This is interesting topic. I wonder just how much does success at the middle school level translate to the high school level. Why don't we do some research and see how past state champions, finalists, and even semi-finalists at the MS level have faired during their HS careers.
No it most definitely does not. There is an enormous amount of development that occurs between 13 and 17. I find kids who excel in MS often have a maturity advantage that disappears in HS.
Look at Bowling Green and say it doesnt, How about Caldwell Co, How about Corbin, How about Pulaski Co.
I think the answer is yes it can, if the right systems are in place in both HS and MS level.
Looking at it from an individual success standpoint, to me, it would be really hard to tell. Age, physical and mental maturity, team they are on, coaching and system, can all factor into it. Some kids quit growing and some hit a growth spurt during this time. For team success that would be interesting.
plantmanky Wrote:Look at Bowling Green and say it doesnt, How about Caldwell Co, How about Corbin, How about Pulaski Co.
I think the answer is yes it can, if the right systems are in place in both HS and MS level.
Look at Ryle. Profound success at MS, Freshman and JV levels with mediocrity at Varsity.
Absolutely Not, but Absolutely it can, depending on the system and coherency of the staffs and the head coach. It takes a total program for middle school to translate to high school success. A lot of factors come into play but I do believe that it is possible.
I think it does if the high school and middle school coaches work together and run the same system obviously the middle school needs to start with the very basics of the system and then add to it every year so by the time they hit the varsity stage your not wasting your summer practices putting in the basics of your offense but perfecting them and working on the more complex stuff. It's worked for John Hardin even when bluegrass struggled to win a game two and three years ago
Bigdaddy6408 Wrote:I think it does if the high school and middle school coaches work together and run the same system obviously the middle school needs to start with the very basics of the system and then add to it every year so by the time they hit the varsity stage your not wasting your summer practices putting in the basics of your offense but perfecting them and working on the more complex stuff. It's worked for John Hardin even when bluegrass struggled to win a game two and three years ago
this
Ryle's program is young as far as MS so the kids that were part of that success are now frosh and jv. Bowling Green has done very well and they don't run the same stuff as the HS. So it can but it's not a lock. The other factor is some ms are loaded with older kids and that even out at the HS level.
Just as an example I will list some of the teams that I know have had success in Middle School since they began playing a state tournament. Bell, County, John Hardin, Bowling Green, Somerset, Meade County, Rowan County, Corbin, Caldwell County, Elizabethtown Pulaski County, Wayne County, Prestonsburg, Williamsburg, Russelville, Frankfort, Raceland, Louisville Feeders such as Farnsley, JCTMS, and CAL, Lexington Catholic, Belfry, Johnson Central, North Laurel, SW Pulaski, and Whitley county. SW Pulaski and Whitley County struggled this year but their success at the middle school would be with players that are just freshmen and sophomores right now.
In my opinion it does help to have a successful middle school program, however when a county has multiple schools an athlete can choose to go to can slow the high school growth. Then you also have some kids who lose interest when hey get in high school, most find girls, classes, and sadly drugs that derail what should be a strong HS program.
Plus some students don't get along with the coaching staff so they just quit, I know a lot of schools in Louisville have athletes by the ton but they don't play because they either can't handle it in the classroom or just don't have the passion for football anymore.
But I do think the success does transfer for the high schools that get involved with their freshmen as soon as they can.
Last year's 2012 KHSAA State Championships included 7 of the 12 teams being fed by KMSFA programs.
There were 17 of the final 24 that are fed by KMSFA programs.
I would say that's a pretty good "translation" if you ask me....
KMSFA2 Wrote:Last year's 2012 KHSAA State Championships included 7 of the 12 teams being fed by KMSFA programs.
There were 17 of the final 24 that are fed by KMSFA programs.
I would say that's a pretty good "translation" if you ask me....
What exactly do you mean....fed? 7 of 12, 17 of 24 mean only the other teams didn't take part in middle school playoffs. When was 1st year of championships? Who were the champions? How have/are those teams doing when they reach JR/SR years?
@
footballfever - great questions!
My numbers I posted are simply facts. Of the schools who reached the finals and semi-finals in the KHSAA tournament, those were the numbers of high schools who have middle school feeders who participate in the KMSFA.
As for your other question, our first state championships were in 2008. Bluegrass Middle (which feeds John Hardin HS) won the 8th grade over Bell County. Bowling Green Junior High School won the 7th grade.
Again, is that not "translation"?
KMSFA2 Wrote:@footballfever - great questions!
My numbers I posted are simply facts. Of the schools who reached the finals and semi-finals in the KHSAA tournament, those were the numbers of high schools who have middle school feeders who participate in the KMSFA.
As for your other question, our first state championships were in 2008. Bluegrass Middle (which feeds John Hardin HS) won the 8th grade over Bell County. Bowling Green Junior High School won the 7th grade.
Again, is that not "translation"?
Yes, you could say that but what the non traditional football schools that have never won a state title? Sure the Bowling Greens, John Hardin's will have success.I see the same schools over and over at the top of the high school polls.
Killer in the Sun Wrote:Yes, you could say that but what the non traditional football schools that have never won a state title? Sure the Bowling Greens, John Hardin's will have success.I see the same schools over and over at the top of the high school polls.
Think theres maybe a reason for that?
Of course, many successful middle school athletes eventually succeed at subsequent levels, but as a general rule, no, middle school success doesn't necessarily translate to high school success in the game of football.
I've coached high school football for about 30 years, and personally, I tend to prefer working with freshmen who either haven't played the game at all, or they have played only a year or two before ninth grade.
Usually, those kids who forego the 6-8 years of "feeder system football" taught them from ages 6-14 have far fewer "bad habits" that have to be corrected . . . and they also tend to have far fewer "world championships" and "all state" trophies on their mantles. Therefore, they are usually much more receptive to actual coaching, and they're often more eager/willing to make the changes necessary to succeed.
That's just my experience over the past few decades, though. I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions. These are teenagers we're talking about, after all.
Football is at least 75% coaching it doesn't matter how much talent you have if you have not got a coach you want be successful . The best example of this is Dudley Hilton's first year at Bell his eight grade team lost to Corbin something like 52-0, When they was seniors they beat Corbin 56-0.
Middle school can be a big tool if coaches don't let their ego get in the way. To many coaches worry about wins rather than developing players. Lot of middle schoolers sitting on their helmets. Coaches should play as many kids as possible. Large middle schools should platoon to keep as many kids out as possible. Lot of kids are run off because they are not given an opportunity. When the 15 year old 8th grader stops growing the 14 year old who has surpassed him physically is no where to be found because he did not enjoy sitting on his helmet watching 12 kids play both ways and get all the snaps.
just speaking from one schools perspective ! we use the same wording and play calls as our high school does ..we teach our middle school lineman the same techniques as the h.s.our pass routes are the same.... our high school coaches love that they can concentrate more on effort and execution than on teaching the basics,,,while our circumstances may be different than some this approach has lead to our high scholl having some success with a freshman sophmore dominated team..
E's Army Wrote:Middle school can be a big tool if coaches don't let their ego get in the way. To many coaches worry about wins rather than developing players. Lot of middle schoolers sitting on their helmets. Coaches should play as many kids as possible. Large middle schools should platoon to keep as many kids out as possible. Lot of kids are run off because they are not given an opportunity. When the 15 year old 8th grader stops growing the 14 year old who has surpassed him physically is no where to be found because he did not enjoy sitting on his helmet watching 12 kids play both ways and get all the snaps.
I somewhat disagree. Winning matters. How many kids do you know that want to play for a team that doesn't win? It is a huge recruiting tool just to get your boys out from your own school that may not play. The kids that don't play often need to learn to embrace the scout team roles. Just because they're on the scout team in middle school doesn't mean that's where they'll be in high school. It's about hard work and outworking the guy next to you. You're not doing them any favors by giving them gifts early just to keep them happy in my opinion. Life doesn't work that way, why should football? I know that our 2011 scout team could have made a very deep run in the middle school playoffs. Those guys won that title for us that year because our starters would literally play the best team they faced all year at practice every day. They worked their tails off and some of them are getting varsity reps right now because of their work ethic, not because we just let them on the field in middle school to keep the numbers up. Football is a sport where you have to earn and work for what you want. It's the same as life.
Winning is the only thing you can defend as a coach when you talk to parents and players. You can't logically defend that this kid may turn out, but he isn't nearly good enough to start. You then cheat the harder working and more talented kids.