't know where they're gonna sleep at night sometimes, and come from generations of laziness and dependence. Why would these kids feel the need to work hard when they have no role models? EKY's really no different from inner-city teams in poor areas of the big cities. You don't see Bryan Station and Shawnee competing against the big programs - Shawnee can barely field a team due to non-participation.
It's not the "athletes". It's the lack of family support for the players, or the kids who SHOULD be playing sports (or in band, or on the academic team, or doing SOMETHING), but get lost instead.
Diogenes Wrote:Highlands is as lily white as any team in Eastern Kentucky. The teams like Boyle County, Trinity, St. X, those teams are very white also. It's not JUST ethnicity.
I think the biggest difference is, what kind of background do these kids come from? What the super-successful schools tend to have in common is their kids from mostly upper-middle class backgrounds, where the family units are solid, and it's never a question they're going to do what they're supposed to do, take what they do seriously - they're going to go to school, go to practice, work hard, and go to college. This is what breeds success: work ethic. And that is something that comes from your upbringing, by and large. Very few kids make it in spite of their raising; those who make it usually do so BECAUSE of their raising.
THAT is what is sorely missing in EKY that you find in the successful teams across the state. Sure, you have occasional kids in EKY who work hard and do the right things. But there are way too many kids who have no stability - they live on government checks, wander from house to house because mom's on pills and God knows where dad is, don't know where they're gonna sleep at night sometimes, and come from generations of laziness and dependence. Why would these kids feel the need to work hard when they have no role models? EKY's really no different from inner-city teams in poor areas of the big cities. You don't see Bryan Station and Shawnee competing against the big programs - Shawnee can barely field a team due to non-participation.
It's not the "athletes". It's the lack of family support for the players, or the kids who SHOULD be playing sports (or in band, or on the academic team, or doing SOMETHING), but get lost instead.
First, I have always prefaced "90%" of the time, and this argument is 100% EKY vs. WKY. Last I checked, HHS is NKY and they have been discounted from the question as much as CKY was early on!
As for the comment in bold, hmm, if the only kids who are successful are the ones with family support, then half of the NBA and NFL would all be of a different creed! Story after story of those great ahtletes, who made teams GREAT, came from ZERO family background! So that really does not hold a whole lot of water!
RunItUpTheGut Wrote:I know some of you are trying to tip toe around the ethnicity factor as it is a sensitve subject, but how many white kids can out play african american kids at the RB position?If race wasnt a factor than almost every NFL running back wouldnt be black. They are just faster the majority of the time and bred with the genetics of there ancestors to be physically strong and fast. Thats no secret and everyone knows that. Just take a look at the nfl and nba. That has a big impact on teams. Another reason is IMO that teams in western ky that are smaller such as Mayfield get the better athletes because they know its probably a better school academically from a teach to student ratio as well as how much money each school has to deal with each student. Parents who have good athletes arent going to send there kids to graves co. when Mayfield has a good team every year and by making it to state championships, kids are a lot more likely to get noticed by colleges instead of going to a bigger school that cant win against the pther bigger schools like BG and PT.
Enough said!! As I read all these post. Everyone was trying not to step on toes. Say what you mean! You are absolutely right about this subject. All the people should be proud of what they have to give. Being in the ARMY for years and years you find out that no matter the color of skin. All are your brothers. I'm not colorblind! Blacks over all make better athletics. We should all be proud of that. Don't be afraid to say it!
Diogenes Wrote:Highlands is as lily white as any team in Eastern Kentucky. The teams like Boyle County, Trinity, St. X, those teams are very white also. It's not JUST ethnicity.
I think the biggest difference is, what kind of background do these kids come from? What the super-successful schools tend to have in common is their kids from mostly upper-middle class backgrounds, where the family units are solid, and it's never a question they're going to do what they're supposed to do, take what they do seriously - they're going to go to school, go to practice, work hard, and go to college. This is what breeds success: work ethic. And that is something that comes from your upbringing, by and large. Very few kids make it in spite of their raising; those who make it usually do so BECAUSE of their raising.
THAT is what is sorely missing in EKY that you find in the successful teams across the state. Sure, you have occasional kids in EKY who work hard and do the right things. But there are way too many kids who have no stability - they live on government checks, wander from house to house because mom's on pills and God knows where dad is, don't know where they're gonna sleep at night sometimes, and come from generations of laziness and dependence. Why would these kids feel the need to work hard when they have no role models? EKY's really no different from inner-city teams in poor areas of the big cities. You don't see Bryan Station and Shawnee competing against the big programs - Shawnee can barely field a team due to non-participation.
It's not the "athletes". It's the lack of family support for the players, or the kids who SHOULD be playing sports (or in band, or on the academic team, or doing SOMETHING), but get lost instead.
That's about the most vain statement I have ever heard on BGR. I'm sure there are some isolated cases like what you described in EKY,but not at Harlan High School. 99% of the athletes in EKY don't grow up that way. There's not one kid on Harlan's team like that. You've got your opinion from that documentary about the one kid from Harlan Co. High School. That was one kid on that team of about 60 or so. That's the damage that a documentary like that does. Get over yourself!!!!!
RunItUpTheGut Wrote:I know some of you are trying to tip toe around the ethnicity factor as it is a sensitve subject, but how many white kids can out play african american kids at the RB position?
If race wasnt a factor than almost every NFL running back wouldnt be black. They are just faster the majority of the time and bred with the genetics of there ancestors to be physically strong and fast.
Thats no secret and everyone knows that. Just take a look at the nfl and nba. That has a big impact on teams.
Another reason is IMO that teams in western ky that are smaller such as Mayfield get the better athletes because they know its probably a better school academically from a teach to student ratio as well as how much money each school has to deal with each student. Parents who have good athletes arent going to send there kids to graves co. when Mayfield has a good team every year and by making it to state championships, kids are a lot more likely to get noticed by colleges instead of going to a bigger school that cant win against the pther bigger schools like BG and PT.
RunItUpTheGut I have no clue of who you are. But I'm so glad their is someone out hear that will say what they feel. If more were like you all the people would be happier!
I think you hit it on the head again. Good job! jmo all...
Stardust Wrote:First, I have always prefaced "90%" of the time, and this argument is 100% EKY vs. WKY. Last I checked, HHS is NKY and they have been discounted from the question as much as CKY was early on!
As for the comment in bold, hmm, if the only kids who are successful are the ones with family support, then half of the NBA and NFL would all be of a different creed! Story after story of those great ahtletes, who made teams GREAT, came from ZERO family background! So that really does not hold a whole lot of water!
I have strongly disagreed with Stardust on other threads but he is on target on this one as I have agreed with every post he has put on here. There are teams that are exceptions such as Highlands and Boyle County but for most teams to be consistently successful, African American athletes play a big role. It is basically a culmination of several factors but the quality of athletes is the biggest and most decided factor. Excluding Highlands, St. Xavier, and Trinity(as they get the cream of the lily white crop from a large metro area), you will have the occasional Boyle County, Bell County, and Breathitt County that are from more rural areas winning state titles. Actually in Kentucky, schools that are the most successful are the ones who have a mix of kids from different ethnic backgrounds. Some of the most underachieving athletic programs in the state who have every advantage with location and facilities is the Fayette County Public Schools.
Race, socio-economic status, etc all play into it, but let's not forget something else... DESIRE. I don't know how many times I have seen a kid, no matter what part of the state he was from, or what color his skin was, simply WILL himself to succeed. The ones who do, play for the name on the FRONT of their jersey, and the rest takes care of itself.
Then, you couple that with skill position players who have the strength, speed, and desire as well. Pikeville's run in the 80's is a perfect example. Start with Greg Hackney. He was an undersized running back, but he never stopped moving his legs, hit like a ton of bricks. He was fast, but not blazing fast. Then he had a QB with a very good arm, but the intangible quality of being a true leader on the field as well. Big old hog mollies on the front line who never gave up, etc. All schools go through cycles in all sports. Yes, you have some that are consistent year after year due to ability to provide facilities, etc., and that makes players want to come there (Highlands, St. X, Trinity, etc.).
Then look at the talent pool to draw from. Pikeville has 382 students in the top 4 grades, I believe. Roughly half are male (let's say 191). Of that half, how many play football? Lets say 60, then how many are really good? Then, how many play multiple sports due to small population? They have men's soccer, football at the same time, then you have basketball, etc. More sports equals more specialization, which detracts from the talent pool. Then, the feeder programs. It is no secret the Pikeville little league became disorganized and unfocused for several years, which led to players entering high school fundamentally unsound, when they didn't succeed, they lost interest. Now, they are making a comeback. The last two years, I've seen a big upswing in focus on fundamentals for ALL the positions, not just a select few "name families" players. The results are promising, and I'm going to go on record now as saying Pikeville is getting ready to hit another run in the next 4-5 years. This years' 4-5-6th grades have some outstanding young athletes, and I see the seedlings of some good size for linemen. The current junior high coach is great, the current staff for the 5th and 6th grade team is great as well, and they are all teaching the basics of the offense the players will be playing for the next several years, which leads to familiarity and continuity. In addition to all that, the 4-5-6th grade classes are among the largest the school has had in some time.
This is an interesting thread with a ton of good comments and thought-provoking ideas. One of the reasons I visit this site. Thanks for reading along!
Stardust Wrote:First, I have always prefaced "90%" of the time, and this argument is 100% EKY vs. WKY. Last I checked, HHS is NKY and they have been discounted from the question as much as CKY was early on!
As for the comment in bold, hmm, if the only kids who are successful are the ones with family support, then half of the NBA and NFL would all be of a different creed! Story after story of those great ahtletes, who made teams GREAT, came from ZERO family background! So that really does not hold a whole lot of water!
It may originate as EKY vs WKY, but really, the question at the heart of it is, why don't EKY teams compete for and win titles on a regular basis versus the rest of the state? Because if you're talking about WKY teams, with the exception of Mayfield, they're not any more successful than EKY teams. Outside of Mayfield (and Fort Campbell, I guess, but they're not really germane to this since they get a big new crop of kids every year from the military), who in WKY is dominating? O-Cath, Hop-town, Bowling Green, et cetera, every year a team from the west makes it to the state final because the brackets are set up such that a team from the west HAS to make it there, and almost universally that western team gets smoked in the final by a team from Lex/Lou/NKY just like all the EKY teams get smoked by those teams. So the real question is one of two things: why is Mayfield so good, or why are EKY teams so bad?
I'll grant you there are a few against-the-odds success stories in the NBA/NFL. But I'd also wager that for every one who made it against the odds, there are ten or more with just as much physical ability who amounted to nothing due to lack of guidance. So many kids like Michael Oher (of "Blind Side" fame), except those kids don't end up the movies. They end up in rehabs, homeless shelters, prisons, or way too often, in cemeteries. It's happening in the cities. It's happening in the mountains. Everywhere poverty is rampant, it's happening.
Dragonsdad Wrote:That's about the most vain statement I have ever heard on BGR. I'm sure there are some isolated cases like what you described in EKY,but not at Harlan High School. 99% of the athletes in EKY don't grow up that way. There's not one kid on Harlan's team like that. You've got your opinion from that documentary about the one kid from Harlan Co. High School. That was one kid on that team of about 60 or so. That's the damage that a documentary like that does. Get over yourself!!!!!
I grew up in Eastern Kentucky. I graduated from Johnson Central. I worked in EKY. It's there; I've seen 30+ years of it personally. Kids who have no ride to and from practice. Kids who can't play football because they have to work for a living. Kids who come from homes where HS graduation isn't pushed because nobody there has done it. Kids who are shuttled around from house to house and sometimes don't know where they're going to sleep. I knew those kids in HS. There are plenty of them. Sure, there are plenty of good families that turn out motivated, hard-working kids who have the time and resources to become quality athletes. But they're not a majority. The kids on the team are the ones who are making it. It's the kids who are NOT on the team you don't know. You have so many boys roaming the halls of all these schools who could be great...if they had some guidance, if they had a ride to practice, if they didn't have to care for their siblings or work a job to help pay the family bills after school. You may be a 4A school, but when it comes to the number of boys who actually end up being able to play, you usually end up with 2A or 3A-like numbers of quality athletes. It puts you at a disadvantage against schools with similar enrollments but with higher per capita incomes, where all the kids are third-generation football players and they all drive their SUVs to practice and spend their summers going to high-end skills camps. For the record, I now work in Southwest Louisville, an area feeding high schools like Valley, Doss, PRP...it's an area with similar demographics to EKY, and they have very similar problems. It's definitely NOT limited to the mountains. It's a poverty problem, not a geography problem.
OrangenowBlue Wrote:I have strongly disagreed with Stardust on other threads but he is on target on this one as I have agreed with every post he has put on here. There are teams that are exceptions such as Highlands and Boyle County but for most teams to be consistently successful, African American athletes play a big role. It is basically a culmination of several factors but the quality of athletes is the biggest and most decided factor. Excluding Highlands, St. Xavier, and Trinity(as they get the cream of the lily white crop from a large metro area), you will have the occasional Boyle County, Bell County, and Breathitt County that are from more rural areas winning state titles. Actually in Kentucky, schools that are the most successful are the ones who have a mix of kids from different ethnic backgrounds. Some of the most underachieving athletic programs in the state who have every advantage with location and facilities is the Fayette County Public Schools.
But the converse is true: if having black players makes you better, why don't schools like Louisville Western and Bryan Station win every year? It's more complicated than just simple ethnicity. I agree with you about the Lexington public schools underachieving, but is Lexington Catholic underachieving? Nope. Why not? Check the backgrounds of those kids, versus the kids at the public schools. In Louisville, check the backgrounds of the kids at X and T vs the kids at the JCPS schools. Do I think their students on the average are more physically gifted than the public schools? No. The private schools have their share of 99 pounders, too. But when you can get more of your boys out for football and those kids have good work ethics they've learned from their families, the difference shows up on the scoreboard. Without stability and resources, a kid just will not live up to his full potential, and impoverished areas like EKY do not have the same level of stability and resources on average as the more affluent schools. Thus, the schools in poor areas will not produce the same number of quality players as schools of similar sizes in richer areas. This applies whether the poor area in question is 99% white or 99% black.
No, I can't explain how Mayfield does it. Coaching and tradition make a difference. But they're an exception, not the rule. The rest of WKY is in pretty much the same boat as EKY, far as I can tell.
Westside Wrote:This is a good point and I agree with everything you've said Stardust, but there are exceptions to everything. Paris has a large black population, but they are not very good. I am sure other factors override their athleticism though.
I think I only saw 2 black kids starting for Paris and both of them are their better players, especially the running back. So maybe if Paris could get more kids to play, a HUGE problem for them, it may help out!