[goBIGblue82]

RunItUpTheGut, there is truth to this so you shouldn't speak on it if you are uninformed. It is a collective pursuit to scale back middle school athletics by the KHSAA and the KED. You should talk to your coaches and school board about what can be done to preserve our middle school athletics.

[Strikeout King]

Middle School is not a part of the KHSAA, that's strictly for high school's, Not sure how KHSAA could say anything about Middle School's when it doesn't concern them

[RunItUpTheGut]

^
Exactly, UNLESS the KMSFA AGREES to scale back, the KHSAA cannot make them.
That would be against the law.

You do understand Bigblue that they are two totally different orginizations and have nothing to do with each other, correct?

Until it can be backed up with facts, theres no way possible it can be done.
The only way it the KMSFA would scale back is if it were on there own terms and done it be cause they wanted to, thus making the title read.....KMFSA decides to step back, instead of the KHSAA is MAKING them do it.

[Strikeout King]

I'm fixing to talk to SD about this very situation, if anyone on here knows it would be him since he's a Coach

[RunItUpTheGut]

^
Yea, it would definitely help if the guys overseeing the KMSFA would shed some light, we might know more.

It just seems wierd to me that people would think tha tthe KHSAA could do something about the KMSFA or why they would even want to for that matter as they are two completely different orginizations.

[Stardust]

I'm not sure what the discussion is about. I see that it was correctly pointed out that the KYMSFA is a separate organization than KHSAA, and neither has anything to do with the other. KHSAA does not recognize and Non-High School organization, thus there is no connection between these organizations. Both organizations are "club" organizations, meaning that schools may participate in each voluntarily. KHSAA has a governing body, but the rules committee is made up of the member schools. KYMSFA has a similar organizational structure, but does not have the statewide oversight within the schools as does KHSAA.

Again, if someone could frame up the question for me, I could better assist. But based on the thread, there is no organizational structure that dictates KHSAA over KYMSFA. As for KHSAA trying to "do away with", I'm just not sure I understand the meaning of the comment. Our school is a member of KYMSFA, but they randomly choose which sporting functions they participate in.

I'm not going to say that the two organizations do not have issue with the other. The only things that I have heard during the start-up of the KYMSFA was the fact that since KHSAA felt they put controls into the HS eligibility by instituting the 8th grade rule (the school district that you attend your 8th grade year is where you will enter HS). That was to help with the recruiting fears. KYMSFA did not at the time have any rules for eligibility and the thought of having organized sports championships would open up recruiting into the middle schools. It is my understanding that is still an issue, so, if KHSAA has any issues with KYMSFA, if would be that there are no controls.

Again, if I'm missing something, its only because I do not know what you are trying to get answered.

[NEXT]

At one time KHSAA controlled all athletics 6-12th grade just like WVSSAC in West Virginia. That changed 10-15 years ago.

There is now concern in the state among various agencies (KHSAA, KDE, etc.) that there is just way to much football being played by 11-15 yr old kids. Some schools are playing 2,3, even 4 games a week, sometimes back to back, sometimes 3 games in 3 days.

I don't care who you are, that is way to much. There is now talk that they will start to regulate football in MS for athlete safety.

[Block Down Kick Out]

There has been some discussion. The KHSAA from what I understand doesn't want to control any part of middle school sports. BUT there is some concern about lack of limitations. For example middle school basketball teams playing 40 games. Middle school football teams playing 12 game season plus a playoff.

That is what I know about the discussions.

[Stardust]

At one time KHSAA controlled all athletics 6-12th grade just like WVSSAC in West Virginia. That changed 10-15 years ago.

There is now concern in the state among various agencies (KHSAA, KDE, etc.) that there is just way to much football being played by 11-15 yr old kids. Some schools are playing 2,3, even 4 games a week, sometimes back to back, sometimes 3 games in 3 days.

I don't care who you are, that is way to much. There is now talk that they will start to regulate football in MS for athlete safety.

First off, the rules of KHSAA are dictated by the schools, not the KHSAA. If there are MS's playing 2,3,4 games, then the problem is with the schools themselves. As for the Department of education, there is nothing that they can do about this. This falls into extracurricular activities, which are not governed by the KDE. It would still be voluntary for a Middle School to join and still would have no tie-in with the High School in any way.

I'm not taking either side. I do not support schools playing contact sports more than once per day, but I also coached youth football, and I do know that before HS, no matter what sport you play, the number of games is tremendously higher than it is in HS.

[goBIGblue82]

I think a KYMSFA board member would be the best option to give details on this subject, because I can only give the little bit of information that I obtained from a board member in a brief conversation. Thus what I was told was that the KHSAA and the KDE were working collectively to get a legislation passed that would regulate middle school athletic competitions. Thus would involve multiple sports not just football. It wouldn't necessarily end the KYMSFA, however it would significantly decrease games played and post season tournaments. Therefore from what I was told it would be almost impossible to continue with a state tournamet format within middle school.

[Stardust]

I think a KYMSFA board member would be the best option to give details on this subject, because I can only give the little bit of information that I obtained from a board member in a brief conversation. Thus what I was told was that the KHSAA and the KDE were working collectively to get a legislation passed that would regulate middle school athletic competitions. Thus would involve multiple sports not just football. It wouldn't necessarily end the KYMSFA, however it would significantly decrease games played and post season tournaments. Therefore from what I was told it would be almost impossible to continue with a state tournamet format within middle school.

Whoa, that's where I have to suggest that you are getting incorrect information from a board member. When you say legislation, you have just turned this completely around. This is not "legal", and we will never see "legislation" in sports in our lifetime. As I have said, KHSAA, KYMSFA, these are clubs! You pay a membership fee to participate in those organizations, thus, there is NO POSSIBLE way for legally binding a school to participate in a club. KDE has no ability, trust me, NO ABILITY to enforce upon schools to participate in in club organization. As for KDE and KHSAA being connected in any way, notta! They have zero to do with each other. Neither organization has anything to do with the other.

I'm not calling you out, but the person who passed this information on to you has passed on to you some information that either was not explained clearly enough to you, or they fabricated it. I'm in a position to understand KHSAA better than the average person, since I am a member of the organization.

I'll put it to you this way, give me two weeks to follow-up, since I will be at a meeting with KHSAA in Louisville over the weekend of January 20-21. I'll get the facts.

[RunItUpTheGut]

^
Spot on.
Thats what i was trying to say, but i dont have the vocabulary Dusty does :biggrin:

[plantmanky]

Whoa, that's where I have to suggest that you are getting incorrect information from a board member. When you say legislation, you have just turned this completely around. This is not "legal", and we will never see "legislation" in sports in our lifetime. As I have said, KHSAA, KYMSFA, these are clubs! You pay a membership fee to participate in those organizations, thus, there is NO POSSIBLE way for legally binding a school to participate in a club. KDE has no ability, trust me, NO ABILITY to enforce upon schools to participate in in club organization. As for KDE and KHSAA being connected in any way, notta! They have zero to do with each other. Neither organization has anything to do with the other.

I'm not calling you out, but the person who passed this information on to you has passed on to you some information that either was not explained clearly enough to you, or they fabricated it. I'm in a position to understand KHSAA better than the average person, since I am a member of the organization.

I'll put it to you this way, give me two weeks to follow-up, since I will be at a meeting with KHSAA in Louisville over the weekend of January 20-21. I'll get the facts.

STARDUST, you are incorrect, KY has passed legislation (See House Bill 383) in the past, and will continue to do so. Because of HB383 all HS coaches are required to go through several training programs and the KHSAA Sports Safety Course.

[plantmanky]

I think a KYMSFA board member would be the best option to give details on this subject, because I can only give the little bit of information that I obtained from a board member in a brief conversation. Thus what I was told was that the KHSAA and the KDE were working collectively to get a legislation passed that would regulate middle school athletic competitions. Thus would involve multiple sports not just football. It wouldn't necessarily end the KYMSFA, however it would significantly decrease games played and post season tournaments. Therefore from what I was told it would be almost impossible to continue with a state tournamet format within middle school.

GOBIGBLUE82, the information in your post is correct. The KHSAA was asked to look into "Limitations of Seasons" and other safety issue in middle school athletics by the KDE. The KHSAA response was that they do not have (nor do that want at this time) any authority of Middle School Athletics. Therefore the KDE is working with KHSAA and several KY Legislators on this issue. The KYMSFA as well as other Middle School State/Local Organizations have requested meetings with the KDE to discuss these matters.

[RunItUpTheGut]

STARDUST, you are incorrect, KY has passed legislation (See House Bill 383) in the past, and will continue to do so. Because of HB383 all HS coaches are required to go through several training programs and the KHSAA Sports Safety Course.

There is a difference in Saftey and actual competetion, which is the point i believe Dusty was trying to make.
The legislation you are referring to has to deal with safety among students competeting in athletics, no with the competetion or anything that has to do with the format set up by the two orginizations.

[RunItUpTheGut]

GOBIGBLUE82, the information in your post is correct. The KHSAA was asked to look into "Limitations of Seasons" and other safety issue in middle school athletics by the KDE. The KHSAA response was that they do not have (nor do that want at this time) any authority of Middle School Athletics. Therefore the KDE is working with KHSAA and several KY Legislators on this issue. The KYMSFA as well as other Middle School State/Local Organizations have requested meetings with the KDE to discuss these matters.

So what exactly is the difference is you do away with the KMSFA?
Your still going to have middle school football. With the KMSFA, you atleast have some type of orginization and playoff system.
Under the old way, you still have teams playing 10-12 games a year with conferences and competetion.
I dont undersstand why anybody would want to take away a legitimate orginization who is there for the best intrest in our middle school sports system.

[plantmanky]

So what exactly is the difference is you do away with the KMSFA?
Your still going to have middle school football. With the KMSFA, you atleast have some type of orginization and playoff system.
Under the old way, you still have teams playing 10-12 games a year with conferences and competetion.
I dont undersstand why anybody would want to take away a legitimate orginization who is there for the best intrest in our middle school sports system.

If the State was to legislate a limitation of seasons you could have things the way they are in Ohio. Ohio Rules - Grades 7 & 8 may participate in one scrimmage after 10 days of practice. Two scrimmages are permitted if a maximum of seven regular season games are scheduled. No team is allowed to play more than 10 games/scrimmages in a season.

[Stardust]

- As I said, I will shed light on this when I return from Louisville in a few weeks at the annual KHSAA meeting. Then we can determine who has the correct information. Otherwise, all of this is hearsay, you have your source, and I have mine (KHSAA).

[goBIGblue82]

Thanks Plantmanky for shedding more light on this situation. As is said in my previous post I could only comment on the brief information I was given, and wasn't able to provide exact details. Maybe this will allow several others (who were to stubborn to listen to what I was saying) to open their eyes to the situation. It's my fear that this legislation would force KY middle school athletics to take a giant step backward. As is right now KY middle school football is growing rapidly and it will only improve KY high school football. I have talked to several people associated with middle school football organizations in other states, all of which said that the system we have in place is something to take great pride in, and much more advanced than what they have.

[Stardust]

GOBIGBLUE82, the information in your post is correct. The KHSAA was asked to look into "Limitations of Seasons" and other safety issue in middle school athletics by the KDE. The KHSAA response was that they do not have (nor do that want at this time) any authority of Middle School Athletics. Therefore the KDE is working with KHSAA and several KY Legislators on this issue. The KYMSFA as well as other Middle School State/Local Organizations have requested meetings with the KDE to discuss these matters.

Can you show a link or something that corroborates this?

[plantmanky]

Below is an email that was sent out on the MSFOOTBALL list serve back in the late fall by KYMSFA VP JEFF MANN.


Coaches and Administrators,
The KDE and the KHSAA will be having discussions on Dec 6th and 7th to determine restrictions that the KHSAA will possibly put on Middle School football or athletics in general. We don't oppose the KHSAA but would prefer to work with them to continue what we do in the area of Middle School football. The KYMSFA has worked diligently over the last 4 years to make Middle School football in the State of Kentucky something that the kids who participate will remember for the rest of their lives. We have tried to work with the KHSAA over the years but any restrictions of games etc will limit the opportunities that the KYMSFA will be able to provide. The KYMSFA wants to be able to continue to serve our Middle School members and provide competitive opportunities. We have over the past 4 years provided opportunities for the players to be successful and excel in the sport of football by providing various venues such as 7 on 7 tournaments, The KYMSFA State Championship Playoffs, East/West All Star games and now the newly developed KY Team which is competing in a National tournament, not to mention the the various organization that we have worked with like FBU and OD to provide camps and All Star selection to play in a much larger venue in the Alamo Dome in San Antonio Texas in a national All Star event.

Bottom line, we need your support, if your could please take the time to draft a email support letter for our organization and send it to [email]gmitchell@kymiddleschoolfootball.com[/email] before tomorrow. The KYMSFA appreciates your support and we look forward to serving you in the future. Please let your administrators know as well and hopefully we have their support as well.

Thank you,
Coach Mann
KMSFA Vice President &
Championship Coordinator
Kentucky Middle School Football Association
2800 Lexington Financial Center
Lexington, Kentucky 40507
[email]jmann@kymiddleschoolfootball.com[/email]

[Stardust]

^ Thanks, this is perfect. If you don't care, I would like to reference that there was a message from Coach Mann, but I will not use the above information since it was probably sent to coaches in confidence.

[plantmanky]

^ Thanks, this is perfect. If you don't care, I would like to reference that there was a message from Coach Mann, but I will not use the above information since it was probably sent to coaches in confidence.

You can use the message above in full context. Mr Tackett from the KHSAA is on the MSFOOTBALL list serv and sees all emails on/from it.

[Stardust]

^ I have a few contacts that won't be as "political" as Mr. Tackett has to be.

[plantmanky]

^ I have a few contacts that won't be as "political" as Mr. Tackett has to be.

WHAT, Political in the KHSAA, say it ain't so, lol.

[RoShamBo]

My only problem with this point is that other than the middle school playoffs, the KYMSFA doesn't do any of the scheduling for these teams. If they are upset about number of games played per week wouldn't they have to take that to the coaches?

[Stardust]

^ I think that is what the threads point is. The issue is directed at the coaches (and the schools themselves) for not putting in controls. So, from the point of this thread, since there is no governing body, there is no possible way to manage this. I just checked and our school does not belong of KYMSFA, they belong to another organization. You would almost have to designate a single governing body to oversee all Middle School athletics. And, it would have to be an organization that all schools are willing to join.

[Block Down Kick Out]

I think the main goal of all of this is:

1. Kids Saftey - Heat, number of days praticing, etc.....

2. Limitations of season-

Other than those two points I am not sure anyone is trying to do anything else.

A appluad the efforts of the Middle School Assoc. They have done a great job in such short time. This just isn't a football issue.

[plantmanky]

I think the main goal of all of this is:

1. Kids Saftey - Heat, number of days praticing, etc.....

2. Limitations of season-

Other than those two points I am not sure anyone is trying to do anything else.

A appluad the efforts of the Middle School Assoc. They have done a great job in such short time. This just isn't a football issue.

I will disagree with you that this IS a football issue.

If KDE or KY Legislators were to impose a limitation of seasons similar to Ohio, (10 game max) It would be impossible for the KYMSFA State Playoffs to take place, therefore making this indeed a football issue.

[footballfever]

I think a 10 game regular season plus playoffs would be fine. I also believe if you don't make or choose not to be in playoffs 12 games would be enough. I also believe KHSAA would not allow a holdback to play during repeat year just as they do know for HS athletics. I also think another concern is $$$$$. Alot of $$$ has been brought in the last 2 years by the KYMSFA. These are just a few of my opinions.