I'm not sure of the KHSAA rules, but should kids be allowed to participate in athletics as an eighth grader twice? I know this is a very controversial topic so please keep respones on topic and not personal.
I assume since this is in the football section you are refering middle school sports. The KHSAA has nothing to do middle school sports. It is up to the school and or district to determine how it works.
For the MS football state playoffs they go by age.
Most players that are hold backs for athletic reasons are held back at a younger age such as in the 5th-7th grade or so. They might play on the 8th grade team for more than 1 year but grade wise still be in the 7th.
I personally do not agree with players being heldback for athletic reasons. It is done more in some areas of the state then others it seems. It is part of middle school sports you just have to deal with.
goBIGblue82 Wrote:I'm not sure of the KHSAA rules, but should kids be allowed to participate in athletics as an eighth grader twice? I know this is a very controversial topic so please keep respones on topic and not personal.
Look under frequently asked questions on the KHSAA web site, you being a coach you should know this. Corbin has been crying over the kid from Whitley repeating his 8th grade year,along with Clay and the other coaches voted them out of the conference just like you did Bell County the year before. Lets look at Corbins last years 8th grade team without mentioning any names one kid had been retained in both the forth and seventh, in all about 8 holdbacks at some point in their career,Clay Countys running back on the 7th grade football team was playing his second year as a 7th grader,and the coaches son was a holdback (how could he vote against holding back). As long as you are the right age it should not matter if you stay back in the 1st or 8th. These decisions are local site base decisions and as long as they are not promoted to the 9th grade the KHSAA don't have no authority except holdbacks can not participate in any high school sports during their hold back year. To all their own, I say. Sure would have been some good football this year Corbin,Meece and Clay all had great 7th grade teams last year,will they refuse to play these holdback teams in the playoffs.:HitWall:
cherokee Wrote:Look under frequently asked questions on the KHSAA web site, you being a coach you should know this. Corbin has been crying over the kid from Whitley repeating his 8th grade year,along with Clay and the other coaches voted them out of the conference just like you did Bell County the year before. Lets look at Corbins last years 8th grade team without mentioning any names one kid had been retained in both the forth and seventh, in all about 8 holdbacks at some point in their career,Clay Countys running back on the 7th grade football team was playing his second year as a 7th grader,and the coaches son was a holdback (how could he vote against holding back). As long as you are the right age it should not matter if you stay back in the 1st or 8th. These decisions are local site base decisions and as long as they are not promoted to the 9th grade the KHSAA don't have no authority except holdbacks can not participate in any high school sports during their hold back year. To all their own, I say. Sure would have been some good football this year Corbin,Meece and Clay all had great 7th grade teams last year,will they refuse to play these holdback teams in the playoffs.:HitWall:
Case BL-4-18- Do parents have options relative to holding
a student back in grade eight?
No, Kentucky Department of Education regulations place the
responsibility for promotion or retention of a student on school
personnel and not parents. Once âpromotedâ from the eighth
grade, a studentâs four consecutive calendar year (8 semesters)
athletic eligibility period begins.
Verifi cation as to the retention/promotino decision is the
responsibility of school personnel and may include such
things as STI records or other written documentation. Such
documentation should always be available for review until the
student graduates.
I'm not as close to this situation as you might think, i just know it's controversial. You are correct that the playing of these holdbacks are left up to the site base councils. However where you seem to be mistaken is that no parent has the authority to decide to have his son/daughter heldback or retained. Thinking rationally if its up to the site base councils and conferences I dont see how your argument holds much. Each school and middle school conference has there own regulations for this.
barrel Wrote:I assume since this is in the football section you are refering middle school sports. The KHSAA has nothing to do middle school sports. It is up to the school and or district to determine how it works.For the MS football state playoffs they go by age.
Most players that are hold backs for athletic reasons are held back at a younger age such as in the 5th-7th grade or so. They might play on the 8th grade team for more than 1 year but grade wise still be in the 7th.
I personally do not agree with players being heldback for athletic reasons. It is done more in some areas of the state then others it seems. It is part of middle school sports you just have to deal with.
I'm sorry but if you read the KHSAA rule book you will find that there are rulings involving middle school sports. Such as students can only be held back at the discretion of the school officials without any suggesting by the parents. But, yes it is up the site base councils whenever a player is retained if they are eligible to play.
Barrel is correct. The KHSAA does not regulate ANY middle school sport.
The Kentucky Middle School Football Association Rules state that no player may turn 15 before August 1st of that season in order to play as an 8th grader.
Also, no player may turn 14 before August 1st of that season in order to play as a 7th grader.
The KYMSFA is made up of over 60 schools across the state. For more information, go to
http://www.kymiddleschoolfootball.com
I spoke to a coach from a local School that is holding back 15 kids from the 6th grade to compete in the 6th grade again. These are not strugglinh kids but all the starting sports studs in the 6th grade. I would never spread rumor but since the head coach told me himself and was proud of he fact that they were being held back, just made me laugh.
Not really laughing about it but it makes me more aware of the causes.
KHSAA rules over High School sprts hence the HS of the KHSAA. Where the rules involve MS or younger stduents it is with sports that allow those students to take part. Football and Soccer are the only two sports I know which have restriction or large restrictions on playing on the varisty level.
The KHSAA has NO control over MS football.
Now what devilologist is talking is crazy. I do not know what school system (I have no clue if it is a school team) would go along with that.
I will caution bringing up that a kid played on a 7th grade or 8th grade team 2 years in a row as a hold back. I know a number of kids that were NOT hold backs yet started on 8th grade teams for more than one year.
goBIGblue82 Wrote:I'm not as close to this situation as you might think, i just know it's controversial. You are correct that the playing of these holdbacks are left up to the site base councils. However where you seem to be mistaken is that no parent has the authority to decide to have his son/daughter heldback or retained. Thinking rationally if its up to the site base councils and conferences I dont see how your argument holds much. Each school and middle school conference has there own regulations for this.
You are close to this issue, on another topic you were trying to schedule games for Corbin 7th and 8th grade teams wanting coaches with open dates to give you a pm, so don't go there. If you dropped one team from your schedule for hold backs you should let those other team s know you don.t play teams with holdbacks or have you got a preference on which teams with holdbacks you play. The key word is promotion and you are wrong again the parent does have a say but the finale decision is with the local school authority,your conference can only blackball those teams.
My friend ask your self if it is not legal why are holdbacks allowed to play in the middle school playoffs. Most parents hold their kids back at a young age so they can dominate recreation league ball and when little Johnny don't grow or develop they get lost in the shuffle (did the school official decide Little Johnny needed held back twice at Corbin once in the 4th and once in the 7th) or was it his parents ha, ha. The kid that has never been held back gets in middle school and has the size,skills and potential to maybe get a scholarship and that one year may be the difference,then he should have his extra year like those recreation league all americans did. Your site base will not let holdbacks play so I guess the rest of the world needs to follow your lead,but that is not going to happen.:worthy:
Hold backs are allowed to play in the MS state football playoffs due to some not wanting to punish a student for failing a grade. They wanted to keep something positive in the student's life.
The KMSFA adopted an age requirement instead. The age requirement has been posted above. If a student meets those age requirements then he will be able to play as a Sr in HS by KHSAA rules.
I think in the future there is a chance the KMSFA will adapt the HS rule even closer.
As far as the student that was held back in the 4th and 7th (have no clue how true that is) that would make it where the student he could not play as a Sr in HS. Why a parent would take away their child's Sr of sports does not make sense.
barrel Wrote:Hold backs are allowed to play in the MS state football playoffs due to some not wanting to punish a student for failing a grade. They wanted to keep something positive in the student's life.
The KMSFA adopted an age requirement instead. The age requirement has been posted above. If a student meets those age requirements then he will be able to play as a Sr in HS by KHSAA rules.
I think in the future there is a chance the KMSFA will adapt the HS rule even closer.
As far as the student that was held back in the 4th and 7th (have no clue how true that is) that would make it where the student he could not play as a Sr in HS. Why a parent would take away their child's Sr of sports does not make sense.
The KHSAA does not have a problem punishing a kid for failing a grade. You can not repeat a grade in high school and play any sport. I think if they are having grade problems and are falling behind, failing classes then the best course for that kid is not to be on the practice field, court or what ever, that kid needs to spend his extra time studying, doing home work or working with a tutor. I understand that some kids don't have the help at home but that is where we as coaches, teachers and parents fail. If we see a kid struggling instead of having him run through drills at practice have someone on the team that knows the subject tutor him and help him understand and complete his home work assignements. Teachers could do that same at school help these kids understand what they are doing before moving on whether that be taking an extra few minutes at the end of class and give them a little more one on one time.
I personally don't really like all the hold backs but each school systems has their own rules and regulations. As long as those are followed for every kid and they are eligible their senior year according to KHSAA then it is going to be a fact of life and will happen.
Colonel Kill: I completely agree with you. That is why I am hoping the KMSFA will adopt a modified version of the KHSAA rule. You fail you do not play along with with age. That is how the HS teams do it and I think that is fair.
With summer school among other options there truely is no reason for a student to not progress to the next grade.
I also agree with your last paragraph.
Didn't mean to post twice!
Sorry!
Barrell and Colonel,
Please believe me when I tell you that this is a very important issue to the KYMSFA. I say it is important to the KYMSFA and the main reason isn't the "competitive" part of why someone would allow this to happen (ie. hold the kid back so he is bigger, older, faster, etc. in a future grade).
The KYMSFA adopted the current rule with the intent being to honor the way the KHSAA has set up their system with regards for a player's age as a Senior in High School. Also, a majority of the members of the KYMSFA's conference rules are similar with the August 1st deadline as well.
Thank you both. Excellent discussion here and something that we all agree should put the STUDENT'S acutal needs first versus a potential athletic success or advantage.
As far as the student that was held back in the 4th and 7th (have no clue how true that is) that would make it where the student he could not play as a Sr in HS. Why a parent would take away their child's Sr of sports does not make sense.[/QUOTE]
Schools use Oct 1st as the date for starting school. KHSAA uses Aug 1st as the eligibilty date. So, if a kid has an August or September birthday they could be held back 2 times and still not be 19 before Aug 1st making them eligible their senior year.
In that case though the student would have normally entered his freshman year of college at 17 to be able to be held back 2 times and still be able to play his Sr. year.
I posted regarding holdbacks on the middle school basketball forum but will repeat myself here. Start young boys a year late in school. When they are young (5-6yrs. old) they are nearly a full year behind girls socially, emotionally, physically, and academically. This time gives them a chance to catch up and may benifit them later in athletics. Over the years, I have seen about 50% of the athletic holdbacks work out and the other 50% blow up in the face of parents and coaches.
barrel Wrote:In that case though the student would have normally entered his freshman year of college at 17 to be able to be held back 2 times and still be able to play his Sr. year.
I just had my 18th birthday when I started college and some are still 17 when they go. Not everyone realizes this when they are 5 years old. They don't see the difference until later. I could have stayed in school 2 more years. I do wish that I would have stayed one more. Another year of sports beats a year of working which is all that I would have missed. I don't expect everyone to feel the same.
I turned 18 one week before i entered college. I wasn't ready then, of course I wasn't ready two years later so I'm a bad example. Holdbacks make for very strong middle school and high school JV programs, but by the time most students are juniors and seniors the physical advantage of being older is negated. The ones I saw blow up, either didn't grow much more, or used their size advantage, but failed to develop their skills and fundementals. When you are going against kids a year older than you, a non-holdback player has to develop skills to survive. Other blow-up were in the classroom. If the holdback was for athletic reasons, kids repeat a grade and classroom material they have already mastered. They get in bad study habits, and slack off so when they are promoted, they struggle due to the year off.
I am all for a kid being placed in a position that he turns 18 during his Sr year of HS. Both of you guys are good examples of when it would have been good to hold back either early or start school later. I think for social reasons that makes sense.
My birthday is in Jan so I could have been held back and still been ok to play my Sr year. I do not think it would of been the right thing to do though.
For the record, I think the name "hawg laig" is hilarious.
I said it out loud and literally started laughing.
Good one.
(sorry to distract from the conversation)
cherokee Wrote:You are close to this issue, on another topic you were trying to schedule games for Corbin 7th and 8th grade teams wanting coaches with open dates to give you a pm, so don't go there. If you dropped one team from your schedule for hold backs you should let those other team s know you don.t play teams with holdbacks or have you got a preference on which teams with holdbacks you play. The key word is promotion and you are wrong again the parent does have a say but the finale decision is with the local school authority,your conference can only blackball those teams.[B]My friend ask your self if it is not legal why are holdbacks allowed to play in the middle school playoffs. [/B]Most parents hold their kids back at a young age so they can dominate recreation league ball and when little Johnny don't grow or develop they get lost in the shuffle (did the school official decide Little Johnny needed held back twice at Corbin once in the 4th and once in the 7th) or was it his parents ha, ha. The kid that has never been held back gets in middle school and has the size,skills and potential to maybe get a scholarship and that one year may be the difference,then he should have his extra year like those recreation league all americans did. Your site base will not let holdbacks play so I guess the rest of the world needs to follow your lead,but that is not going to happen.:worthy:
I have family that plays for corbin, but i have nothing to do with the issues between the teams that are no longer in the conference. All i know is there were teams that wouldn't agree with the rules that the conference wanted. And when i was told that our schedule wasn't full i thought i would use this site because i know there are coaches on here. I thought this topic could be argued by both sides without getting personal, but obvioulsy with you thats impossible. So last thing im going to say is i would hate for there to be an investigation down there for a kid that was retained, however he has always been a great student academically. I wonder if he has any family in the school system or anyone that has a lot of pull with the football program?
hh:
goBIGblue82 Wrote:I have family that plays for corbin, but i have nothing to do with the issues between the teams that are no longer in the conference. All i know is there were teams that wouldn't agree with the rules that the conference wanted. And when i was told that our schedule wasn't full i thought i would use this site because i know there are coaches on here. I thought this topic could be argued by both sides without getting personal, but obvioulsy with you thats impossible. So last thing im going to say is i would hate for there to be an investigation down there for a kid that was retained, however he has always been a great student academically. I wonder if he has any family in the school system or anyone that has a lot of pull with the football program?hh:
Why would you hate that there would be an investigation? Who are you gonna call--"Ghost Busters"? The khsaa doesn't want to hear petty issues concerning middle school students who have not been promoted to the 9th grade-again each school follows their own site based policy concerning this matter. What part of following local administrative policy do you not understand? If you want to report schools following their own policy, the khsaa does not take phone calls or anonymous letters-it must be submitted with your signature. It's not who you know or who you got pull with-No rules have been broken! You have kicked Bell and Whitley out of your little conference so why are you concerned with the holdback issue since you don't play teams with holdbacks... Maybe this is a jealousy issue.
Once again the KHSAA has NOTHING to do with Middle School football. So going to the KHSAA has nothing to do with it.
Jealousy is not the issue here either. The issue most have is a team of kids that in most cases would be freshman playing against kids at are a year or so younger. Many point to the fact it is not illegal and just stay out of it. For those that do not have an issue I can give them Trinity's freshman coaches number to call. Put those kids against Trinity's or other school's freshman team and see how much of an issue it is then.
Like it or not it is part of MS sports.
barrel Wrote:Once again the KHSAA has NOTHING to do with Middle School football. So going to the KHSAA has nothing to do with it.
Jealousy is not the issue here either. The issue most have is a team of kids that in most cases would be freshman playing against kids at are a year or so younger. Many point to the fact it is not illegal and just stay out of it. For those that do not have an issue I can give them Trinity's freshman coaches number to call. Put those kids against Trinity's or other school's freshman team and see how much of an issue it is then.
Like it or not it is part of MS sports.
You are correct Barrel, like it or not:please:
FF40212 Wrote:Barrell and Colonel,
Please believe me when I tell you that this is a very important issue to the KYMSFA. I say it is important to the KYMSFA and the main reason isn't the "competitive" part of why someone would allow this to happen (ie. hold the kid back so he is bigger, older, faster, etc. in a future grade).
The KYMSFA adopted the current rule with the intent being to honor the way the KHSAA has set up their system with regards for a player's age as a Senior in High School. Also, a majority of the members of the KYMSFA's conference rules are similar with the August 1st deadline as well.
Thank you both. Excellent discussion here and something that we all agree should put the STUDENT'S acutal needs first versus a potential athletic success or advantage.
Thanks and I aagree some very good discussion on the issue. I think what you guys have done with the KYMSFA is very good for middle school sports. And I am sure the KYMSFA will continue to work and strive to make the sport better and put the student first. We all want to be competitive but we should not look past what is in the best interest of our kids to do so. Coaches should be teaching life and fundamentals in an effort to have kids going on to a high school team and contributing and becoming fine young men, not holding them back just to win or dominate a league. I am sure from past converstaions you that you are one that has the kids interest in mind first and want to let you and the other guys involved with the KYMSFA know your efforts are appreciated.
The KMSFA has tried very hard to make things better. In some cases with little support and a ton of hard work from a small group.
I think that the hold backs are often not the coaches asking for it but parents doing it on their own. The parents feel they are doing the right thing though we might not agree with the reasons.
I asked this past fall about in areas were it was common to hold back players when did it happen. The thread is closed but I am sure it is still on here a page or two down. You will see parents talking about it gives their child a better chance at a scholarship. Now I am not sure how true that is but they believe it. You will also see a number of comments about it is not illegal and instead of complaining about it your school should do it. The explaination that all teams have hold backs.
I think it is true that most teams have a few players that were held back for legit reasons every year. This takes place often at the elem. school level. I know we have not had a player held back while in MS and still play. It is when you get a team with 1/3rd to 1/2 of the starters being all held back at some time there is in an issue.
I am all for the guys in this thread that were 17 when they got out of HS being held back. That is tough for a kid no matter if he plays sports or not since there are so many thing he can not take part in because of age.
There is nothing that can be done. When the parents make that decision, then what can the school do?
cherokee Wrote:Why would you hate that there would be an investigation? Who are you gonna call--"Ghost Busters"? The khsaa doesn't want to hear petty issues concerning middle school students who have not been promoted to the 9th grade-again each school follows their own site based policy concerning this matter. What part of following local administrative policy do you not understand? If you want to report schools following their own policy, the khsaa does not take phone calls or anonymous letters-it must be submitted with your signature. It's not who you know or who you got pull with-No rules have been broken! You have kicked Bell and Whitley out of your little conference so why are you concerned with the holdback issue since you don't play teams with holdbacks... Maybe this is a jealousy issue.
First of all you keep repeating that Corbin doesn't play teams that have holdbacks. That is completely a lie, there has never been anything said that you cant have a kid that has been heldback on your team. It was that you cant have a kid who is being heldback play a consecutive year at that grade level.
Secondly we didnt kick Bell or Whitley out of the conference. There was a vote on Bell county because of there many failures to abide my conference rules and what is best for the conference. And
YOUR coach was one of the ones who voted for them to be gone.
hh: As for your team you easily had the chance to stay in the conference your coach and school administration decided that it would be best not to, since you didn't want the same policies as everyone else in the conference.
Thirdly I'm sure the KHSAA would look into it if the issue was brought to there attention. I know of twice when there has been players who tried to be held back in the eighth grade, but the KHSAA investigated and those kids were not allowed. I graduated with one and I'm sure of it. If there is not JUST reason for a kid to be retained in his current grade (academic reasons) then he should be promoted to the next grade. And if you would learn how to read you would know that it is up to each site base council to decide if a kid is allowed to play during there holdback season, but it can be ruled that kid shouldnt be eligible to be retained by higher powers.