This is becoming a hot button topic for MS teams currently. Our area does not hold bakc players for athletic reasons but I do know it is common in some areas. So I have a few questions
Is it common in your area?
How many on average per year are heldback for this reason?
When it it typicaly done (ie 5th gr, 7th etc)?
Does it change how much the player plays in MS? (4 yrs of MS ball)
Does your program feed a smaller classification school? (A, AA, AAA)
As far as Pike County goes, this has always been an issue with Pikeville and Belfry for the past couple of years or so. That's everyones excuse for losing bad to them, but the average is only about 5 or 6. I know last year Pikeville had about 9 and Belfry around 10. There isn't much anyone can do about hold backs besides making them ineligible to play their repeated 8th grade year like High School does. IMO it would be more fair and good games would actually be played instead of the 62-0 games PMS and BMS have been doing for the past 3 years.
Pike County does not allow holdbacks to participate in the same grade twice. Other counties such as Letcher,Knott,Perry,Johnson,Morgan etc. allow to them play. Your better football and basketball programs on the high school level usually have at 2 or 3 holdbacks. Are these kids going to make a living playing sports? Probably not. Can these kids use sports to help them make a living? Without a doubt. By this I mean money for college. Academics are the most important thing in school but sports give kids another option for college money. Every school does it. The parents may just start their kids late or they may stay back in Kor 1st grade. Some schools do it in later grades. Do not complain if a kid is heldback when you have the same choice.
The issue of holdbacks in Letcher County is different than most counties. It seems that it's not happening at the 8th grade level. It's almost like the community knows that it turns into a problem at that level so they go ahead and do it when they are younger. For instance this year's team had only two holdback 8th graders, one of them was from Whitesburg Middle and one from MJP. These two were outstanding athletes, one was a running back and the other a two way starter on the line. However, several of the 8th graders could have been in their freshmen year but were held back somewhere along the way by parents for various reasons. I think I looked at the program and saw that there were 10 or more of the boys that were already 14 years old in football season which meant that most of them would either turn 15 before they next year started or shortly after which means that they had to have been held back somewhere along the line. It seems to be working for Coach Howard though, no problems in county with people complaining anymore since they are a consolidated team now and the fact they went 11-2 and won the Big Sandy Championship will hopefully only help our situation with holdbacks. I think it's a parents decision and that the administration of the individual counties should stay away from it. KHSAA rules states that if a child does not turn 15 years old before August 1st of his 8th grade year his eligibility is fine as long as that child is not promoted to the high school level, at which his 8 semesters of high school football begins. You cannot let the school promote that child at the endof thier 8th grade year, you must complete the papers well before then to insure his 8th grade/high school eligibility. A holdback 8th grader cannot play up on any high school team during that holdback year but they can play at their own level. The individual systems that are not letting holdbacks play would not have a leg to stand on if a parent took them to court. I for one am holding my son back in lower elementary school, hopefully it will pay off on the football field, classroom, hallways and in the community. Girls develop earlier than boys do with their maturity, I graduated at 17 and went off to college, all the freedom was way to much for me to handle and I struggled my first two years and it took me a while to develop the maturity needed for being on my own at college. I want to give my child the best opportunity to be successful and if holding him back for one repeat school year is one of those opportunities it should not be interferred with by a school board, superintendent, principal or site based committee.
If...Then Wrote:As far as Pike County goes, this has always been an issue with Pikeville and Belfry for the past couple of years or so. That's everyones excuse for losing bad to them, but the average is only about 5 or 6. I know last year Pikeville had about 9 and Belfry around 10. There isn't much anyone can do about hold backs besides making them ineligible to play their repeated 8th grade year like High School does. IMO it would be more fair and good games would actually be played instead of the 62-0 games PMS and BMS have been doing for the past 3 years.
If by Pikeville you mean Pike Independent, they sure had a rough year to be loaded down with "holdbacks." And they never scored 62...
So how many of these kids would typically play 4 yrs of MS football?
Now as far as "every school does it" That is just not true and it a very broad statement. Every school does not do it. One can not even say that schools that win HS titles do not do it to the level some are speaking of. Some schools systems make it clear that if a student repeats a grade they can not play a sport.
Holdbacks have always been an issue close to us.....
I do know of a school where the top 6-7 athletes are held back every year in 6th grade. This gives them a great boost in sports. I do know that one kid made straight A's and his parent was a school board member. He was held back.. Now granted it is the parents control and if the kid is struggling in school or socially then it is hard to argue the point.. But if the kid makes A's and is an Athlete in anything they play,,,well it is hard to argue the point of grades or socially immature....
i will tell you that the current 6th grade team at Russell had ZERO holdbacks on the football team. At Russell if you dont make the grades you set out... if you fail the year ,, you have more important things to worry about than the playbook!!!
This iwll always be a problem unless two things happen:
1. The parents of the school who witnes these actions stand up and complain...
2. The new league for middle school or the Association will limit by age the ability to have this happen,, Of course a team can not join the new Middle School association,
http://www.digitalsports.com/organizatio...71837.aspx
but then when people will not play you unless you play by the rules then it will make some eyes open... Now I know that this is not the reason why the league was formed but having someone to follow these kids are having them in a data base will help keep school shonest and keeping a kid from playing 4 years of MS Sports......
The KYMSFA did have an age limit for the playoffs. It was something like you could not turn 15 before Aug 1st. It was a scaled version of the KHSAA rule. I believe they will enforce that for all teams that are KYMSA members in the future for all games.
You can still join the KYMSFA. Th emeeting in Feb will be about things like age, playoffs and more. I expect the subject of holdback sto come up.
new o Wrote:Pike County does not allow holdbacks to participate in the same grade twice. Other counties such as Letcher,Knott,Perry,Johnson,Morgan etc. allow to them play. Your better football and basketball programs on the high school level usually have at 2 or 3 holdbacks. Are these kids going to make a living playing sports? Probably not. Can these kids use sports to help them make a living? Without a doubt. By this I mean money for college. Academics are the most important thing in school but sports give kids another option for college money. Every school does it. The parents may just start their kids late or they may stay back in Kor 1st grade. Some schools do it in later grades. Do not complain if a kid is heldback when you have the same choice.
Depends on who you are and who you know. Pike Central played an entire football season with a kid held back from Pikeville, now that others want to do it you can't.........
If...Then Wrote:As far as Pike County goes, this has always been an issue with Pikeville and Belfry for the past couple of years or so. That's everyones excuse for losing bad to them, but the average is only about 5 or 6. I know last year Pikeville had about 9 and Belfry around 10. There isn't much anyone can do about hold backs besides making them ineligible to play their repeated 8th grade year like High School does. IMO it would be more fair and good games would actually be played instead of the 62-0 games PMS and BMS have been doing for the past 3 years.
Belfry has 0 kids held back in the 6-8th grade.......
Just because a kid has not been heldback does not not mean the kid did not start late which is the same thing just at different times. And yes kids at all schools do it. Check thier ages and I will bet several kids in the senior classes are 19. I encourage them to do so. You either do it and compete or do not do it and get pummled.
It did not happen where I played nor where I have coached. I know a number of other schools that it does not happen. There is a difference between 1 or 2 kids starting late due to the fact they would either be the youngest or oldest kid in a grade. There is a difference between starting a kid late and holding a kid back later on just for athletic reasons.
There is also a difference when you get 6,7, 8 or 9 of these kids in one year. Where I played and where I have coached we did just fine without doing this. We did not get pummeled either.
My question was directed to doing it for athletic reasons and doing to a student later in his educational path. Starting a kid a year later because his birthday falls strange (oldest or youngest in a class) is a different issue. Yes people do that at all schools. But not at all schools do people holdback or start their kids a year late for athletic reasons.
Ages would be the same either way.
We had 3 players that were "behind". 1 because of where his birthday fell, and 2 because they failed a grade. Now if we had parents that held back their kids so they would be 19 and did it with on a larger scale on a regular basis there is a difference there.
The amount of players being heldback and the intent of the holdback. On a MS level it means your 8th grade team is matched up to almost a feshman team. Beechwood I know plays 8th graders on their feshman team. Kids that are not heldback or started late. They seem to do just fine.
As far as i know Belfry has no hold backs for sports. if any of the belfry players have been held back in elementary school like 2nd and 3rd. but Mr Hurley wouldnt allow that.
NEXT Wrote:Depends on who you are and who you know. Pike Central played an entire football season with a kid held back from Pikeville, now that others want to do it you can't.........
Thats what i was about to say. It might be only if you move schools that you can play held back?
every good program has mutliple kids at hold back age. some programs do it earlier than others. if you are a good athlete i think you are crazy if you do not hold back because it will do nothing but help you. as for the academic side of the arguement talked to two principles last night and both of them was saying that they were glad they held their kids back and was all for hold backs
For those that say "every good program" has hold backs or multi hold backs for a few questions.
1: are you talking MS or HS or both?
2: What percentage of starters/major players are you saying are hold backs? Out of 22 spots when you combine O and D how many of those spots are hold backs? How many on the MS level and how many on the HS level.
Now this might hold true of "good programs" on the lower levels (MS) or lower classes. I also know that a number of the programs that win and play for state titles on the HS level do not have kids that are holdbacks. This is not a guess on my part. I know schools like Trinity, St X, Male, Lex Cath, Highlands and a number of others this is not the case.
Now what some say are good programs on the MS level. Well when 8th graders are playing against freshman teams then your program better be good.
If...Then Wrote:Thats what i was about to say. It might be only if you move schools that you can play held back?
Nope. The rule was clear.........NO HOLDBACKS
New Harlan started this trend in our county. The kids are held back in the 5th, 6th, or 7th grade. If a parent decides to Hold a child back, its their right! Who can tell me whats best for my child. I agree with Lambert. I dont want my child going to off to college at the grand old age of 17.
Although New Harlan has had holdbacks over the past few years, they weren't the ones to start the holdback trend in Harlan County. This has been going on for many years and probably started back in the early 80's. How many standout athletes over the last twenty five years in Harlan County can you name that weren't holdbacks? Not many at all. Very few if any. Even Harlan Independents above average athletes over the years were all holdbacks. This goes all the way back to the 80's. Anyone who once was 17 wouldn't want their 17 year old child to go off to college. One additional year makes a huge difference. The maturity issue weighs heavy also. There is many benefits and legitimate reasons for a parent to decide to hold their child back, too many to list. Just my thoughts on the situation.
Having a child held back is a parents right but it should done earlier in the school system.. If you as aparent do not want your child to graduate at 17 then hold them back...but dont wait to middle school to do it, Before is 6th grade is the best time as the classes are still basic instructional..And for this arguement,,, you as a parent can determine at what age your son will graduate....Make changes early in the system and not during the middle school years....
Third or fourth grade is a great time to repeat.
DEVILOLOGIST Wrote:Having a child held back is a parents right but it should done earlier in the school system.. If you as aparent do not want your child to graduate at 17 then hold them back...but dont wait to middle school to do it, Before is 6th grade is the best time as the classes are still basic instructional..And for this arguement,,, you as a parent can determine at what age your son will graduate....Make changes early in the system and not during the middle school years....
Third or fourth grade is a great time to repeat.
I don't know what difference it makes what grade they are held back in. I can see the argument that holding them back when they are younger and taking basic classes, but I can also see the argument that holding them back during middle school when they have a chance to master those crazy portfolios. It's a hot topic for sure. If a parent chooses to do this, I suggest talking to others who have held theirs back and research it first. I can name all kinds of advantages for the kid. What are some of the disadvantages for a kid held back? Just to be clear, in our school system, if you fail a grade, you can't participate in athletics that year.
I see no issue with someone starting the child later or holding them back so the student would NOT be a 17yr old college freshman. That makes complete sense. There is a number of things the student would not be able to do with their peers just because of the age.
The thing I asking about is holding a student back so they would turn 19 during their Sr for athletic reasons. Areas holding back 6+ kids for athletic reasons so it is like MS teams playing against Freshman teams.
Where some people are taking issue with it is in an example like. Johnie and his 5 friends seem to be real good. They are in the 7th or 8th grade. If we hold Johnie and his friends back for one more year then they will be just studs.
Mama Bear Wrote:I don't know what difference it makes what grade they are held back in. I can see the argument that holding them back when they are younger and taking basic classes, but I can also see the argument that holding them back during middle school when they have a chance to master those crazy portfolios. It's a hot topic for sure. If a parent chooses to do this, I suggest talking to others who have held theirs back and research it first. I can name all kinds of advantages for the kid. What are some of the disadvantages for a kid held back? Just to be clear, in our school system, if you fail a grade, you can't participate in athletics that year.
My point was this,, it is tough to watch your child struggle in school.. My son was also held back in the third grade because he started school at 5 and struggled in class. He was not grasping the concepts as the other kids did... So we held him back...
We start portfolios at the 4th grade and this is an adjusment in itself,, I KNOW they are a headache... But I also look at holding my son back in the third grade will still affect him as he will be a 17 year old senior. and playing football at 17 his senior year.... He turned 12 in September so he started this year as an 11 year old.
I know that it is the parents choice and I agree,, that is their choice... I dont have a problem with that.......
What I was saying is that if it takes a child getting to the 8th grade before his parents realize he will be graduating HS at 17...well if this does not stand out to you until then ,, then maybe your child is mature enough where he is.....
This thread is directed toward parents and schools that HOLD back their children for nothing other than for making you child a SPORTS STUD.....
If you got to see the Devils 6th grade play this year,, imagine if number 2 was held back a year and played against 6th graders next year........
It would make him a STUD in his class but do nothing for him other wise than to have kids who go to school with him think bad about him for not passing......
We had a long talk with our child at third grade and made sure he could handle a repeat year,, and nothing was ever said about sports int he conversation.....
OH and yes there is a school that holds back the top 6-7 athletes every year.. If you could find a way to review the records of the kids were held back every year,, I would almost guarentee that ALL of them are on a school sports team today !!!!!!
Do you think an extra year of middle school will better prepare a child for high school academically as well as athletically? Wouldn't Johnnie and his stud friends be more physically apt to compete on the high school level if they have an extra year? Boys develop slower than girls. They mature much much slower than girls (if ever). There are KHSAA guidelines as to how old a child can be to participate their senior year. If those are the state guidelines, then I don't know what difference it would make as to when a child could be held back. It's up to the board of education in each district whether they will allow "hold backs". If a board chooses not to then they shouldn't complain about those who do. A lot of successful programs do. I'll use Bell County (undefeated) as an example since I have them fresh on my mind . (Our Harlan County's Freshmen team beat them last night.)
i was told that bell county the state runner-up had several hold backs on there team. it would surprise me. if they didnt they had the first 13 year old kid with an extremely large tattoo.
All of Bell's players were under the age requirement for the playoffs. They only played about 13 kids. Those two teams (Grant and Bell) earned a good deal of respect from each other. Now there was one kid with a very large tattoo on his arm but now of days that does not mean a whole lot.
NEXT Wrote:Belfry has 0 kids held back in the 6-8th grade.......
Actually, Belfry has a young man who transferred from Johns Creek and was held back while at Johns Creek. He played this season for Belfry.. I guess he knew somebody too huh?
hawkhead Wrote:Actually, Belfry has a young man who transferred from Johns Creek and was held back while at Johns Creek. He played this season for Belfry.. I guess he knew somebody too huh?
He was held back at Johns Creek before he came to Belfry, correct? What would have been the appropriate course of action?