After watching the Alabama game yesterday on Tivo and being able to rewind and look at some things over, Mike Hartline and the play of our QB is not the MAIN issue.
Now, Hartline has improved tremendously from last season. However, there are still a lot of things he needs to work on (i.e., leading receivers, throwing the ball away (Woodson had the same issue), not just throwing the ball up for grabs, etc.), but he is still our best option RIGHT now. Fidler is a back-up for a reason and Newton just isn't ready. But all of that has been well debated and probably will continue to be debated the rest of the season.
Two things that have KILLED Kentucky this season, in wins and losses, are stupid penalties and poor execution on defense. Kentucky numerous personal foul/unsportsmanlike conduct penalties against Lousiville, but they won so they didn't get noticed all that much. Yesterday, how many 15-yard penalties did UK have? 4? 5? At least 3 came on drives where the offense was moving the ball fairly well, and then a flag would be thrown. Things like that are inexcusable and at times are the difference between a win and a loss.
The tackling is beyond pititful. They tackled poorly against Miami. They couldn't bring down Louisville. I didn't see a whole lot of the Florida game, but I can't imagine it being any worse than yesterday. The defensive backs need to stop worrying so much about laying the lumber to someone and just bring him down. The 32-yard run by Ingram was just horrible. He ran through all 11 of Kentucky's defenders and ran untouched to the endzone. Defense wins championships, Kentucky will be lucky to beat EKU and LA-Monroe if they don't learn to tackle people.
StrikeoutKing Wrote:After watching the Alabama game yesterday on Tivo and being able to rewind and look at some things over, Mike Hartline and the play of our QB is not the MAIN issue.
Now, Hartline has improved tremendously from last season. However, there are still a lot of things he needs to work on (i.e., leading receivers, throwing the ball away (Woodson had the same issue), not just throwing the ball up for grabs, etc.), but he is still our best option RIGHT now. Fidler is a back-up for a reason and Newton just isn't ready. But all of that has been well debated and probably will continue to be debated the rest of the season.
Two things that have KILLED Kentucky this season, in wins and losses, are stupid penalties and poor execution on defense. Kentucky numerous personal foul/unsportsmanlike conduct penalties against Lousiville, but they won so they didn't get noticed all that much. Yesterday, how many 15-yard penalties did UK have? 4? 5? At least 3 came on drives where the offense was moving the ball fairly well, and then a flag would be thrown. Things like that are inexcusable and at times are the difference between a win and a loss.
The tackling is beyond pititful. They tackled poorly against Miami. They couldn't bring down Louisville. I didn't see a whole lot of the Florida game, but I can't imagine it being any worse than yesterday. The defensive backs need to stop worrying so much about laying the lumber to someone and just bring him down. The 32-yard run by Ingram was just horrible. He ran through all 11 of Kentucky's defenders and ran untouched to the endzone. Defense wins championships, Kentucky will be lucky to beat EKU and LA-Monroe if they don't learn to tackle people.
Some of this is true, but how do u know hartline is are best option? clearly he shouldnt even be an option for us! If your saying we are going to bearely beat these teams and loose the rest of are SEC games then we should go with one of the freshmen quarterbacks, remeber hartline was benched last year and got a chance because cobb was injured, he needs to be setting on the bench, are defense played great in the first half and for what? us to move the ball 5 yards then kick a field goal. eventually your defense gets tired and see that theres no point to them even trying.
UK's #1 problem is the lack of pressure they are able to generate on opposing teams using their Front 4. Steve Brown refuses to blitz, that is his style, but when UK cannot pressure the QB and the opposing team has plenty of time to pass, the UK LB's or Safety's end up getting burnt. Look at the 99 yard drive 'Bama had. The UK LB's and Matt Lentz got absolutely tore apart on that drive.
The penalties and lack of execution are without a doubt the offenses' biggest problem.
Ok seriously if you guys are avoiding the fact that are QB is a freaking retard then there is something wrong,
I am so done with this have fun with the Hartline lovefest...Nearly everyone realizes it except for a select few, **** even the announcers notice it...It is really sad when you are pointed out during a game MORE than once by announcer stating..."To all you young QBs watching this game this is what not to do" you have a major problem with a "seasoned" QB...Much the same as Garcia at South Carolina. Every one of his interceptions were poor reads by him and not good plays by the opposing secondary sorry...If you cant lead a reciever who is 5 yards away streaking across the field then you are pretty much useless to the offense and he did this on mroe than one occasion...It is time to do a little bit of dual QB to get Newton ready a little bit give him a small package to work with and let him play 15 to 20 snaps a game that is all im asking for and let us see what we are missing...if he doesnt do very good than that is fine ill be more than happy to stick with Hartline...But please go the grace of good work someone into the rotation a little bit just to see if there is a better option if not then we will just have to sit through a pitiful excuse for a QB...Also I am tired of hearing about well they are ranked # 3...With the way the D WAS playing till they got tired and the way we was moving the ball when we wasnt having to rely on the passing game and controling the clock we had a good shot at winning...Facts are Facts but apparently the two of you love "Mark" as the announcers call him so much you will never admit it unless we can see what either A) Fidler can do or B) Newton...
Hartline is our best option at this point. I want to ask a serious, SERIOUS, question. Did ANY of you think we would be any better than 2-2 at this point in the season?
Seriously? When you saw the schedule, did you think, "Well, ****, let's chalk up two automatic wins against Florida and Bama."
I guarantee you did not. The fact is, we have won the games we were supposed to win, and lost the games we were supposed to lose. Nothing has changed. At this point in the season, we are exactly where everyone expected us to be.
Now, if later in the season, we are doing poorly and it's clearly Hartline's fault, then I'm all for pulling him and getting experience in at our QB position. But to pull our starter only 4 games in would be ridiculous. Especially when we are exactly where everyone thought we would be.
I could understand pulling him if we were 0-4 and had lost to UofL and Miami, but we aren't. We lost to 2 amazing teams, and it would be hard for any team in the country to beat Bama or Florida.
ComfortEagle Wrote:Hartline is our best option at this point. I want to ask a serious, SERIOUS, question. Did ANY of you think we would be any better than 2-2 at this point in the season?
Seriously? When you saw the schedule, did you think, "Well, ****, let's chalk up two automatic wins against Florida and Bama."
I guarantee you did not. The fact is, we have won the games we were supposed to win, and lost the games we were supposed to lose. Nothing has changed. At this point in the season, we are exactly where everyone expected us to be.
Now, if later in the season, we are doing poorly and it's clearly Hartline's fault, then I'm all for pulling him and getting experience in at our QB position. But to pull our starter only 4 games in would be ridiculous. Especially when we are exactly where everyone thought we would be.
I could understand pulling him if we were 0-4 and had lost to UofL and Miami, but we aren't. We lost to 2 amazing teams, and it would be hard for any team in the country to beat Bama or Florida.
I agree CE. I don't even know if there is another team in the country that can beat Alabama or Florida at this point.
CE and Outdoorsman needs to stop being *****es...the reason we are mad is because there were parts of the game that we played really well and if we had a QB that could have performed we might have won.
vundy33 Wrote:CE and Outdoorsman needs to stop being *****es...the reason we are mad is because there were parts of the game that we played really well and if we had a QB that could have performed we might have won.
Really? Then explain those. Show me how it was Hartline's fault that we got all of those penalties in the Florida game. Show me how it was Hartline's fault that our defense hasn't played to their potential all year.
Please give me some good, valid points and you might have a worthy argument. Until then, you are just blowing steam and like the majority of upset UK fans, you have no clue who to blame, so you put the blame on the easiest person to pick out, and that's Hartline. It is NOT Hartline's fault if his receivers can't catch the ball. It is NOT Hartline's fault if his offensive line gets their ***** whipped and he's rushed into throwing it away or dumping it to a screen.
For all the Hartline bashers, how about you all give some ACTUAL REASONS why you want a change. And I mean real reasons, not the "Well, cuz he sucks," comments I constantly hear. Show me how and why it was Hartline's fault that we lost the Florida and Bama games. Until then you're all just full of it. And then, IF you can even do that, prove to me how bringing in another QB will solve the problem. And again, don't give me a "Well, anybody's better than Hartline," because that's not true and you all know it. I want actual reasons why the backup QB's would be better and more evidence than just the fact that they came in to UK with some stars beside their names.
There is just one problem with EweKay. Like Marshall, it continues to live in the past. EweKay has not won an outright SEC title since Bryant left for Texas A&M and the Junction Boys. EweKay has not played in a New Year's Day bowl since Timmy Couch. In two years, EweKay is 0-6 vs the SEC East. Just because EweKay won 3 straight late December bowl games, it does not even compare to WVU winning two BCS bowls in 4 years. 2 Banjo Bowl wins and a Memphis Bowl win does not equal a Sugar Bowl win, a Fiesta Bowl win, and a Gator Bowl win. When EweKay plays in an actual BCS bowl let me know. I will not be holding my breath.
Two of Hartline's interceptions were his fault, I'll give you that. One he just threw across his body falling off his back foot. However, one hit TC Drake in the HANDS!!! God forbid a football hit a receiver in the hands! That's the same TC Drake that dropped a catchable ball from Cobb. Hartline needs to do a better job of leading his receivers. He throws the ball where the receivers are and not where they're going to be. If the season gets out of hand, play Newton. Like ComfortEagle said, 2-2 is where we're supposed to be.
But the whole Hartline debate isn't why I created the topic. And it's not a lovefest! He isn't our only concern right now. Our defense has played subpar and our players are committing penalties even middle school players know better than to committ!
ComfortEagle Wrote:Really? Then explain those. Show me how it was Hartline's fault that we got all of those penalties in the Florida game. Show me how it was Hartline's fault that our defense hasn't played to their potential all year.
Please give me some good, valid points and you might have a worthy argument. Until then, you are just blowing steam and like the majority of upset UK fans, you have no clue who to blame, so you put the blame on the easiest person to pick out, and that's Hartline. It is NOT Hartline's fault if his receivers can't catch the ball. It is NOT Hartline's fault if his offensive line gets their ***** whipped and he's rushed into throwing it away or dumping it to a screen.
For all the Hartline bashers, how about you all give some ACTUAL REASONS why you want a change. And I mean real reasons, not the "Well, cuz he sucks," comments I constantly hear. Show me how and why it was Hartline's fault that we lost the Florida and Bama games. Until then you're all just full of it. And then, IF you can even do that, prove to me how bringing in another QB will solve the problem. And again, don't give me a "Well, anybody's better than Hartline," because that's not true and you all know it. I want actual reasons why the backup QB's would be better and more evidence than just the fact that they came in to UK with some stars beside their names.
OK Mr if i dont say it then its wrong, For his career he has thrown more interceptions than touchdowns! he clearly makes bad decisions under pressure. he throws behind players. watch the alabama game and the throws to randall cobb. the only time he has good games is when we play teams that havent won a game.
Hartline is horrible. He may be the worst Quarterback to ever put the pads on for UK.
You can question all you want but i am sure that if the administration thought that you could do a better job then you would be the coach. I have no problem with anyone having an opinion outside of TheVille but we all know why that is. But the thing is this coaching staff has brought us farther then anyone thought they could so let them worry about it and give them time with a young team and i bet we will be better for it.
ComfortEagle Wrote:Really? Then explain those. Show me how it was Hartline's fault that we got all of those penalties in the Florida game. Show me how it was Hartline's fault that our defense hasn't played to their potential all year.
Please give me some good, valid points and you might have a worthy argument. Until then, you are just blowing steam and like the majority of upset UK fans, you have no clue who to blame, so you put the blame on the easiest person to pick out, and that's Hartline. It is NOT Hartline's fault if his receivers can't catch the ball. It is NOT Hartline's fault if his offensive line gets their ***** whipped and he's rushed into throwing it away or dumping it to a screen.
For all the Hartline bashers, how about you all give some ACTUAL REASONS why you want a change. And I mean real reasons, not the "Well, cuz he sucks," comments I constantly hear. Show me how and why it was Hartline's fault that we lost the Florida and Bama games. Until then you're all just full of it. And then, IF you can even do that, prove to me how bringing in another QB will solve the problem. And again, don't give me a "Well, anybody's better than Hartline," because that's not true and you all know it. I want actual reasons why the backup QB's would be better and more evidence than just the fact that they came in to UK with some stars beside their names.
As I said I am sick and tired of hearing we were supposed to lose those games. Dam it I want and expect a win every single game, I expect this team to compete every single game. If its a loss I dont expect a 20 or 30 point loss a game. What you arent realizing Comfort is that basicly the ONLY time Bama had a good drive was when we gave the a short field besides the 99 yard drive which the Defense did play bad on that drive. However, you cant expect much when your off the field then two plays later are back on the field. The defence held Bama 8 for 17 on 3rd down conversions I would call that pretty decent. 4.9 yards per Carry rushing I do agree that needs to be worked on and it comes down to shutting off the cut back lanes as I discussed in a previous thread. But to hang this one on the D is unexceptable as IMO the Florida game as well...not to mention their avg scoring drive was 54 yards take out the 99 yard drive which IMO and Ingram has state should have been a safety their avg scoring drive is 45 yards which what does that mean most of their points came off turnovers. Just saying and stating points here in this game we were some what in control throught out the first half, field position was great, was running the ball effectively kept the D off balance, once we had to go away from that it was over because we had to start throwing the ball. Defense forced 4 3 and outs during the first half when seeing rest...If he only played smarter and could make the simple throws we would not have this discussion...Saying his recievers dont catch his passes, is crazy he through behind Cobb at least 4 times during the game. Game before that over throws Matthews by 15 yards 3 or 4 times...I know players make bad throws but guranteed the reason we are running the ball so much not is because they dont have faith in him...That is just being honest man, after the Miami OH game I was fine with him because he showed me something since then its been a disappointment for me...
Wildcatk23 Wrote:OK Mr if i dont say it then its wrong, For his career he has thrown more interceptions than touchdowns! he clearly makes bad decisions under pressure. he throws behind players. watch the alabama game and the throws to randall cobb. the only time he has good games is when we play teams that havent won a game.
He has 1 more INT than TD and as it's already been stated, some of those were not his fault. Hartline has a 112 passer rating right now.
You're right that it's hard to make good decisions under pressure. He's been sacked 4 times so far, and his line has been letting him down by not giving enough time to make good passes down field.
And what's with the name calling? Are we not mature enough to actually have a discussion here?
15thRegionSlamaBamma Wrote:I want and expect a win every single game, I expect this team to compete every single game. If its a loss I dont expect a 20 or 30 point loss a game.
If you truly believe this, then you can be grouped into the "UK fans who expect too much" category.
Sort of like the people who are already expecting nothing less than a National Championship this year in basketball.
Would it be great if we won it all? Yeah. Has the team proven that they are on that level yet? No.
UK football has come leaps and bounds from where it was, but that does not mean they have the talent to compete on a national level with the likes of Florida and Alabama. Not yet.
ComfortEagle Wrote:If you truly believe this, then you can be grouped into the "UK fans who expect too much" category.
Sort of like the people who are already expecting nothing less than a National Championship this year in basketball.
Would it be great if we won it all? Yeah. Has the team proven that they are on that level yet? No.
I expect this not because I expect to much, but because I actually have faith in them, I have faith that they can beat the elite teams in the SEC...We've been there done that, I understand it is a work in progress to do it on a consistent level but we are getting there, and unless we as fans expect that much of them what do they have to play for if we cant have faith they sure can not...I have had faith in Hartline before you go that route, my faith in him is just depleted and I see no hope for him to be honest...He can redeem him self with a break out week against a tough Defense then I will reevaluate what I have said...Untill he can go into a game, take over, NOT POINT FINGERS WHICH HE HAS DONE, throw a good ball on a consistent basis he will continue to be one of the worst QBs in the SEC right along with Garcia at South Carolina...Heck Greg Paulus who hasnt played in 4 years has a better QB rating....
I would love to win every game. If not win, at least be in there at the end to have a shot at winning. However, personally, and it may just be me, I don't expect UK to beat Florida and Alabama. I'd love it if they did, but I don't expect it to happen. Now, am I saying that because I don't expect to win, that justifies Hartline's mistakes? No. Not at all. These two teams are the best two in all of college football. Realistically, UK just cannot compete offensively with defense of Florida and Alabama. Defensively, Kentucky has been solid the last two seasons. It wouldn't matter who the QB is, Florida's defense isn't going to play at a slower pace, and Alabama's sure as heck isn't going to be less physical. We could have had Petyon Manning at QB for both games and still lost. The problems extend far beyond the play of the quarterback! And every problem is fixable, but we can't get too upset over play against the top 2 defensive teams in America. If the same 'ole same 'ole occurs against South Carolina, then maybe make a change. But it's not like were playing some lower level MAC school. It was FLORIDA and ALABAMA!
ComfortEagle Wrote:UK football has come leaps and bounds from where it was, but that does not mean they have the talent to compete on a national level with the likes of Florida and Alabama. Not yet.
I disagree with this statement UF I can agree with Bama I think we are just as good when we play good football I.E the entire first half up untill the last 45 seconds.
15thRegionSlamaBamma Wrote:I expect this not because I expect to much, but because I actually have faith in them, I have faith that they can beat the elite teams in the SEC...We've been there done that, I understand it is a work in progress to do it on a consistent level but we are getting there, and unless we as fans expect that much of them what do they have to play for if we cant have faith they sure can not...I have had faith in Hartline before you go that route, my faith in him is just depleted and I see no hope for him to be honest...He can redeem him self with a break out week against a tough Defense then I will reevaluate what I have said...Untill he can go into a game, take over, NOT POINT FINGERS WHICH HE HAS DONE, throw a good ball on a consistent basis he will continue to be one of the worst QBs in the SEC right along with Garcia at South Carolina...Heck Greg Paulus who hasnt played in 4 years has a better QB rating....
I also have faith that under the right circumstances, UK can beat elite teams. They've proven that with the win over LSU. However, to do that consistently is another story.
Look guys, I'm not saying Hartline is the best new thing since sliced bread. I just think he gets WAY too much of the blame for losing games, when in reality, football is a team sport, and everyone contributes to a win or loss.
Talent-wise, do I think our backups QBs are better? Yes, the probably are. However, the reasons they aren't playing is probably because they do not know the offense as well as they need to. (Or as well as Brooks wants them to)
ComfortEagle Wrote:If you truly believe this, then you can be grouped into the "UK fans who expect too much" category.
Sort of like the people who are already expecting nothing less than a National Championship this year in basketball.
Would it be great if we won it all? Yeah. Has the team proven that they are on that level yet? No.
UK football has come leaps and bounds from where it was, but that does not mean they have the talent to compete on a national level with the likes of Florida and Alabama. Not yet.
By the way thanks for disregarding all the facts in that post that you quoted which is what you asked for...Facts are Facts...
To me its simple, if you have the option to pick and choose which team to sign to, and you are a heavily sought after athelete, Surely, you wouldn't pick Kentucky over say LSU or Florida. Recruitment means everything. UK has really came up in the SEC since Mr. Brooks has taken over. Maybe our break we are looking for isn't this year or the next, but I believe we will get there in the very near Future.
ComfortEagle Wrote:Talent-wise, do I think our backups QBs are better? Yes, the probably are. However, the reasons they aren't playing is probably because they do not know the offense as well as they need to. (Or as well as Brooks wants them to)
And with that as I have said give Newton a 15 to 20 play package and work him slowly into the rotation can that be agreed upon...Im not asking for an abrut change but a slow one to get his feet wet...There is nothing wrong with that...If Hartline continues to throw on a ratio of 2 or 3 picks a game I dont think you have any other choice to look else where...Just so everyone knows we now have 4 ranked teams in a row :igiveup:
He has made a ton more bad plays than good plays. Simple as that. That is why I hate him...and because he just sucks. That's easy to see. The freshman Newton is better than him. He might not be as familiar with the offense but I believe he would execute alot better. I would rather lose with Newton than lose with Hartline.
ComfortEagle Wrote:He has 1 more INT than TD and as it's already been stated, some of those were not his fault. Hartline has a 112 passer rating right now.
You're right that it's hard to make good decisions under pressure. He's been sacked 4 times so far, and his line has been letting him down by not giving enough time to make good passes down field.
And what's with the name calling? Are we not mature enough to actually have a discussion here?
go back and read your post my friend, you started the name calling by saying we was all full of it
Im not sure that i agree with you that the defense is our biggest problem and im going to list why i think that and what i think our biggest problems are. First off the defense overall played a fairly good game against alabama with the exception of the 98 yard drive before the end of the half. I will say our defensive line play hasnt been very good and we dont seem to be able to get any pressure on the QB. My other problem with the defense is the tackling this is my biggest complaint with our defense everyone goes for the shots leading in with there shoulder, but no one harldly brings there arms wraps up and drives through their target. I want to see more tackles at the knees and waist instead of people going for these (Big Hits) that normaly dont bring anyone down.
But besides that we gave up 38 points against alabama. But lets think about it. The 1st TD came after a long kickoff and a stupid penalty (which i agree is a huge problem). Then a TD on a returned fumble. Then 2 scores off of interceptions which set alabama up with good field position. So our offense and special teams set them up with 4 of their 5 TD's. Our defense played decent as long as we were winning the field position battle(like we were in the first half) then turnovers killed late in 1st and in the 2nd half.
I personally think our biggest problem is our offensive line play. I too had the game on tivo and watched it alot. And our line doesnt create any holes and they are very lazy. Too many times our offensive line would get beat and just quit on the play. And although i dont think hartline is our biggest problem i believe he is part of the problem. He had 3 horrible passes that were intercepted and 2 led to touchdowns for alabama. I know he gets pressured a lot, but he hasnt shown ability to make the correct reads when he hasnt been pressured and im tired of his poor ball placement. Every through a reciever is reaching back for a ball, going to the ground for a ball, or going up for the ball. I could count on one hand how many times he has it recievers in the numbers or in stride.
goBIGblue82 Wrote:I personally think our biggest problem is our offensive line play. I too had the game on tivo and watched it alot. And our line doesnt create any holes and they are very lazy. Too many times our offensive line would get beat and just quit on the play. And although i dont think hartline is our biggest problem i believe he is part of the problem. He had 3 horrible passes that were intercepted and 2 led to touchdowns for alabama. I know he gets pressured a lot, but he hasnt shown ability to make the correct reads when he hasnt been pressured and im tired of his poor ball placement. Every through a reciever is reaching back for a ball, going to the ground for a ball, or going up for the ball. I could count on one hand how many times he has it recievers in the numbers or in stride.
I loved the second half of your post
I said until actual reasons were given, those bashing Hartline for no other reason than everyone else is bashing him, were full of it. I did not call anyone out.
15th, I apologize for not responding fully, as my internet went down until just now.
You proposed bringing in Newton for a series or two, but the problem I see with that is that he is currently our 3rd string QB.
If Brooks decides to bench Hartline and bring in his backup, then it would be Fiddler. And possibly even Cobb, but that would put our best receiver under center and not catching balls.
For those of you saying Newton is better, where is your proof? Have you been to the practices? I mean, unless you've been to UK's practices, which are closed, how do you know at this point in the season, that Newton is better than Hartline? Also, what happens IF Newton is brought in and he performs just as bad or worse than Hartline? Do we keep him in so he can get experience and we'll try to be better next season?
Again, it's mentioned that Hartline throws in front of or behind receivers. How many of those passes are rushed? And how comfortable does Hartline feel when his o-line has trouble blocking? Are some of Hartline's passes just flat out his fault? Yes. Are some of his bad passes the result of pressure and the pocket collapsing and throwing on the run? Yes. Not every bad pass is completely Hartline's fault.
I've pretty much extinguished my comments on this matter by now and until we can see more, I don't know what will happen.
What if UK comes out against SC and Hartline's performance is markedly better? Can we chalk the past two performances up to the fact that we were playing 2 of the best 3 teams in the nation?
And what if the performance is the same or worse? I don't know. Do we see Fiddler? He is the #2 QB. I just think it's too early to say this season is going under and that we need to bring in our young QB's and get them experience for next year. Again, on paper, our record is exactly where it should be...for the time being.
But to be extremely optimistic and looking on the bright side of things - at this point in the season UK could possibly still finish the season 10-2, and IMO that would be a great season.